Something Bad Is Gonna Happen To Ap

[20TN40 0]

If the website didn't give me a headache, I'd post the "official" statement from AP. But basically it says they found nothing..........no collusion, no chip dumping, no superuser, no one seeing whole cards, etc. The statement implies that they have found no wrongdoing and that everyone should just move on and act like it never happened.If that was my $20K, I'd be telling it to anyone that would listen because their statement says TOUGH SHIT! If those of you siding with AP and their actions (or lack thereof) would just go read the statement they issued, I think you could see what RDog is having a coronary about.

[Zach6668 513]

ok but they said they went over all the HH and still found nothing wrong no cheating/collusion ?

Ack, I'm telling you guys. AP isn't going to just come out and say it.For one...

Dear Zach ,Thank you for letting us know about what you witnessed at the tables. A single incident of collusion is often difficult to prove conclusively, withthe exception of the most obvious cases. When we are confronted with thepossibility of collusion between two players, we will not only review the gamein question, but also all incidents of the suspected player’s actions together.We look into the player’s history to analyze their play in the past, and todetermine if other players are involved. At times we can prove conclusively that cheating occurred. In most cases we canconclusively prove that the players were definitely not cheating, and whatappeared, as collusion to one in the game, or observing the table, is merely acoincidence. If we notice a pattern of unusual activity then we will take action. It isagainst our policy to reveal any actions taken against another account. Therefore, the actions taken against those suspected of cheating cannot bediscussed with anyone but the account holder. We want to thank you again forbringing this possible collusion activity to our attention. Please feel free to contact us if you have any further questions or comments.If there is anything else we can assist you with please let us know.Sincerely,JoseTeam Absolute ~ Security & Control DepartmentPhone: 1.877.887.6537"To Continue to be the best and most trusted"

So, this is an email I got back from the security department when I emailed them about a couple donks who could have possibly been colluding at one of my tables. Standard awful attempts you'd see at any site.I just wanted to point out the bolded part.They already told us that they aren't going to make investigation findings public...

[RDog 0]

If those of you siding with AP and their actions (or lack thereof) would just go read the statement they issued, I think you could see what RDog is having a coronary about.

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL. I'm dyyyyyyyyyyyying.

[Zach6668 513]

Bleh.I just don't care.All of the 2p2ers and anyone who wants to, please pull your money off of AP.I'll continue to make money at an even softer site.Done.

[RDog 0]

Ack, I'm telling you guys. AP isn't going to just come out and say it.For one...So, this is an email I got back from the security department when I emailed them about a couple donks who could have possibly been colluding at one of my tables. Standard awful attempts you'd see at any site.I just wanted to point out the bolded part.They already told us that they aren't going to make investigation findings public...

Ummmmm.......they aren't? They made a press release public statement saying they found nothing. LOL.

[Zach6668 513]

Yeah, until about 5 mins ago, I was unaware of said public statement.:DI stay, 2p2ers go. Works well for me.

[20TN40 0]

Bleh.I just don't care.All of the 2p2ers and anyone who wants to, please pull your money off of AP.I'll continue to make money at an even softer site.Done.

Zach, just for you if I could get there and back without a migraine, I'd post the official statement. But I'm sure it's jumbled up about 10 pages back now. Would you please........pretty please with sugar on top........read the official statement and then come back? Please?

[qyayqi 11]

If we notice a pattern of unusual activity then we will take action. It isagainst our policy to reveal any actions taken against another account. Therefore, the actions taken against those suspected of cheating cannot bediscussed with anyone but the account holder. We want to thank you again forbringing this possible collusion activity to our attention. the problem becomes: what are they doing with the funds they seize? i semi-regularly see people post about receiving unexpected money from pstars/ftp with an explanation that an un-named person was found to be cheating & had their funds seized and credited back to those affected. even with all this noise around ap i haven't seen someone step up to say, "wait, they refunded my $xxx after i made a report. they handle these things in due course."so... what happens to seized funds? if the site gets to keep it all, then they really have no reason to show due dilligence-- they let someone get away with cheating until users catch them, then they get all the money. win/win for the site, but it takes bites & chunks out of the poker economy.

[wsox8 10]

I totally get your points, RDog..and if I were someone playing 30/60 LHE or 10/20 NLHE and the big buyins, I would pull my roll off AP. But if I'm playing 3/6 and 20 dollar tournements, I'm not worrying about it. Flat out, plain and simple. I don't know why that attitude is so shocking to you.

QFT

[DrawingDeadInDM 0]

so... what happens to seized funds?

What makes you think any funds were seized or that there were funds to seize? If I was doing this for 30k a day profit, I'd be pulling about 200k a week off AP, I guarantee you that.

[fighter 4]

However, I don't know if anyone has gotten money transfered back to them, or if AP is in the process of calculating it, or whatever. I trust they'd do the right thing, but I wouldn't be 100% confident in that, by any means.

Like sweep it under the rug. If they are going to take the "I see nothing" route then no one will get there money because that would indirectly admit that this happend. Thing that annonys me most about this issue is it really shows what the common poker player is like. "I got srewed out of money by blatent cheating, Can you help me protest?""No, with you gone it is +ev for me""This could of happend to you though" "It didnt though"

[RDog 0]

Wow, the hand histories from the 1k Potripper won that are posted on P5's are so gross. I love that AP says there is no evidence the user could see the cards. LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL. They run a poker site, yet we are supposed to accept that they know nothing about poker? Anyone who has half a ****ing clue can look at those hands and realize the guy knows every ****ing hand at the table. **** AP, slimy ****ing bastards.Great customer service to be cheating your customers (high end ones at that) out of their money right Zach? But hey, there are good bonuses and a VIP number. Marco should seriously demand first place money in that tourney.

[20TN40 0]

Just cause my headache finally let up..........here it is.AP's Offical Response to AllegationsOfficial Absolute Poker Response To Player Fraud AllegationsAbsolute Poker takes all allegations of player fraud and collusion extremely seriously. Fair play and security are of paramount importance to us. Our Security and Fraud Department is dedicated to ensuring that everyone on the site has a fair opportunity to win, and that no improper methods, devices, programs and/or other unfair advantages are ever utilized in our games. We were greatly concerned by a recent thread on the 2+2 forums along with emails and other communications we received, regarding alleged player fraud. We thank the vigilant players who reported this matter to us, giving us an opportunity to investigate these serious allegations. We spent extensive resources thoroughly investigating and analyzing our players’ claims. While our investigation is ongoing, we feel that we have enough information at this point to share with you some of our findings.Please be advised, that we will continue to investigate each and every claim of wrong-doing on an individual basis and we will report any further significant findings that are appropriate for public review. Also, please keep in mind, while we endeavor to provide as much information as possible on a public level, we take our players’ privacy issues very seriously, and will never compromise this. As a matter of Company policy, Absolute Poker never divulges personal information about our players nor do we make public any hand information that did not go to a showdown, ever. As a result, we are limited in terms of the level of information that we can provide for public review.In response to the allegations, we froze the accounts of the players in question while we performed an extensive investigation. The result of our investigation is that we found no evidence that any of Absolute Poker’s redundant and varying levels of game client security were compromised. In other words, we have determined with reasonable certainty that it is impossible for any player or employee to see hole cards as was alleged. There is no part of the technology that allows for a “superuser” account, and there is no way for any person to influence the game software to their advantage. We base this finding on a thorough security check on a technological level, coupled with a thorough investigation of hand histories including those that did not go to a showdown. As a part of our investigation, we also tested the integrity of our certified random number generator (“RNG”.) We determined that our RNG was not compromised either.Details of the investigationWe combed through all hands involving the accounts that were mentioned in the online forums. Please note that only a select number of hands were featured in the threads. Our ongoing investigation continues to show that there were countless instances where a somewhat unorthodox poker strategy resulted in a loss. Allegations that the player accounts at issue “always guessed right” are unfounded. We examined screen shots from Poker Tracker Software that displayed an “infinite” river aggression factor for one of the player accounts at issue. We examined similar screen shots which showed a lower but still relatively high river aggression factor. We were very concerned by this anomaly. Accordingly, we reviewed each and every hand that this player played during the relevant time period and determined that while the play was extremely aggressive, particularly on the river, there were several instances where the player merely called on the river. Thus, the allegation that the player accounts at issue “never called on the river, they either raised or folded” are also without merit. With respect to the allegation of chip dumping, we have determined that chip dumping by at least one of the accounts at issue, did in fact, take place. We have determined that the chip dumping was made to several seemingly unrelated accounts. We are continuing to investigate this issue. ConclusionA ‘super-user’ account does not exist in our software. Absolute Poker was created by poker players who value security and fair play. The back-end of the Absolute Poker software prevents the possibility of any such feature. Our game client only receives data regarding an individual’s hand and no other player hole cards are ever visible – by anyone – except in the event of a showdown. Having said that, we will continue this investigation as well as look into any other allegations of wrong-doing. If appropriate, we will freeze funds and reimburse effected players. Absolute Poker remains a 100% secure place to play. We value all of our players and we will continue to provide our community with a safe, secure and exciting online poker experience. The Absolute Poker Management

[mase_gotsem 0]

AHAHAHA how bout this gem of a statment "Absolute Poker never divulges personal information about our players nor do we make public any hand information that did not go to a showdown, ever."yet they send a FULL hand history of hands that never made it to show down to this marco guy ???? wtfaments ?

[RDog 0]

Another gem I got from 2+2 from someone who saw the complete hand histories. LOL@security.oh btw: private emails are in the HH

[20TN40 0]

Just part of the HH they sent to Marco and WacoStage #896587223 Tourney ID 1883389 Holdem Multi Normal Tournament No Limit $20 - 2007-09-12 21:18:03.011 (ET)Table: 13 (Real Money) Seat #5 is the dealerSeat 7 - DZ00NUTS ($8272 in chips)Seat 8 - KOOLKEITH13 ($9960 in chips)Seat 9 - SCARFACE_79 ($10360 in chips)Seat 1 - BIGREDAK86 ($9760 in chips)Seat 3 - POTRIPPER ($23957 in chips)Seat 2 - JOSIAHW ($7466 in chips)Seat 4 - POTR0AST ($9865 in chips)Seat 5 - POKERME420 ($10290 in chips)DZ00NUTS - Posts small blind $10KOOLKEITH13 - Posts big blind $20*** POCKET CARDS ***Dealt to SCARFACE_79 [5d 10h] Dealt to BIGREDAK86 [Jh Qs] Dealt to JOSIAHW [Jd Kd] Dealt to POTR0AST [Ks 10d] Dealt to POTRIPPER [3d 7c] Dealt to POKERME420 [10c Jc] Dealt to KOOLKEITH13 [4h 8h] Dealt to DZ00NUTS [4d 8c] SCARFACE_79 - FoldsBIGREDAK86 - Raises $69 to $69JOSIAHW - Calls $69POTRIPPER - Calls $69POTR0AST - FoldsPOKERME420 - FoldsDZ00NUTS - FoldsKOOLKEITH13 - Folds*** FLOP *** [7h 10s 7s]BIGREDAK86 - Bets $180JOSIAHW - FoldsPOTRIPPER - Calls $180*** TURN *** [7h 10s 7s] [6d]BIGREDAK86 - ChecksPOTRIPPER - Checks*** RIVER *** [7h 10s 7s 6d] [Ad]BIGREDAK86 - Bets $420POTRIPPER - Raises $840 to $840BIGREDAK86 - FoldsPOTRIPPER Collects $1437 from main potStage #896592641 Tourney ID 1883389 Holdem Multi Normal Tournament No Limit $20 - 2007-09-12 21:19:36.012 (ET)Table: 13 (Real Money) Seat #7 is the dealerSeat 8 - KOOLKEITH13 ($9940 in chips)Seat 9 - SCARFACE_79 ($10360 in chips)Seat 1 - BIGREDAK86 ($9091 in chips)Seat 2 - JOSIAHW ($7397 in chips)Seat 4 - POTR0AST ($9865 in chips)Seat 3 - POTRIPPER ($24725 in chips)Seat 5 - POKERME420 ($10290 in chips)Seat 7 - DZ00NUTS ($8262 in chips)KOOLKEITH13 - Posts small blind $10SCARFACE_79 - Posts big blind $20*** POCKET CARDS ***Dealt to BIGREDAK86 [6d 9s] Dealt to JOSIAHW [3d Kc] Dealt to POTRIPPER [8d 4d] Dealt to POTR0AST [Ks 7c] Dealt to POKERME420 [Qs Qh] Dealt to DZ00NUTS [8h 7h] Dealt to KOOLKEITH13 [Kh As] Dealt to SCARFACE_79 [Jh Jc] BIGREDAK86 - FoldsJOSIAHW - FoldsPOTRIPPER - Raises $60 to $60POTR0AST - FoldsPOKERME420 - Calls $60DZ00NUTS - Calls $60KOOLKEITH13 - Raises $300 to $310SCARFACE_79 - Calls $290POTRIPPER - FoldsPOKERME420 - Calls $250DZ00NUTS - Calls $250*** FLOP *** [4c 3s 2c]KOOLKEITH13 - Bets $750SCARFACE_79 - FoldsPOKERME420 - Calls $750DZ00NUTS - Folds*** TURN *** [4c 3s 2c] [10c]KOOLKEITH13 - ChecksPOKERME420 - Bets $320KOOLKEITH13 - Calls $320*** RIVER *** [4c 3s 2c 10c] [7s]KOOLKEITH13 - ChecksPOKERME420 - ChecksPOKERME420 Collects $3440 from main potStage #896599326 Tourney ID 1883389 Holdem Multi Normal Tournament No Limit $30 - 2007-09-12 21:21:39.012 (ET)Table: 13 (Real Money) Seat #8 is the dealerSeat 9 - SCARFACE_79 ($10050 in chips)Seat 1 - BIGREDAK86 ($9091 in chips)Seat 2 - JOSIAHW ($7397 in chips)Seat 3 - POTRIPPER ($24665 in chips)Seat 4 - POTR0AST ($9865 in chips)Seat 5 - POKERME420 ($12350 in chips)Seat 7 - DZ00NUTS ($7952 in chips)Seat 8 - KOOLKEITH13 ($8560 in chips)SCARFACE_79 - Posts small blind $15BIGREDAK86 - Posts big blind $30*** POCKET CARDS ***Dealt to JOSIAHW [Kd Qh] Dealt to POTRIPPER [Kh 2s] Dealt to POTR0AST [Qs 7c] Dealt to POKERME420 [10s 6h] Dealt to DZ00NUTS [Ac 9d] Dealt to KOOLKEITH13 [Jc 4s] Dealt to SCARFACE_79 [5h 5d] JOSIAHW - Raises $120 to $120KOOLKEITH13 - FoldsPOTRIPPER - Calls $120POKERME420 - FoldsPOTR0AST - FoldsDZ00NUTS - FoldsSCARFACE_79 - Calls $105BIGREDAK86 - Folds*** FLOP *** [7d 8s 5c]SCARFACE_79 - Bets $240JOSIAHW - FoldsPOTRIPPER - FoldsSCARFACE_79 - returned ($240) : not called

[Marchione 0]

does this mean online poker is rigged ?

[FCP Bob 1,312]

1. Yes.2. It's called sweeping it under the rug, and handling things behind closed doors. Stuff will come out if it happens, but AP not making a public admission of the cheating is completely irrelevant to whether or not they will reimburse people who were scammed.3. Dude. I can't imagine how you'd expect AP to pick up on this on their own. The only way people like this are ever caught is because of people who suspect something either contact the site to prompt an investigation, or investigate it themselves. Major sites can't possibly examine every single HH to see if there's a pattern of collusion or scamming without at least something to prompt the investigation.

You're actually way off base on 3 above Zach.One of the basic tools that sites use is when an account wins an unusually large amount of money for the limit that is being played an automated alert is generated so that the account can be investigated. The major reason why this is used is because it helps sites to find the fraudsters who make bad deposits that cost the sites money when they dump off their chips to another account.It was a different scale but I remember having a conversation on the phone with Roy Cooke back in 2000. He was the cardroom manager at Planet Poker at that time. Since I was one of the largest winners at the site he told me in passing that they had looked at my account and play a few times to make sure that no collusion was going on. It was something that they did with all the larger winners. This was of course in the days where online sites were more like a Mom and Pop and not the huge things they are now.

[booyaga 0]

You're actually way off base on 3 above Zach.One of the basic tools that sites use is when an account wins an unusually large amount of money for the limit that is being played an automated alert is generated so that the account can be investigated. The major reason why this is used is because it helps sites to find the fraudsters who make bad deposits that cost the sites money when they dump off their chips to another account.It was a different scale but I remember having a conversation on the phone with Roy Cooke back in 2000. He was the cardroom manager at Planet Poker at that time. Since I was one of the largest winners at the site he told me in passing that they had looked at my account and play a few times to make sure that no collusion was going on. It was something that they did with all the larger winners. This was of course in the days where online sites were more like a Mom and Pop and not the huge things they are now.

PENALTY!!!!brag posting10 yards2nd down

[PrtyPSux 0]

This is so sick...I had talked to Marco and Waco about it before but I never thought it was as crazy as the HH is. The dude that won this tourney has to be a total moron to make obv "I can see your cards" plays when he could just win every tourney without having to call with 10 high. The sicker thing is that this dude could have probably won millions on the site without anyone ever knowing and people would be thinking he's just a sicko player. Makes you wonder if there are other dudes out there that are actually smart about it but are stealing all of our money. Now high stakes cash game players have this in the back of their mind, on any site. AP is obv going straight to the shitter, no matter how hard they try to correct this. GG.

[chgocubs99 0]

I am old school...I used to play at Planet Poker around that same time.I didn't win.

[Painter567 0]

(500bbs deep and 88 stackin off no prob to his 1010)Stage #896578317 Tourney ID 1883389 Holdem Multi Normal Tournament No Limit $20 - 2007-09-12 21:15:24.010 (ET)Table: 13 (Real Money) Seat #3 is the dealerSeat 4 - POTR0AST ($9875 in chips)Seat 5 - POKERME420 ($10320 in chips)Seat 6 - SCOTT_NZL ($9795 in chips)Seat 7 - DZ00NUTS ($8452 in chips)Seat 8 - KOOLKEITH13 ($9960 in chips)Seat 9 - SCARFACE_79 ($9970 in chips)Seat 1 - BIGREDAK86 ($9940 in chips)Seat 2 - JOSIAHW ($7466 in chips)Seat 3 - POTRIPPER ($14152 in chips)POTR0AST - Posts small blind $10POKERME420 - Posts big blind $20*** POCKET CARDS ***Dealt to KOOLKEITH13 [10d 3s] Dealt to SCARFACE_79 [5s Js] Dealt to BIGREDAK86 [Ad 3c] Dealt to JOSIAHW [7h 4d] Dealt to POTRIPPER [10h 10c] Dealt to POTR0AST [5d 3h] Dealt to POKERME420 [8d Qh] Dealt to SCOTT_NZL [8c 8h] Dealt to DZ00NUTS [9h Ah] SCOTT_NZL - Calls $20DZ00NUTS - Raises $60 to $60KOOLKEITH13 - FoldsSCARFACE_79 - FoldsBIGREDAK86 - FoldsJOSIAHW - FoldsPOTRIPPER - Raises $160 to $160POKERME420 - FoldsPOTR0AST - FoldsSCOTT_NZL - Calls $140DZ00NUTS - Calls $100*** FLOP *** [7d 2d 4c]SCOTT_NZL - ChecksDZ00NUTS - ChecksPOTRIPPER - Bets $300SCOTT_NZL - Raises $900 to $900DZ00NUTS - FoldsPOTRIPPER - Raises $2000 to $2300SCOTT_NZL - Raises $4640 to $5540POTRIPPER - All-In(Raise) $11692 to $13992SCOTT_NZL - All-In $4095POTRIPPER - returned ($4357) : not called*** TURN *** [7d 2d 4c] [7c]*** RIVER *** [7d 2d 4c 7c] [9d]*** SHOW DOWN ***POTRIPPER - Shows [10h 10c] (Two Pair, tens and sevens) SCOTT_NZL - Shows [8c 8h] (Two Pair, eights and sevens) POTRIPPER Collects $19780 from main pot

[Painter567 0]

*(Prob the Sickest hand in the hh)Stage #896642899 Tourney ID 1883389 Holdem Multi Normal Tournament No Limit $50 - 2007-09-12 21:41:57.004 (ET)Table: 13 (Real Money) Seat #2 is the dealerSeat 3 - POTRIPPER ($27047 in chips)Seat 4 - POTR0AST ($8423 in chips)Seat 5 - POKERME420 ($12715 in chips)Seat 7 - DZ00NUTS ($7749.50 in chips)Seat 8 - KOOLKEITH13 ($8445 in chips)Seat 9 - SCARFACE_79 ($10002.50 in chips)Seat 1 - BIGREDAK86 ($8491 in chips)Seat 2 - JOSIAHW ($7057 in chips)POTRIPPER - Posts small blind $25POTR0AST - Posts big blind $50*** POCKET CARDS ***Dealt to KOOLKEITH13 [Jh Kh] Dealt to SCARFACE_79 [6c 10s] Dealt to BIGREDAK86 [3h 4h] Dealt to JOSIAHW [9h 6h] Dealt to POTRIPPER [Qc 10c] Dealt to POTR0AST [9c 4c] Dealt to POKERME420 [Qh Jd] Dealt to DZ00NUTS [4d 3d] POKERME420 - Raises $200 to $200DZ00NUTS - FoldsKOOLKEITH13 - Calls $200SCARFACE_79 - FoldsBIGREDAK86 - FoldsJOSIAHW - FoldsPOTRIPPER - Calls $175POTR0AST - Folds*** FLOP *** [8d 6d 3s]POTRIPPER - ChecksPOKERME420 - Bets $250KOOLKEITH13 - Raises $850 to $850POTRIPPER - Raises $5700 to $5700POKERME420 - FoldsKOOLKEITH13 - FoldsPOTRIPPER - returned ($4850) : not called

[Painter567 0]

Stage #896976330 Tourney ID 1883389 Holdem Multi Normal Tournament No Limit $4500 - 2007-09-13 01:43:48 (ET)Table: 14 (Real Money) Seat #3 is the dealerSeat 3 - POTRIPPER ($765740 in chips)Seat 8 - CRAZYMARCO ($214260 in chips)POTRIPPER - Ante $450CRAZYMARCO - Ante $450POTRIPPER - Posts small blind $2250CRAZYMARCO - Posts big blind $4500*** POCKET CARDS ***Dealt to CRAZYMARCO [9h 2h] POTRIPPER - Calls $2250CRAZYMARCO - Checks*** FLOP *** [4h Kd Kh]CRAZYMARCO - ChecksPOTRIPPER - Bets $9000CRAZYMARCO - Calls $9000*** TURN *** [4h Kd Kh] [7s]CRAZYMARCO - ChecksPOTRIPPER - Bets $13500CRAZYMARCO - All-In(Raise) $200310 to $200310POTRIPPER - Calls $186810*** RIVER *** [4h Kd Kh 7s] [5s]*** SHOW DOWN ***POTRIPPER - Shows [10c 9c] (One pair, kings) CRAZYMARCO - Shows [9h 2h] (One pair, kings) POTRIPPER Collects $428520 from main pot

[James D 0]

This is so sick...I had talked to Marco and Waco about it before but I never thought it was as crazy as the HH is. The dude that won this tourney has to be a total moron to make obv "I can see your cards" plays when he could just win every tourney without having to call with 10 high. The sicker thing is that this dude could have probably won millions on the site without anyone ever knowing and people would be thinking he's just a sicko player. Makes you wonder if there are other dudes out there that are actually smart about it but are stealing all of our money. Now high stakes cash game players have this in the back of their mind, on any site. AP is obv going straight to the shitter, no matter how hard they try to correct this. GG.

This is quite a concern, yeah. I think that it has, and may continue to, happen at other levels too. (If cheating has happened, which looks almost certain).Basically, at the higher levels, with more intelligent players and a much smaller player pool... the alarm bells will be raised quicker and also listened to much more on 2+2, P5's because they are respected/established 'name' players. The chances of getting away with it at a lower level are much greater. There, they may be able to stay under the radar until they make the classic mistake of getting too greedy.The guy in question here played 4 tourneys on AP. This is from P5's:The buy-ins were:$50$5$1000$20So.. were they testing if they could cheat at the lower buy-ins? Would anyone notice or even bother to report it and make it public at a $5 buy-in? For the people completely disregarding this on the basis that 'well, I don't play at those levels so it doesn't affect me', I'd urge a little caution actually, on AP. It is very very possible that you have already been compromised by such super-accounts, if they do in fact exist.