greenstein talks about winners in the big game.

[PMJackson21 0]

My take when I originally read this was that it was more directed at people like Hellmuth who are not noted for their cash game winnings.  I think it's more directed at just the "tournament" pros.  (I'm not sure where you would put Juanda in this conversation because I have never heard about his cash games wins/losses).  I think that Barry was spouting off at the mouth because he is sick of the tournament pros being thought of as the best.I somewhat agree with him that the public sees people as Hellmuth and tournament pros in such a high light.  The people in the big game are outstanding players and should be recognized as the best players in the world.  But for him to say that there are only 5 players that are tops in the game is just far too elitist.  Get off your high horse Greenstein, hope you change your mind about DN after your matches.

I posted this last week in another Barry thread, but it's pretty much Barry saying the same stuff (not as elaborate though) on RGP a few months back. His original response to one of Russ's rants mentions he doesn't think highly of tourney players, and his reponse to my question regarding that is interesting. And yes, his ego is apparent then too. :-)http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.ga...44b50172f79930f

[Guest]

Poker is so much different than any other "sport" (I will use the assumption poker is a sport for this comparison.) As so many have pointed out, you need the "biggest" bankroll to play in the biggest game. If baseball/football (fill in the sport) players could only play in the major leagues if they had $5 million in the bank, the level of talent would stink. But, at least in theory, the best players in each sport reach the top through the weeding out process, and most times money in the bank has nothing to do with it (see Jason Giambi).Barry should at least humble himself a little bit and recognize that just because people cannot play in his game for bankroll reasons does not mean they are not great players. Yes, many players have the opportunity to earn their money playing poker over many years and build both their skills and bankrolls up to the level needed to play in high stake games. Others earn it in other fields and then have the opportunity to prove their worth with their inflated non poker bankroll. No doubt Barry was a very good player before he made millions in the software business, but also no doubt those millions gave him the opportunity to play with only the best. He needs to relax and not be so bothered by what other people think of himself and others. One would think he would have built up enough self confidence by now that his self worth was not tied up in being ranked in the top five poker players in the world and putting every other tournament pro down as being broke!

[Swift_Psycho 1]

After all this, all I can really think about is Phil Ivey's reaction to Barry when he complained about public recognition or whatever (in that one thread someone posted) when Phil said "Why do you care?"It's stunning to think how young Phil Ivey is and yet also seemingly so much more mature.

[TFABOM 0]

"It's stunning to think how young Phil Ivey is and yet also seemingly so much more mature.

This is because Phil is a bot. Well, an AI cyborg with no concept of ego other than by definition.

[Meatwad 0]

My take when I originally read this was that it was more directed at people like Hellmuth who are not noted for their cash game winnings.  I think it's more directed at just the "tournament" pros.  (I'm not sure where you would put Juanda in this conversation because I have never heard about his cash games wins/losses).  I think that Barry was spouting off at the mouth because he is sick of the tournament pros being thought of as the best.I somewhat agree with him that the public sees people as Hellmuth and tournament pros in such a high light.  The people in the big game are outstanding players and should be recognized as the best players in the world.  But for him to say that there are only 5 players that are tops in the game is just far too elitist.  Get off your high horse Greenstein, hope you change your mind about DN after your matches.

I posted this last week in another Barry thread, but it's pretty much Barry saying the same stuff (not as elaborate though) on RGP a few months back. His original response to one of Russ's rants mentions he doesn't think highly of tourney players, and his reponse to my question regarding that is interesting. And yes, his ego is apparent then too. :-)http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.ga...44b50172f79930f

i like how he ends the post:"Still, the last few years I have been the biggest winner at the WSOP -- counting the side games of course. "I'll give him credit for being a top player but I think he has an inferiority complex. He just seems to care too much about things that other pros, like Ivey, just seem to shrug off. Incidentally, the article says he began playing tourneys the last 18 months but he's been playing WSOP since 92. Guess they omitted the more to make it sound more impressive. He has done very well though he probably just started to get that recognition the great tournament players do.

[711Buddha 0]

Greenstein reminds me of a NFL wide reciever talking about how he kills the practice squad, but can't seem to be a top player week after week. When you talk about TV poker, you're talking about tourney's. Last I saw ESPN didn't want to cover his regular game. The travel channel didn't have a primetime show for "The big Ring Game." NBC wasn't starting a show "Ring Game Championship."Now I'm not suggesting that Greenstein can't play, he's established his bona fides, but no one cares how you train for your fights. They want to see the fights. Same thing here - want to be the top guy in the world, get the most bracelets.

[Ron_Mexico 4,219]

How much ego does your right nut have?

[njligernj 0]

"You could make millions of dollars if you could beat our game. Do you really think these people would worry about making a few hundred-thousand (dollars) selling DVDs and videos if you could make millions playing poker? It's pretty obvious, isn't it? Even if they could beat the game there are still swings. I don't see why someone wouldn't take a guaranteed 100K (or whatever) with no-risk for what cannot amount to more than a few days work (for some of the stuff -- books and so forth would take longer). There is no risk -- unless you count the risk of someone creating a fantastically brutal parody of your instructional video, posting it on the net, and subsequently making you the subject of mockery worldwide. FWIW I've seen people talking about cash game v. tournament for years. This discussion went on pre-WPT. The idea that the general poker community isn't aware of a difference between a tournament player and ring game pro is simply false. The average jackass who watches maybe three WPT events a season probably doesn't know -- but is that the kind of person Barry needs confirmation from to feel good about himself?The way you get good is by playing against the best players. So they should give up the +EV of tournaments and promotional stuff to sit down in the big game and "learn" by losing a crapload of money to you? That sounds like a dynamite idea. Why isn't Gus Hansen doing that right now?"The reason these other guys play in tournaments for the most part is because they are broke, because other people put them in a tournament and they've made a name for themselves. But they're not as good as many professionals out there." This is unfair. While that may be true of some I don't think painting the regular tournament pros all with the "TJ brush" is fair."The crankiness is that for years I'd just bite my tongue when the media would talk about losing players being top players in the game," Greenstein said, preferring not to name names. "I'd say, 'OK, they don't know the difference.' And everything I'd read or see on the news is, from where I sit, false. I refuse to believe that some network, somewhere, would not put the big game on TV if they all agreed. In fact one has to think cash games on TV is the next logical step. But until that happens then you won't get recognition. So shut up. Wha Wha. If Michael Jordan played every single game of his life in private, and if anyone who stopped to watch him play was told to keep on walking by security, then nobody would consider him the greatest player of all time. How on earth do you expect people to give you credit? From a handful of allusions to big wins in the game from RGP? A tenth-hand story passed down eventually to the 8-16 game? Someone's blog? Honestly ... how? Who in their right mind complains that they don't get credit from playing in what amounts to an almost private game? It's insanity.

[Vanillathunder 0]

After I read this article, something sort of dawned on me.Barry Greenstein, while donating his winnings to charity, isn't doing it at least in part, for the right reasons.I think it's his way of showing contempt for the "tourney pros". All the money they would kill to get, he just gives away.. maybe as a way to wave the middle finger at them and show his contempt for them being branded as the "greatest" and not him.I dunno... just a though.

[Nikki_N 17]

After I read this article, something sort of dawned on me.Barry Greenstein, while donating his winnings to charity, isn't doing it at least in part, for the right reasons.I think it's his way of showing contempt for the "tourney pros". All the money they would kill to get, he just gives away.. maybe as a way to wave the middle finger at them and show his contempt for them being branded as the "greatest" and not him.I dunno... just a though.

An intriguing thought. I suspect it might be true.

[jerr496 0]

There are several good points for and against what Barry said. Yes, Barry is just protecting the prestige of the biggest game in the world and yes, you have to be a serious player to play in the game - but to say that any other player besides those 5 would get crushed is a misconception. As people mentioned earlier in this thread, they simply cannot play in that game because of their bankroll. The reason those top players do so well in the big game is because they are the ULTIMATE gamblers. It is a zero sum game for them; they are never scared. So if a tournament player who has worked the circuit very hard and built up a $1 million bankroll is a little hestitant to enter a game where they can lose it all on one hand on a bad beat is completely understandable and does not take away from their skills as a poker player. I also agree with the person who said that Barry's comments might be geared to people like the Mouth who is very arrogant and claim to be the best in the world and has never really accomplished anything substantial in the poker world. I am sure DN could hang in that game skill wise, but not "gamble" wise. Anyway, those are my thoughts. GL,Jerry

[TimmyOne 0]

I personally find Greenstein a little bit loveable ...And his opinions get to the heart of what it means to be a great player.Is the greatest poker player the one who can (a) beat the best players in the world or (B) massacre bad player by the widdest margin????

[World Class 0]

I hope Barry put his money where his mouth is and meets Danny at 7 at the Wynn on the 13th.Then we'll see whois superior. I think Barry will be on the losing end.

[dms26 3]

Wow I knew he had an ego, but damn he does make Hellmuth seem like a choir boy. Funny how he doesn't mention Chan, Harman, DN or Gus , it's like he is saying they are losing players.And how much do you think he made for being on the box of Count Chocula for all those years?

[cap gusto 0]

while i think most find barry to be a jerk for his contempt at most tournament players i find myself agreeing with his assesments. there really are five great players which he named that have consistently beaten the biggest game over a long period of time. i think it does attack his ego when ESPN or Mike Sexton talks of how "great" a player ppl like moneymaker, amir vahedi,, dutch boyd, or countless other players who have been on t.v. While these players have had success in say one or two tourneys they haven't really shown anything in a long run. Lastly I don't think having the most bracelets makes you the best (sorry don't remember who said that earlier in this thread). Chip Reese is without a doubt one the greatest poker players of all time and he isn't close to brunson, hellmuth, or chan in bracelet counts.lee

[Naismith 0]

You know, this has been bothering me for a while and now that I see Barry bring it to light, I guess it's okay to discuss it.I feel like there's a higher tier than the #1 tier, and it's the people in my home game. There are only three players that have reached this level, truly. Me, my buddy O'D and my other buddy Mack. The other people in our game are somewhere below our tier (I'll call it the Uber-Super-#1-Tier...or US1T) but just above the level that Barry claims the big players are on. These other guys are FISH!!!!It's always bothered me the amount of credit the tournament players get. And the famous cash game pros. The people in the US1T play both tournaments (20-50 buys!) as well as regular cash games, routinely taking the money off of the guys on the Just-Below-Us-But-Above-#1-Tier that usually show up from their jobs as bartenders a little drunk and wanting to play games like baseball and Iron Cross while getting extremely drunk. Why would these pros want to play in their high limit tournaments or sell merchandise for six figures when they could CONSISTENTLY pocket 200+ dollars per week!Yeah, I'm cranky, but until they get some television coverage over at the house we play at, I guess it'll never change and we'll never get our rightful credit.Peace,Jay

[rog 0]

You tell 'em Barry! And while you're at it, I'm sick of the 100 meter event being the prestige event in track. We all know the 1600 is a man's race. Greene, Bailey, Christie...chumps. All of them They'd get their asses handed to them in a good 4k event. I dont know why the press goes gaga for these sprinters.Maybe if Barry can grow a few inches down there he wont feel a need to make a complete ass of himself in public. My spam box is full of ads that might help him in that department.

[PMJackson21 0]

Wow I knew he had an ego, but damn he does make Hellmuth seem like a choir boy. Funny how he doesn't mention Chan, Harman, DN or Gus , it's like he is saying they are losing players.And how much do you think he made for being on the box of Count Chocula for all those years?

Ha, Barry actually responded to the Count Chocula reference a few months back -http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.ga...6680647b411f42cAt least he can laugh about it. :-)Patrick

[elkang 0]

I think the speculation here is crazy and off. I'm almost offended but hey this is the internet. There's lots of baseless stuff posted all the time.I for one agree with the article. Though I wonder about the specifics. Barry doesn't name anyone, but it sure reads as plausible to me, and I don't have any reason to doubt Barry.

[ajs510 122]

Odd how DN is willing to post his results, and yet Barry who claims to be one of the best ever does not...hmm...

I know I'm just asking for flames for this...but...DN's own data kinda supports this claim. He played 5 sessions of 4000/8000 between February and April. 58 hours of poker at 4000/8000 limit. The final tally at the end (of just those 5 sessions, not counting all the other poker he played during that time) DN was up $163,000. A monumental sum of money to you and me, but absolutely nothing to the people who play in that game. Over the course of 58 hours, he won 20.3 big blinds, or roughly .3 (point three) big blinds per hour. I am certainly not knocking DN's poker abilities, as he would trash me and everyone else I know in every poker game known to mankind (but I would whoop him at Golden Tee :)Just saying that from the data I had to work with, his performance in the big game wasn't anything to write home about in the eyes of the elite poker professionals. Food for thought, gasoline for flames, enjoy.

[trippkc 0]

I'm not quite sure why Barry feels the need to defend himself and the rest of his "Big Game" crew. Obviously the media is going to hype the tournament players because they are trying to sell a product. I'm sure if you talked to Mike Sexton off the camera he would agree with Barry, but while he is on the WPT he is gonna claim whoever on there is one of the greatest. You would think a guy as smart as Barry would realize that while poker is a business for him, it is now a business for ESPN and other media outlets. He needs to take a hint from his buddy Phil Ivey and just sit back and count his money. If ESPN or someone ever televises a cash game, I'm sure the players in it will be "the greatest in the world." Just be grateful that you can play poker and shoot the shit with guys like Doyle as a job.

[alf13 0]

You know...saying that somebody is the best at Poker in the world, is not like saying somebody is the best Baseball Player, Football Player, BasketBall player.The Best Basketball, Baseball, etc... players DO make it to the highest levels.To make it to the highest levels in Poker, you need MONEY...and alot of it....For whatever Barry knows...the best Poker Player in the world might be some 24 year old dude in Nebraska that kills the internet game.....You know that "The Grinder" Michael Mizrachi had NEVER played in a live tourney in his life where the buyin was above $300 before he started playing in the big ones recently? Now go Check the Card Player standings to see how he is doing..... :wink:

[alf13 0]

Odd how DN is willing to post his results, and yet Barry who claims to be one of the best ever does not...hmm...

I know I'm just asking for flames for this...but...DN's own data kinda supports this claim. He played 5 sessions of 4000/8000 between February and April. 58 hours of poker at 4000/8000 limit. The final tally at the end (of just those 5 sessions, not counting all the other poker he played during that time) DN was up $163,000. A monumental sum of money to you and me, but absolutely nothing to the people who play in that game. Over the course of 58 hours, he won 20.3 big blinds, or roughly .3 (point three) big blinds per hour. I am certainly not knocking DN's poker abilities, as he would trash me and everyone else I know in every poker game known to mankind (but I would whoop him at Golden Tee :)Just saying that from the data I had to work with, his performance in the big game wasn't anything to write home about in the eyes of the elite poker professionals. Food for thought, gasoline for flames, enjoy.

UH OH...I can see it coming.....

[dms26 3]

Odd how DN is willing to post his results, and yet Barry who claims to be one of the best ever does not...hmm...

I know I'm just asking for flames for this...but...DN's own data kinda supports this claim. He played 5 sessions of 4000/8000 between February and April. 58 hours of poker at 4000/8000 limit. The final tally at the end (of just those 5 sessions, not counting all the other poker he played during that time) DN was up $163,000. A monumental sum of money to you and me, but absolutely nothing to the people who play in that game. Over the course of 58 hours, he won 20.3 big blinds, or roughly .3 (point three) big blinds per hour. I am certainly not knocking DN's poker abilities, as he would trash me and everyone else I know in every poker game known to mankind (but I would whoop him at Golden Tee :)Just saying that from the data I had to work with, his performance in the big game wasn't anything to write home about in the eyes of the elite poker professionals. Food for thought, gasoline for flames, enjoy.

What do you think Greenstein's win rate is? At least DN was willing to disclose his.

[jooka 0]

You know...saying that somebody is the best at Poker in the world, is not like saying somebody is the best Baseball Player, Football Player, BasketBall player. The Best Basketball, Baseball, etc... players DO make it to the highest levels. To make it to the highest levels in Poker, you need MONEY...and alot of it....

this doesnt fly, to play the highest level live game yes you do need money but the skill to play at this level is far more needed than the money. its like saying any high school punk who plays football will become a pro because no money is required.