anyone else not winning at poker?

[Jeff 0]

got a new avatar

[bcook823 0]

This is not meant as a slight to the OP, but an opinion I have formed over my own experiences.Over the long hual, your long term win rates (in term sof BB/hr/table) will not be that much different between live and online play. In fact your long tern win rate live will probably end up being lower than online due to a higher rake, tipping, fewer hands per hour, no table selection, and food and expenses.What your probably experiencing live is the rush. Online, where a typical palyer will mutli-table, you'll see A LOT more hands and will help even out your up and down swings. In live play (with the slower game and playing only 1 table) your have to put in so many hours of play to guage your win rate that it probably be year of playing before you actually know how you're doing.Of course this all assumes that you are playing at the correct limit for your skill level. If you beat the lowest limits live (3/6), you should be able to beat the lowest limit online (.25/.50). If you barely beat live 3/6, you will NOT be able to beat 3/6 online (this might be your problem as well).Hand reading skills are NOT going to take you from being a losing player online to a winner player live (unless you're basically flaoting around the break even mark). Hand reading just doesnt make THAT much of a difference especially when compared to all the negative things i mentioned above about live play.For the record, I'm not that great of a player. Like the majority of winning players, I'm not making anywhere near the amount needed to quit my day job. I played online all of last year and managed to make about $400 at the .25/.50 limit holdem games (I averaged about 0.75 BB/hr/table. I averaged But I usually played about 3 talbes at a time and played a lot of hours. I've been playing only live (3/6) games lately at the local casino over the last 3 months. My current win rate is around .5 BB/hr/table (tipping/other expenses is eating me alive).The things I notice live:1. The game is incredibly slow2. The table seems much more passive (less raising).3. My win rate is about what I would expect.4. Table selection online is the key to everything.

Well thought out informative post. I just disagree. I know many players who are winners live and not online, and vice versa. I am a winning player for over 3 years live, so thats certainly not a rush. You say it takes one year to gauge what one's win rate may be live. While that may be true, by your own reasoning, if you can play 4x the hands online, then you can measure your win rate in 3 months? 4x would be the minimum if one is playing 3 tables. Its more like 6-8 times. The things you notice live I agree with. The game is very slow compared with online play. The tabels (in general) are more passive (weak passive) even at the 3-6 level at most B&M's. Every player steams. I don't care who you are, what levels you play, how sucessful you are, everyone steams. I feel like many players that are loosers online is because they steam, which leads to bad play, and in many cases poor bankroll management. Many players who have a losing session online, will jump up a level to try and re-gain what they lost. I find this especially true for younger, more inexperienced players. The heads up games on most sites are full of people steaming from cash games. In live play this just isn't as easy, and for certain people are less likely to take a step up to a bigger game. Pit games (blackjack, craps, roulette) and other non poker gambling is more prevelant for B&M players and can result in the same pitfalls as mentioned above.

[Simpleton 0]

Apparantly Daniel Negreanu can't win.

[joball33 0]

got a new avatar

And it's fantastic. Well done.

[bcook823 0]

Apparantly Daniel Negreanu can't win.

I'd say his win rate online isn't the same as it is live, but I dunno reallyMike matusow is a HUGE loser online, and he can play a little.

[princeof56k 0]

4. Table selection online is the key to everything.Lets talk about that for a minute.What do you look for? I had a habit of taking the highest pot tables from the list, because it looked like that's where the highest profits would come. Lately, I find that I make more money going down the list to smaller pot averages where I generally find less agressive tables, and playing hard, really aggressive.

Well I'm on a MAC so I played on PokerRoom using their java app. I never usued poker tracking software of anykind. So you'll have to ask some of the guys in the strat section about those numbers. But here is what I found, you want tables where a lot of people are coming in pre-flop and there isnt a lot of raising (this is true for both online and live play). I would like over half the table to be coming in on average. I dont want them raising me because I want to be able to come in cheap in the back. If those 2 things are met, you will usually have a good size pot average. And their low aggression preflop will usually translate up to the bigger streets. Playing this type of table is very mechanical (no need to get fancy) and you can still make a ton of mistakes (like me) and make a profit.If it gets down to where about 1/3 of the table comes in every hand, its usally not a big deal. The players jump in and out of these games so often the table personality can change in a heart beat, but even the tightest .25/.50 table isnt that bad. Usually at the .25/.50 limit games almost all the tables are good. Just some are better than others.Tables with smal pot averages are usually not a good bet. Its called a rock garden. Are you absolutley sure that your winning more money in these games? Or are you just getting caught up in that you're winning more pots? I win far fewer pots in the games I play in, but I make more money as well.If you go to the strat section and post some of your numbers and ask questions, you will almost certainly see an improvement in your game. There's some good advice from posters in there. Just look at some of the posts in there before you start posting there and get accustomed to how things work in there.

[princeof56k 0]

Well thought out informative post. I just disagree. I know many players who are winners live and not online, and vice versa. I am a winning player for over 3 years live, so thats certainly not a rush. You say it takes one year to gauge what one's win rate may be live. While that may be true, by your own reasoning, if you can play 4x the hands online, then you can measure your win rate in 3 months? 4x would be the minimum if one is playing 3 tables. Its more like 6-8 times.

No problem disagreeing. The year factor I threw out there was just a guess (I dont feel like doing the math lol) and it really depends on how many hours you play. But in online play you need to rack up about 10000 hands at a minimum to really get a grip on how you are doing (100,000 is what I would recommend). Not sure how that translates into live play. All casual live players have played far fewer hands that online players. With the smaller sample size, they are probably not nearly as good (or bad) as they think.Not saying this is you, but what I find most from live players is that they are very poor record keepers. I have a spreadsheet (thanks excel) where I count not only my raw win/loss for the day, but I also have column for food and gas, and the clock starts running when I leave the house for the casino and doesnt stop until I get home. I pay for all drinks and tips with chips from the table so thats counted in the raw win/loss column. Once you start doing that you notice a big effect on your win rate. This is a big reason why some live players dont tip (cheap bastards). They've done the math. They know it has a big effect on their win rate.Now in contrast with online play, things are much different. They provide EXACT record keeping with that nice little dollar number in your profile. There is no way to fudge the numbers. So you know exactly, without a doubt, if you are winning or losing. All players, both online and live, have short term memories. They always remember their most recent sessions the best. The difference with the online players is that they see that dollar number every time they log in. It can be a real wake up call for people who have only played live.

[BNH77 0]

Im a marginal winning player based on results but when Bonuses are factored into the mix, Ive made quite a bit of money playing poker over the past two years. I am running cold right now, just this weekend I lost $100 w/ AA vs JJ all in preflop/ and lost a $300+ pot w/ a set of 4's all in vs vs two callers on a board of KQ4, one of them spiked an ace on the riv w/ JT and the $300 pot was shipped over to him. Bonuses are keeping me close to even this month despite the run of bad cards, and sooner or later my hands will start to hold up to swing the momentum.Good luck.

[finztotheleft 0]

Good topic and replies....glad to see the flaming kept to a minimum. Last year I sqeuked out a modest profit online. If you include that this includes bonuses and A LOT of time playing .25/.5 and .5/1 limit, it probably works out to .ooo12/bb. Sad, but true. At least I can say I was up some.Starting out with a very rough start for 2006.....waiting for the upswing in variance....... :wink:

[scottyno 0]

im on a sick rush right now.i made about 3k in 7 months of serious play last yearso far im up $1200 this year already from playing well at 1-2 and final tableing 2 mtts already

[Dave23 0]

I was a break even player due to lack of discipline. My advice would be to keep accurate records every time u play, and also only play when u really want to. This is a lot harder than it sounds, i solved this problem by only allowing myself to play for 3 hours in any one session before taking a long break. Hope this helps.

[theredpill99 0]

Dont lie redpill. we all know you suck at pokerI mean calling a big pf reraise w K10s?. How can you honestly say you are not a donkey?And what bills? You live with your friggin mother

When did I call a pf raise with KTs ? I fold that to raises preflop (normally). Oh wait, I do remember... ok now I remember. Yeah that wasn't one of my best hands but you can only fold for so long.

[bdams19 0]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^That guy.

[aucu 3]

im on a sick rush right now.i made about 3k in 7 months of serious play last yearso far im up $1200 this year already from playing well at 1-2 and final tableing 2 mtts already

You need to re-consider what you consider serious. :roll:

[BoozeHound 0]

Your kidding right. If you realy believe that there are more badbeats on party then any other site, because online poker is ofcourse rigged no wonder why your a losing player. That wasnt even what i was getting at jacka.ss. Never used the word rigged once. Used the VARIANCE, big difference a-hole

[Corrado 0]

PokerStars Game #3619035241: Hold'em No Limit ($0.25/$0.50) - 2006/01/12 - 23:29:23 (ET)Table 'Medusa III' Seat #3 is the buttonSeat 1: ldudeus2 ($28.10 in chips) Seat 2: lechatboté ($12.50 in chips) Seat 3: wayne lab 99 ($104.40 in chips) Seat 4: hotnuts ($50.50 in chips) Seat 5: BLUEYEDWOP ($50.40 in chips) Seat 6: bheinima ($54.70 in chips) hotnuts: posts small blind $0.25BLUEYEDWOP: posts big blind $0.50*** HOLE CARDS ***Dealt to BLUEYEDWOP [Qh Jh]bheinima: calls $0.50ldudeus2: folds lechatboté: calls $0.50wayne lab 99: calls $0.50hotnuts: folds BLUEYEDWOP: raises $0.50 to $1bheinima: raises $7 to $8lechatboté: folds wayne lab 99: folds BLUEYEDWOP: calls $7*** FLOP *** [9h Kc 8d]BLUEYEDWOP: bets $0.50bheinima: raises $7.50 to $8BLUEYEDWOP: calls $7.50*** TURN *** [9h Kc 8d] [5h]BLUEYEDWOP: bets $0.50bheinima: raises $19.50 to $20BLUEYEDWOP: raises $14.40 to $34.40 and is all-inbheinima: calls $14.40*** RIVER *** [9h Kc 8d 5h] [Td]lechatboté said, "wow"*** SHOW DOWN ***BLUEYEDWOP: shows [Qh Jh] (a straight, Nine to King)bheinima: mucks hand BLUEYEDWOP collected $99.05 from pothahaha .. :shock: PokerStars Game #3619112521: Hold'em No Limit ($0.25/$0.50) - 2006/01/12 - 23:35:57 (ET)Table 'Medusa III' Seat #3 is the buttonSeat 1: ldudeus2 ($51.75 in chips) Seat 2: lechatboté ($9.95 in chips) Seat 3: wayne lab 99 ($67.40 in chips) Seat 4: hotnuts ($49.10 in chips) Seat 5: BLUEYEDWOP ($109.50 in chips) Seat 6: bheinima ($3.30 in chips) hotnuts: posts small blind $0.25BLUEYEDWOP: posts big blind $0.50*** HOLE CARDS ***Dealt to BLUEYEDWOP [Ac Ad]bheinima: calls $0.50ldudeus2: calls $0.50lechatboté: calls $0.50wayne lab 99: calls $0.50hotnuts: raises $4.50 to $5BLUEYEDWOP: raises $4.50 to $9.50bheinima: folds ldudeus2: folds lechatboté: folds wayne lab 99: folds hotnuts: calls $4.50*** FLOP *** [9c 3c 7s]hotnuts: checks BLUEYEDWOP: bets $26.50hotnuts: raises $13.10 to $39.60 and is all-inBLUEYEDWOP: calls $13.10*** TURN *** [9c 3c 7s] [6c]*** RIVER *** [9c 3c 7s 6c] [3h]*** SHOW DOWN ***hotnuts: shows [5d 5s] (two pair, Fives and Threes)BLUEYEDWOP: shows [Ac Ad] (two pair, Aces and Threes)BLUEYEDWOP collected $97.20 from pothahahah :wink:

[princeof56k 0]

Yeah that wasn't one of my best hands but you can only fold for so long.

You should make that your signature.

[BIG_L_RIP 0]

if online poker isn't rigged, it's about as close as one can come in the definition. It is staggering. I've finally sworn it off. Sure we can talk variance, how we 'want' donks drawing to 3 outs, etc. But with the last month costing me 5 digits, it's all I can do to keep from tracing IPs and beating people senseless in person.

[princeof56k 0]

if online poker isn't rigged, it's about as close as one can come in the definition. It is staggering. I've finally sworn it off. Sure we can talk variance, how we 'want' donks drawing to 3 outs, etc. But with the last month costing me 5 digits, it's all I can do to keep from tracing IPs and beating people senseless in person.

Are you serious? If yes, then thanks in advance for the eventual locking of this thread. Let the flaming begin.

[stealfromblind 0]

Over the last 3 years, I have not been a winning player. I play mostly small stakes limit. I cannot win online. I recently moved to a city that has casinos, so I can play whenever I want. Since Sept. I have been playing 3/6 limit at this casino and have been winning. I am serious about bankroll management. I keep records of every session. I find that when I can play at a B&M whenever I want, I play more relaxed. I do not play limit online any more. I sometimes will play a LN tourney online.

wow. the ass in your avatar might be the most amazing ass i've ever seen. i think i stared at it for damn close to 6 seconds. that has got to be photoshoped. where's the cellulite?

[BIG_L_RIP 0]

entirely serious? no. enormously bitter and staggered by some of the play, yes. I tried to drop down in limits in an attempt to resuscitate the bankroll and yikes.

[pbwl11 0]

Since I can only play at the B&M on Saturdays, I guess the variance factor takes a lot longer to even things out for me. I started the year with $1200, playing 2/4 lhe (as per the 300bb rule everyone emphasizes on the forum. I won $75 the first Sat. lost $65 last Sat, and then today could not hit a flop to save my life, got sucked out on the majority of hands I did play, and took a nice little $150 b.i.tch slapping.I know that overall I'm a winning player from last year (started last Jan with $500, rolled it to the forementioned $1200) but geez, days like today are enough to p iss of the Pope. lolOh well, there's till 49 more weeks to go.... :roll:

[Mandelbrot 0]

I disclaim any responsibility for the following advice: My recommendation to people who tell me they don't win online is to play higher stakes (within reason). This may sound counter-intuitive but usually it works (lots of reasons for this when you think about it). Course, this doesn't apply to people losing at already medium stakes -- e.g. the 10/20 tables. But if you're grinding it out at the .05/.10 tables, then I would highly encourage you to try your hand at 1/2.

[davezz5 0]

I make money just not enough to increase a bankroll. All the money I make goes to bills so my bankroll never gets larger.

That was very similar to my situation 12 months ago during a period of fiscal hardship.I found that poker winnings were paying bills.Maybe a job will enable you to build a Br. :idea:

[princeof56k 0]

I disclaim any responsibility for the following advice: My recommendation to people who tell me they don't win online is to play higher stakes (within reason). This may sound counter-intuitive but usually it works (lots of reasons for this when you think about it). Course, this doesn't apply to people losing at already medium stakes -- e.g. the 10/20 tables. But if you're grinding it out at the .05/.10 tables, then I would highly encourage you to try your hand at 1/2.

I understand what you're trying to say, but I find it hard to believe that someone can beat 1/2 but cant beat .05/.10. To be sucessful at higher limits is usally due to a higher understanding of the game. If they dont have the knowledge to beat lowest game out there, then they probably dont know how to beat a higher level game.Its like telling someone who has trouble with long division to try Calculus.EDIT: now if you're telling these guys to move up to the limit you play at, now I REALLY understand what you're trying to say :-)