seemorenuts 0 Posted October 15, 2007 Share Posted October 15, 2007 I guess Frist had a point then? Seriously, I hate absolute. It was the first site I ever deposited on and the service was really bad.When I'd have a problem and explain to them in agonzing detail, one technique they'd use is just to keep referring to other staff, then delaying, finally they'd ask, "what was your problem again?" whereupon I'd refer them to the email history, and they'd hibernate again.I could never successfully even get a $50 referral for my best friend and I, as absolute would ask us for photos of both of us together, can you imagine, for a measly $50? That's just a minor story that I can recall now...Anyhow, the point here is that I just don't think AP is unique in this regard, and though I don't mean to pick on pokerstars, which is a pretty nice site; I had posted accurately at FCP what I had heard about 6-12 months ago about two reasonable, rational players telling me at a B&M casino (Rama) that they saw a live game showing all the hole cards for about 5 minutes as observers that WAS NOT A REPLAY. However, some fcpers suggested it was a replay, etc. and the thread died. Those two players had no beef with PS, nor do I.What I can say is having some passing acquaintance with the owners of Cryptologic, I get the impression that their software is super solid (by that I mean probably they've shown some proof of an absence of backdoor stuff, maybe this is by definition impossible, lol). Anyone have evidence to the contrary? Please post. BTW, I have never, ever opened or played an account that used Cryptologic software. I know there are bugs on the old mansion software, and ongame software (but we are not talking about bugs, I get it).I haven't seen the stream of HH posted except on this thread, and the ones on this thread are not sufficient to prove anything to me.I am really surprised at Zach's take, and after Absolute dies a deserved death, I hope Zach can come back in a year and reassess his posts here. There's just a simple rebuttal, two words: naturalistic fallacy.As for that ban from Imperial Palace avatar, could you kindly provide links to this possibly amusing story? Zach? Link to post Share on other sites
vbnautilus 48 Posted October 15, 2007 Share Posted October 15, 2007 Here's anotherStage #896601955 Tourney ID 1883389 Holdem Multi Normal Tournament No Limit $30 - 2007-09-12 21:22:30.013 (ET)Table: 13 (Real Money) Seat #9 is the dealerSeat 1 - BIGREDAK86 ($9061 in chips)Seat 3 - POTRIPPER ($24545 in chips)Seat 2 - JOSIAHW ($7277 in chips)Seat 5 - POKERME420 ($12350 in chips)Seat 7 - DZ00NUTS ($7952 in chips)Seat 8 - KOOLKEITH13 ($8560 in chips)Seat 4 - POTR0AST ($9865 in chips)Seat 9 - SCARFACE_79 ($10320 in chips)BIGREDAK86 - Posts small blind $15JOSIAHW - Posts big blind $30*** POCKET CARDS ***Dealt to POTRIPPER [4h 8s]Dealt to JOSIAHW [Kc Kh]Dealt to POTR0AST [Qc 8h]Dealt to POKERME420 [Js Kd]Dealt to DZ00NUTS [7h 6d]Dealt to KOOLKEITH13 [8d 4c]Dealt to SCARFACE_79 [4s Ah]POTRIPPER - Calls $30POTR0AST - FoldsPOKERME420 - Calls $30DZ00NUTS - Calls $30KOOLKEITH13 - FoldsSCARFACE_79 - Calls $30BIGREDAK86 - FoldsJOSIAHW - Raises $285 to $315POTRIPPER - FoldsPOKERME420 - Calls $285DZ00NUTS - FoldsSCARFACE_79 - Folds*** FLOP *** [Qd 3s Jd]JOSIAHW - Bets $700POKERME420 - FoldsJOSIAHW - returned ($700) : not called Link to post Share on other sites
seemorenuts 0 Posted October 15, 2007 Share Posted October 15, 2007 Here's anotherStage #896601955 Tourney ID 1883389 Holdem Multi Normal Tournament No Limit $30 - 2007-09-12 21:22:30.013 (ET)Table: 13 (Real Money) Seat #9 is the dealerSeat 1 - BIGREDAK86 ($9061 in chips)Seat 3 - POTRIPPER ($24545 in chips)Seat 2 - JOSIAHW ($7277 in chips)Seat 5 - POKERME420 ($12350 in chips)Seat 7 - DZ00NUTS ($7952 in chips)Seat 8 - KOOLKEITH13 ($8560 in chips)Seat 4 - POTR0AST ($9865 in chips)Seat 9 - SCARFACE_79 ($10320 in chips)BIGREDAK86 - Posts small blind $15JOSIAHW - Posts big blind $30*** POCKET CARDS ***Dealt to POTRIPPER [4h 8s]Dealt to JOSIAHW [Kc Kh]Dealt to POTR0AST [Qc 8h]Dealt to POKERME420 [Js Kd]Dealt to DZ00NUTS [7h 6d]Dealt to KOOLKEITH13 [8d 4c]Dealt to SCARFACE_79 [4s Ah]POTRIPPER - Calls $30POTR0AST - FoldsPOKERME420 - Calls $30DZ00NUTS - Calls $30KOOLKEITH13 - FoldsSCARFACE_79 - Calls $30BIGREDAK86 - FoldsJOSIAHW - Raises $285 to $315POTRIPPER - FoldsPOKERME420 - Calls $285DZ00NUTS - FoldsSCARFACE_79 - Folds*** FLOP *** [Qd 3s Jd]JOSIAHW - Bets $700POKERME420 - FoldsJOSIAHW - returned ($700) : not calledyou must have pasted the wrong hand, what am I missing here? Link to post Share on other sites
RDog 0 Posted October 15, 2007 Share Posted October 15, 2007 Well, no one ever said the guy was the smartest person ever. In fact, we know for a fact that these people are pretty stupid. Any person with half a brain could have used these accounts without ever being detected. 2 hands don't show anything when compared to the multitude of others. I mean, it could be the dumb ass thinking that raise/folding will make it less likely that people will know he is cheating. A stupid person might think that if you lose 1 pot in 10 that no one will suspect them of anything.Also, why is he limp/folding there (when the guy has KK) when he never folds? Link to post Share on other sites
DoinSublime 0 Posted October 15, 2007 Share Posted October 15, 2007 He wants them to slowplay their big pairs for a cheap priceThis is probably it VB. Remember he doesn't necessarily know anything about poker, he could be hoping to hit a cheap flop with his 84 and if he hits 2pr+, he knows he could stack someone elses big pair. Link to post Share on other sites
seemorenuts 0 Posted October 15, 2007 Share Posted October 15, 2007 BTW, you can figure this out mathematcally, but I know people will scoff anyhow.Even if AP did nothing wrong, and even if no site in the world did anything wrong--user organized boycotts based on the demand for better 'conditions' would work (it's a function of how much cooperation you get, so if you scoff at this post, you are basically 'destroying player/consumer/user solidarity') if you get the momentum and volition. These rotating boycotts can be random yet organized... A reasonable profit margin in this industry should be less than 2%, what do you think it is now for the more profitable sites? Ginormous.So we'd ask for more accountability, but mostly just lower rake... we'd also ask for less advertising, fewer bonuses (that's just a ploy, lower rake works better), etc.E.g., the revelation of complete HH is not the boo boo, doing it with real names instead of numeric labels is the mistake. This is related to acountability, I'm not against exposing some aspects of HH on rare occasion.After all, if you see enough of them, you might learn that unusual series of plays that seem unlikely is always the characteristic of the winner... makes sense, right? Link to post Share on other sites
seemorenuts 0 Posted October 15, 2007 Share Posted October 15, 2007 Let me simplify on the last post I made.We should just use this event as an excuse to have a mass pullout of any one particular site, maybe two.Show the sites who's boss--we are, the players.Then demand .1% rake, or whatever will keep them in business but lean...Wha ha ha ha ha... I'm pure evil... Link to post Share on other sites
Fade2241 0 Posted October 15, 2007 Share Posted October 15, 2007 Anyone with half a brain who combed thru the HH posted on p5's can figure out this dude knew the other's hole cards. If these guys were smart, they would have used this info and just been considered a 'sick player' but they completely ****ed that up. Now AP is done, and online poker in general is going to take a hit if this hits a big media market which i'm sure it eventually will. Link to post Share on other sites
vbnautilus 48 Posted October 15, 2007 Share Posted October 15, 2007 This is probably it VB. Remember he doesn't necessarily know anything about poker, he could be hoping to hit a cheap flop with his 84 and if he hits 2pr+, he knows he could stack someone elses big pair.I guess so, but it does seem pretty unlikely that you will see an unraised flop with all three QQ, JJ, and AK against you. I guess that's rdog's point. Link to post Share on other sites
vbnautilus 48 Posted October 15, 2007 Share Posted October 15, 2007 you must have pasted the wrong hand, what am I missing here?Well I figure if you see KK you expect him to raise, so you either limp/call or just fold. Limp/fold seems pretty strange to me if you can see the hole cards. I guess people are saying it's on the off chance the guy with kings limps, but that seems pretty odd to me. Link to post Share on other sites
RDog 0 Posted October 15, 2007 Share Posted October 15, 2007 Well I figure if you see KK you expect him to raise, so you either limp/call or just fold. Limp/fold seems pretty strange to me if you can see the hole cards. I guess people are saying it's on the off chance the guy with kings limps, but that seems pretty odd to me.It has also been pointed out that the "Hole Card IP" might have not been at the table for a short period of time so its possible those hands he was playing blind. Poor guy. Poker is tough then. Link to post Share on other sites
FCP Bob 1,312 Posted October 15, 2007 Share Posted October 15, 2007 Let me simplify on the last post I made.We should just use this event as an excuse to have a mass pullout of any one particular site, maybe two.Show the sites who's boss--we are, the players.Then demand .1% rake, or whatever will keep them in business but lean...Wha ha ha ha ha... I'm pure evil...You're a unique one and you know from our dealings at the FCP cardroom that I have no problem with you but you aren't evil in this suggestion but totally delusional.The costs involved in running an online cardroom are much much higher than most players suspect. Link to post Share on other sites
mase_gotsem 0 Posted October 15, 2007 Share Posted October 15, 2007 But there are actually several times where he calls or raises preflop when people have big hands, and then folds to a pf raise. Seems pretty odd to me if he knows they have high pairs he can expect them to raise. found an example:I don't get it, why raise pf with 84 when you are against QQ, JJ, and AK.. unless you want to build a pot and hope for diamonds, but then why fold?maybe trying to play under the radar which he did a poor job ?? Link to post Share on other sites
cubsfan44 0 Posted October 15, 2007 Share Posted October 15, 2007 The low user id suggest its an admin account,they are playing from very similar IPs both from Costa Rica,The observer account could have been the one with access to hole cards and was giving all the info to the POTRIPPER account.thats my take on it anywayI cant see anyone that was smart enough to hack AP being dumb enough to allow AP to have their actual IP address. Link to post Share on other sites
Fade2241 0 Posted October 15, 2007 Share Posted October 15, 2007 I cant see anyone that was smart enough to hack AP being dumb enough to allow AP to have their actual IP address.I think you're right. But I don't think it's a hacker, I think it's someone from the inside of the company. And a stupid somebody at that. Link to post Share on other sites
seemorenuts 0 Posted October 15, 2007 Share Posted October 15, 2007 You're a unique one and you know from our dealings at the FCP cardroom that I have no problem with you but you aren't evil in this suggestion but totally delusional.The costs involved in running an online cardroom are much much higher than most players suspect.I was getting randomly greedy (and joking too), of course it wouldn't be .1% rake, unless you had other revenue streams such as sports betting. ... but it wouldn't be 10-20% margins either... right now what makes a site sticky is a bit of a mystery to me.When friends just say, well, I'm happy where I am, that can mean a number of things (besides 'hey, don't bother me) but most of those things are pretty unimportant to me in comparison, for example, why the GUI is so high priority to some people, the part that has nothing to do with functionality or reliability... Link to post Share on other sites
dabetka 0 Posted October 15, 2007 Share Posted October 15, 2007 Anyone else wondering what will happen when the U.S. govt. gets their hands on this? I don't know if anyone can ever say that they are 100% sure online poker is not rigged somewhere down the line, but this looks like overwhelming evidence to me that something happened here that was not legit. If I had to guess, this is going to open up a whole can of worms for online poker. This might have already been posted (sorry) but how long ago did these tourney's take place? Link to post Share on other sites
Fade2241 0 Posted October 15, 2007 Share Posted October 15, 2007 how long ago did these tourney's take place?2007-09-12 Link to post Share on other sites
timwakefield 68 Posted October 15, 2007 Share Posted October 15, 2007 Cliffs notes on the new developments (i.e. I know what happened a month ago or w/e, what's the new stuff?)? Link to post Share on other sites
NoSup4U 0 Posted October 15, 2007 Share Posted October 15, 2007 Cliffs notes on the new developments (i.e. I know what happened a month ago or w/e, what's the new stuff?)?read the link in the first post in the thread, its a good summary.Mark Link to post Share on other sites
fighter 4 Posted October 15, 2007 Share Posted October 15, 2007 *** POCKET CARDS ***Dealt to KOOLKEITH13 [Jh Kh]Dealt to SCARFACE_79 [6c 10s]Dealt to BIGREDAK86 [3h 4h]Dealt to JOSIAHW [9h 6h]Dealt to POTRIPPER [Qc 10c]Dealt to POTR0AST [9c 4c]Dealt to POKERME420 [Qh Jd]Dealt to DZ00NUTS [4d 3d]POKERME420 - Raises $200 to $200DZ00NUTS - FoldsKOOLKEITH13 - Calls $200SCARFACE_79 - FoldsBIGREDAK86 - FoldsJOSIAHW - FoldsPOTRIPPER - Calls $175POTR0AST - Folds*** FLOP *** [8d 6d 3s]POTRIPPER - ChecksPOKERME420 - Bets $250KOOLKEITH13 - Raises $850 to $850POTRIPPER - Raises $5700 to $5700POKERME420 - FoldsKOOLKEITH13 - FoldsPOTRIPPER - returned ($4850) : not calledI love this hand. It is almost as good as him calling an all in with ten high.Stage #896976330 Tourney ID 1883389 Holdem Multi Normal Tournament No Limit $4500 - 2007-09-13 01:43:48 (ET)Table: 14 (Real Money) Seat #3 is the dealerSeat 3 - POTRIPPER ($765740 in chips)Seat 8 - CRAZYMARCO ($214260 in chips)POTRIPPER - Ante $450CRAZYMARCO - Ante $450POTRIPPER - Posts small blind $2250CRAZYMARCO - Posts big blind $4500*** POCKET CARDS ***Dealt to CRAZYMARCO [9h 2h]POTRIPPER - Calls $2250CRAZYMARCO - Checks*** FLOP *** [4h Kd Kh]CRAZYMARCO - ChecksPOTRIPPER - Bets $9000CRAZYMARCO - Calls $9000*** TURN *** [4h Kd Kh] [7s]CRAZYMARCO - ChecksPOTRIPPER - Bets $13500CRAZYMARCO - All-In(Raise) $200310 to $200310POTRIPPER - Calls $186810*** RIVER *** [4h Kd Kh 7s] [5s]*** SHOW DOWN ***POTRIPPER - Shows [10c 9c] (One pair, kings)CRAZYMARCO - Shows [9h 2h] (One pair, kings)POTRIPPER Collects $428520 from main pot Link to post Share on other sites
RDog 0 Posted October 15, 2007 Share Posted October 15, 2007 From Nat on 2+2:I don't know if this has been mentioned, but it is kinda an important point for confirming the relationship between #363 and POTRIPPER.The first two hands were before #363 opened the table.13 896525124 2007-09-12 21:01:18 10000 10000 0 START Seat 3 - POTRIPPER ($10000 in chips)13 896525124 2007-09-12 21:01:22 10000 10000 0 TABLEUSER Dealt to POTRIPPER [5d 7c]13 896525124 2007-09-12 21:01:35 10000 10000 0 TABLEINFO POTRIPPER - FoldsThen13 896532629 2007-09-12 21:02:00 10000 10000 0 START Seat 3 - POTRIPPER ($10000 in chips)13 896532629 2007-09-12 21:02:04 10000 10000 0 TABLEUSER Dealt to POTRIPPER [7d 2s]13 896532629 2007-09-12 21:02:09 10000 10000 0 TABLEINFO POTRIPPER - Folds5 seconds after he folded 72o, #363 joined the table and he started playing like a genius maniac.He didn't fold another hand preflop for 20 minutes Link to post Share on other sites
looshle 6 Posted October 15, 2007 Share Posted October 15, 2007 is pocketfives down for everybody else? if so, this is very very fishy. Link to post Share on other sites
RDog 0 Posted October 15, 2007 Share Posted October 15, 2007 is pocketfives down for everybody else? if so, this is very very fishy.Yup Link to post Share on other sites
vbnautilus 48 Posted October 15, 2007 Share Posted October 15, 2007 is pocketfives down for everybody else? if so, this is very very fishy.it's down, but I don't think that's related. i guess we'll see if it comes back up w/o the ap threads! Link to post Share on other sites
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