theresa113 0 Posted August 13, 2006 Share Posted August 13, 2006 I am so surprised that the forum members are not commending Harry for contacting and asking very pertinent questions to Jeffrey Pollack, Robert Daley and the WSOP organizers. Harry has a history of vocalizing what needs to be done in an event this large that has many leaks and holes that should be filled. Harry is putting his reputation on the line as well as taking his valuable time to make sure things are done right. He is a strong voice with an intelligent point of view that clearly has a passion to ensure that the WSOP runs in a professional manner so we all can enjoy a well run event. 2.41 million difference in chip count is a huge issue. I play in a small live MTT at a person’s home every week and it was the difference in chip count when I and another player realized that money was being skimmed from the top of the prize pool. Racing off of chips should be well documented and that information should be collected. This information should also be published so someone like me isn’t thinking that money was skimmed. It is the right way to do business. As you all know, I am not a good poker player. I like to play the game because I am a social person and I enjoy the whole atmosphere and competitiveness of the game. However, I would like to play in an event next year. What Harry is doing is laying down the ground work for all of us who play in the future to have a well run, fair and enjoyable experience. I was in Vegas from the 19th-24th of July. I spent the greater part of three days railing the events. I was shocked how little floor personnel there was during the events, how long it took for the events to start and the long lines to get seat cards, etc. For the amount of support staff, it went OK. The staff seemed helpful for the most part and somewhat aware of what was going on at some of the tables. However, for the amount of tables that were in play, it was clear as an observer that there was a staffing issue. One thing I also observed on my last day there was a pro who noticed bent cards. He brought this up to the dealer. The floor staff came over with an opened pack of cards and exchanged out only one card. I would have thought you would exchange the whole deck since if one card is bent; there are probably others that are bent as well. This pro also noticed some smudging on another card and was quite perturbed with the handling of the cards. The floor man appeared to be annoyed that he had to come over and replace a card. I was watching this exchange with someone else from this forum and we were both shocked at the way it was handled. I know that even when you take out x% out of the pot for the casino, it pales in comparison to what the casino makes at their slot machines, roulette, etc. However, what the casino gets is lots of advertising. It is not fun to watch people play slots. However, many people I know who do not play poker will watch poker on TV. They will plan trips to Las Vegas because of the television exposure. The casino will reap the financial rewards even if it is not immediate. So, the casino chain should understand that there may be a financial lost on this event to properly staff but that it is an investment that will pay off once the shows air and they get more business in the casinos and the hotels. I am surprised that every chip is not counted. I would think that all of you would be surprised too. There was mention (I think it was by Daniel… but please correct me if I am wrong) that on one event the floor staff got more chips for someone and it was later discovered that the original chips were already at the table. That shows that not only is this event understaffed, but also the staff is not properly trained. If you watch those Vegas shows you see the money rooms and all of the security and how stringent the casino is on that revenue. However, it appears that there is total disregard to those practices on a tournament. That hurts us. Imagine if two friends were playing and one was short stacked. Without a proper count, chip dumping could occur during the bagging process. Remember, these events are held in the convention area, not in the casino. I am sure that the security on these events is not as stringent as the security that you would expect in a casino. This hurts the player, not Harrah’s, because Harrah’s has already collected their share of the money. I briefly met Harry Demetriou and I must say he is one eloquent, friendly, loyal and upstanding person. This is not some cantankerous man who just wants to complain. This is a man who wears his heart on his sleeve, who is loyal to his friends, who gives moral support and who has a passion for poker being played at the most professional level possible. When I met Harry he was all smiles (now maybe, he was just laughing at me since I was so giddy and acting like a school girl. I was very weak in the knees, if you know what I mean.) But besides all of that, I felt that he is a good natured light hearted man who looks out for all of us. I really hope that the forum members can see in Harry what I see and realize that he is fighting the good fight to make the WSOP a pleasant experience for everyone. I also think we should feel honored that he shares this information with us. This gives us who do not or have not played in these events a behind the scenes look. Not everything is as it appears on TV. The poker boom is a great thing. When it comes to a big event, such as the WSOP there needs a staff that are the highest caliber. Jamie Gold won 12 million dollars. With that kind of money, don’t you think that if there are issues during the events, they should be brought to someone’s attention and addressed? Anyway Harry, thanks for all that you do. I just want you to know that I, the complete poker novice, appreciate your efforts. Link to post Share on other sites
Jadaki 0 Posted August 13, 2006 Share Posted August 13, 2006 Anyway Harry, thanks for all that you do.2nd, nice post Theresa. Link to post Share on other sites
ripptyde 0 Posted August 13, 2006 Share Posted August 13, 2006 nice post Theresaand I agree 100%. We aren't talking about a handful of chips that slipped through the cracks here. We are talking about 2,410,000 chips. Personally I find it hard to swallow that these are 100% accounted for by 'color ups'. Harry is raising valid question(s) Link to post Share on other sites
digitalmonkey 929 Posted August 13, 2006 Share Posted August 13, 2006 What does it matter Harry?You werent at the final table and unless you staked someone there i dont see the point of debatign this issue.I believe it's called integrity of the game. No Harry was not at the final table. but this is not only a final table issue if it indeed turns out to be an issue.The question I have is why all theses shit flickers feel a need to post crap like "Who cares?" or "What does it matter to you?" Obviously some people care about integrity so why do you feel the need to question why it should matter to Harry? You probably don't even play poker so one could question why the fuck you are here? Link to post Share on other sites
chgocubs99 0 Posted August 13, 2006 Share Posted August 13, 2006 I don't think the reason people are complaining is because he posted a complaint to the WSOP *this* time. I think it's because 90% of his posts on this forum (with the notable exception of the question and answer session) are mostly complaints about the WSOP. With nothing else mixed in, it gives the impression that all he does is complain. Link to post Share on other sites
mcpickl 0 Posted August 13, 2006 Share Posted August 13, 2006 Seems to me, if an average of 2-3% "growth" is normal; the WSOP was right on track with 2.4 million extra. 2.4 mill = 2.7% of 87.73 millionjust because Jeffrey Pollack says 2-3% "growth" is normal, doesn't necessarily make it so. 2.4 million in extra chips seems absurd to me. Link to post Share on other sites
DanielSon 0 Posted August 13, 2006 Share Posted August 13, 2006 Did no one read my post? God damnit i spent a lot of time proving that Jeffrey Pollack can't be right on this...Wtf... Link to post Share on other sites
mrdannyg 274 Posted August 14, 2006 Share Posted August 14, 2006 Anyway Harry, thanks for all that you do. I just want you to know that I, the complete poker novice, appreciate your efforts.I'm glad someone took the time to write a post like that which probably represents how a lot of us feel.Did no one read my post? God damnit i spent a lot of time proving that Jeffrey Pollack can't be right on this...Wtf...I did read your post, but not sure if you understand the colouring up process. Basically how it works:Everyone starts with a bunch of chips - 25 is the start of the small blind, so its the lowest demonination. As blinds increase, the lower demoninations are no longer as useful. Once there is no blind/ante of less than 100, it is not necessary to have 25 chips, so they "race" them.I don't know exactly the mechanics of WSOP's chip "races," but my friends and I do it like a raffle. You basically take all your 25 chips, and count them up. for every 4, you'll get a 100 chip so that's easy. if you have an exact multiple of 4, its no problem. if you have, say 6 25 chips, then you are giving away 150, but they can't give you back 150 since the smallest demonination is 100. so you have some sort of raffle where you will get either 1 or 2 100 chips. if you had 50, you would have a 1/2 chance. if you had 75, you'd have a 3/4 chance.some people will actually gain or lose chips in the process, but it is such a small amount it doesn't really matter. most of the time it is done such that on average, no chips should be added to the total, or a negligible increase or decrease.probably the WSOP simply colours everyone up, so if you have 10025, you'd automatically get 10100 for instance.sorry it got so long, i'm not an expert so i may be wrong, but basically i was trying to point out that assuming 1 chip added to each table is not a reasonable assumption. Link to post Share on other sites
AcesUp46 0 Posted August 14, 2006 Share Posted August 14, 2006 Anyway Harry, thanks for all that you do. I just want you to know that I, the complete poker novice, appreciate your efforts.2nd Theresa's statement. If you find inconsistencies, keep plugging away at it Harry. Thanks. Link to post Share on other sites
DanielSon 0 Posted August 14, 2006 Share Posted August 14, 2006 I'm glad someone took the time to write a post like that which probably represents how a lot of us feel.I did read your post, but not sure if you understand the colouring up process. Basically how it works:Everyone starts with a bunch of chips - 25 is the start of the small blind, so its the lowest demonination. As blinds increase, the lower demoninations are no longer as useful. Once there is no blind/ante of less than 100, it is not necessary to have 25 chips, so they "race" them.I don't know exactly the mechanics of WSOP's chip "races," but my friends and I do it like a raffle. You basically take all your 25 chips, and count them up. for every 4, you'll get a 100 chip so that's easy. if you have an exact multiple of 4, its no problem. if you have, say 6 25 chips, then you are giving away 150, but they can't give you back 150 since the smallest demonination is 100. so you have some sort of raffle where you will get either 1 or 2 100 chips. if you had 50, you would have a 1/2 chance. if you had 75, you'd have a 3/4 chance.some people will actually gain or lose chips in the process, but it is such a small amount it doesn't really matter. most of the time it is done such that on average, no chips should be added to the total, or a negligible increase or decrease.probably the WSOP simply colours everyone up, so if you have 10025, you'd automatically get 10100 for instance.sorry it got so long, i'm not an expert so i may be wrong, but basically i was trying to point out that assuming 1 chip added to each table is not a reasonable assumption.I know how coloring up works...The calculations are as Jeffrey Pollack said. He stated that on average each table gets an extra chip coming into play when coloring up. Using that statement I calculated how many extra chips should have come into play and it is no where close to $2.41 million Link to post Share on other sites
mrdannyg 274 Posted August 14, 2006 Share Posted August 14, 2006 I know how coloring up works...The calculations are as Jeffrey Pollack said. He stated that on average each table gets an extra chip coming into play when coloring up. Using that statement I calculated how many extra chips should have come into play and it is no where close to $2.41 million During the color-up at least one additional chip of the higher demonination is usually placed into action on each and every table due to the race-off procedure.Your math is still valid though, since it seems not necessary for about 3 chips to have been added on average for every colour up.Not sure why I typed everything else explaining colouring up. I'm pretty hungover. Link to post Share on other sites
Mercury69 3 Posted August 14, 2006 Share Posted August 14, 2006 Excellent posts by HarryD and Theresa. I fully support HD's query and concern regarding the chip issue. I mean, what the hell, 2.1 mil in chips floating around unaccounted for? The small stack at the FT had only 2 mil or so, so it's a significant amount.The question is: Why isn't the chip count monitored more closely? It might seem like nitpicking to ask for an answer for something that cannot be changed, but it opens the door for more stringent policies regarding chip counting, including bagging, distribution, absent players and any other factor that contributes to this issue. While it may seem like a huge task, there is no question in my mind that miscounts and the like open the door to accusations of tampering and that would be a severe blow to WSOP and poker at large. If an organization is willing to accept the amount of money the WSOP takes in and mismanages that money, what then would you say? That's right. Where did the money go or where did that extra money come from? It's all about credibility, transparency and accountability and someone has to ask these questions. This time it was HarryD. Tomorrow it might be Doyle Brunson and then what will you naysayers blabber about? "Doyle's a whiny b_itch"? Yeah, right.In order for things to "get right", people have to ask awkward questions and those who are responsible for answering them should be honest about it. Does the process work? How can it be made better? Etc...That's my black chip of thoughts... Link to post Share on other sites
Uppie_ 0 Posted August 14, 2006 Share Posted August 14, 2006 ya or maybe just maybe he posts here to try to get a discussion going and keep people aware of his opinions. If he has complaints about the WSOP why shouldn't he post it in a poker fourm. I rememeber the days before FCP had poker and you could actually have a conversation and talk about a topic without it looking like a bon fire. Part of me regrets that dainel added poker to what used to be a great site to have things openly discussed. Link to post Share on other sites
speedz99 145 Posted August 14, 2006 Share Posted August 14, 2006 Bad Beat Forum Link to post Share on other sites
Kei 0 Posted August 14, 2006 Share Posted August 14, 2006 In the future, perhaps putting the oldest email first would be a better idea. I like reading top to bottom. Link to post Share on other sites
jowest 0 Posted August 14, 2006 Share Posted August 14, 2006 I agree with Theresa 100%. Thank you for being a voice of reason here. I find it hilarious that 99% of the people complaining to Harry are noobies or people who can't even take the time to create a profile. They just think it is fun to talk crap to a pro. You can find the same people on FTP railing a game and talking crap the entire time.GO AWAYHarry. I agree. It is important to be accountable. WSOP is no exception. If holes are not exposed than they will be exploited next year. Theresa brings up a great point about chip dumping. THIS HAPPENS. If you don't believe it than you are living in a dream world. Keep it up Harry. Link to post Share on other sites
tallytownFSU 0 Posted August 14, 2006 Share Posted August 14, 2006 Theresa, thats why we keep you around. Link to post Share on other sites
pokerbully 0 Posted August 14, 2006 Share Posted August 14, 2006 For all the idiots claiming this issue doesn't matter.......The extra chips are evidence of possible cheating.For instance, you could buy into a $1,000 event and receive $1,500 in chips. You pocket the $1,500 in chips (because obviously no one is really watching) and you find a way to reintroduce those chips into a more expensive event like the Main Event which costs $10,000. In other words you are buying discounted chips.You round up enough scum bag friends and suddenly you have enough chips to have an above average stack in the early going of the tournament.Granted you can lose the chips through a bad beat and such, but who said criminals are smart? Link to post Share on other sites
Pug_Fugly 0 Posted August 14, 2006 Share Posted August 14, 2006 In some casual tournaments I have played in the chips get "colored up" instead of raced off to avoid the administrative hassle. They just rounded everyone's smaller chip up to the next denomination. It seems uinlikely that they would do this in the WSOP main event but it would explain the inflation.Can anyone who was in the event confirm that they raced off the small chips as opposed to coloring everyone up? Link to post Share on other sites
blakheart 3 Posted September 12, 2006 Share Posted September 12, 2006 Harry-Did you ever get an answer? It seems that this issue is getting legs... Link to post Share on other sites
stan394 0 Posted September 12, 2006 Share Posted September 12, 2006 Harry-Did you ever get an answer? It seems that this issue is getting legs... http://www.pokernews.com/news/2006/9/two-m...estions-one.htm Link to post Share on other sites
blakheart 3 Posted September 12, 2006 Share Posted September 12, 2006 http://www.pokernews.com/news/2006/9/two-m...estions-one.htmYeah... that was I was referring to. Reread this thread. Harry was way out in front of this issue. He called out the WSOP right away. I was just wondering if they responded to his request. Link to post Share on other sites
DrawingDeadInDM 0 Posted September 12, 2006 Share Posted September 12, 2006 What does it matter Harry?You werent at the final table and unless you staked someone there i dont see the point of debatign this issue. It's that attitude that's going to allow the WSOP to continue to be poorly run. Link to post Share on other sites
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