Lhe Challenge(?) Thread

[Dirtydutch 8]

if you think he is going to balance that well, which is what i thought you were getting at, then the correct thing to do is play it how you did.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking, which was what I was poorly trying to say in my post.

[DinkDonk 1]

I decided with a bit of help that I prefer flatting the flop and going from there. Thanks for the responses guys.

[Dirtydutch 8]

I decided with a bit of help that I prefer flatting the flop and going from there. Thanks for the responses guys.

So you're never raising in that spot, then? Care to give a little more analysis?

[antistuff 0]

I decided with a bit of help that I prefer flatting the flop and going from there. Thanks for the responses guys.

are you thinking c/c/c or wait until the turn to raise and then bet the river if he doesn't 3 bet you? is it an opponent dependent thing or does it have something to do with the flop texture and your hand? i think both of those lines suffer from range balancing problems unless they are either very rarely used or very commonly used, although this guy might not be paying attention to things like that.

[DinkDonk 1]

So you're never raising in that spot, then? Care to give a little more analysis?

are you thinking c/c/c or wait until the turn to raise and then bet the river if he doesn't 3 bet you? is it an opponent dependent thing or does it have something to do with the flop texture and your hand? i think both of those lines suffer from range balancing problems unless they are either very rarely used or very commonly used, although this guy might not be paying attention to things like that.

After I inevitably bust out of the Sunday Mill, I'll get into it a bit, unless I'm too tilted. But I will do a bit of analysis at some point.

[navybuttons 15]

i always write out long posts and then think better of them.

[Dirtydutch 8]

I honestly don't know what several of those things are, NB, so I'm once again on the edge of my cunt waiting for something.

[checkymcfold 0]

i always write out long posts and then think better of them.advice- spend 2 hours writing out the definitions to the following:edit: if anyone posts his here, i'll PM them mine.

OOH FUN GAME FOR MY 2ND TO LAST DAY OFFi'll post my definitions in a bit.ok, go. (1) is the simple definition as i understand it, (2) is a more extended discussion of the term. if you don't understand set notation, smd. :)range: 1. the possible hands a player might have based on various information given up to a certain point (usually that of analysis). can be either weighted or unweighted based on that player's tendencies.2. mostly used with reference to the possible holdings of a villain on a given hand, this term refers to a closed, weighted set of the possible holdings of a certain player in a certain situation based on the information gathered about that player by the person constructing the set. this term is probably best defined by an example, to follow--player x has defended his BB to player y's button raise by calling preflop in a HU pot. the flop came A27 rainbow, he checked, player y cbet, and player x checkraised. player y now assesses player x's range. from a ridiculously large sample of previous hands, player y knows that player x will 3bet any A8+, KJ+, QJ+, or pocket pair every time player y raises the button, and will raise any ace below that range occasionally, but often enough to be worth noticing (internally, player y says each happens about half the time). similarly, player y knows that player x will call on the bb in that situation with A7- about half of the time (but will never fold these hands), will always call with any directly connected cards or worse king (obviously this is a limited and somewhat unreasonable set, but i don't want the example getting unweildy).on the flop, player y knows that player x will wait until the turn to raise any hand that is tptk or better on uncoordinated boards, but will checkraise any hand with a pair of lower value or draw. he will also c/r any pair+draw combos.player y analyzes player x's "range" as follows:-he didn't 3bet preflop, but he did call. he has suited cards, connected cards, possibly weak aces or kings.-he c/red the flop, which means that he flopped a pair <AK, or a gutterball. pair+draw combos are not possible on this flop. he did not flop 2p or better.preflop info: {1/2, A2; 1/2, A3; 1/2, A4; 1/2, A5; 1/2, A6; 1/2, A7; K10; K9; K8; K7; K6; K5; K4; K3; K2; J10; 910; 89; 78; 67; 56; 45; 34; 23}flop info: {1/2, A2; 1/2, A3; 1/2, A4; 1/2, A5; 1/2, A6; 1/2, A7; K10; K9; K8; K7; K6; K5; K4; K3; K2; J10; 910; 89; 78; 67; 56; 45; 34; 23}= {1/2, A3; 1/2, A4; 1/2, A5; 1/2, A6; K7; K2; 78; 67; 45; 34; 23}, which is player x's final range by player y's analysis.player y holds KK, and thus determines that he is ahead of player x's weighted range in this flop situation. (behind 4x1/2=2 "chances; ahead of 7 "chances," without weighting for possible dead cards and/or combos, which is rarely necessary.i will do more like this later. that was more exhausting than i thought.i also unquoted, lol.

[tuckermitchell 1]

OOH FUN GAME FOR MY 2ND TO LAST DAY OFF

:D wow, maybe I'll never be good enough to play 3/6

[navybuttons 15]

i will do more like this later.

the important part is that you learn where it is in your definitions you are unclear or feel you still have room to understand something better.

[antistuff 0]

:D wow, maybe I'll never be good enough to play 3/6

like most things math-y, it looks a lot more complicated than it is. basically he is just describing how to read hands.like say you know this guy plays tight. he raises from first position.so you say ok, tens and better, AQo and better, AJs and better, maybe KQs. (im being hypothetical so dont get hung up on my examples)there are two callers and the button 3 bets. the blind fold and he just calls. well, he didn't cap preflop. so now we can cut some hands out of what his possible hands are. so by process of elimination you create a group of possible hands that he could have. and with each action you can narrow it farther and farther. (actually it would be better to say that with each piece of information you gather you can narrow it)so we say he has a range of hands.

[tuckermitchell 1]

like most things math-y, it looks a lot more complicated than it is. basically he is just describing how to read hands.like say you know this guy plays tight. he raises from first position.so you say ok, tens and better, AQo and better, AJs and better, maybe KQs. (im being hypothetical so dont get hung up on my examples)there are two callers and the button 3 bets. the blind fold and he just calls. well, he didn't cap preflop. so now we can cut some hands out of what his possible hands are. so by process of elimination you create a group of possible hands that he could have. and with each action you can narrow it farther and farther. (actually it would be better to say that with each piece of information you gather you can narrow it)so we say he has a range of hands.

I guess I was trying to be more tongue in cheek than anything. I did have to read his post twice to kind of digest it but I do realize that it is exactly as you simplified it. I was just joking about how in depth it was written. I guess that is kind of what NB was after though, but it still was a little Bill Chen-y the first time I looked at it.

[Dirtydutch 8]

I'm running so hot that I'm actually concerned that I'll use up all my luck for the year. I've been pounding this short FR table for like 20 minutes. At first I was just taking down either the blinds or the pot on every turn, but then a couple of them went heroic while at the same time God finally heard my prayers. IT WAS A FIRE FIIIIIGGGHHHHTTT!Here's the best hand that's ever happened, right before the table filled:Preflop: Hero is UTG with A, AHero raise, MP calls, 3 foldsFlop: (3.5 SB) 10, A, A(2 players)Hero bets, MP raises, Hero calls.Turn: (2.75 BB) 6(2 players)Hero checks, MP bets, Hero raises, MP reraises, Hero caps, MP calls.River: (2.75 BB) 7(2 players)Hero bets, MP raises, Hero reraises, MP caps, Hero callsMP shows QdJd. Poker's stupid.

[antistuff 0]

I'm running so hot that I'm actually concerned that I'll use up all my luck for the year. I've been pounding this short FR table for like 20 minutes. At first I was just taking down either the blinds or the pot on every turn, but then a couple of them went heroic while at the same time God finally heard my prayers. IT WAS A FIRE FIIIIIGGGHHHHTTT!Here's the best hand that's ever happened, right before the table filled:Preflop: Hero is UTG with A, AHero raise, MP calls, 3 foldsFlop: (3.5 SB) 10, A, A(2 players)Hero bets, MP raises, Hero calls.Turn: (2.75 BB) 6(2 players)Hero checks, MP bets, Hero raises, MP reraises, Hero caps, MP calls.River: (2.75 BB) 7(2 players)Hero bets, MP raises, Hero reraises, MP caps, Hero callsMP shows QdJd. Poker's stupid.

the years almost over, don't sweat it.

[tuckermitchell 1]

PokerStars Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (5 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comPreflop: Hero is BB with 10 , 10 :spade:UTG calls, MP calls, 1 fold, SB calls, Hero raises, UTG calls, MP calls, SB callsFlop: (8 SB) 9 , A , 7 (4 players)SB checks, Hero bets, UTG calls, MP calls, SB callsTurn: (6 BB) 4 (4 players)SB checks, Hero checks, UTG checks, MP checksRiver: (6 BB) 2 (4 players)SB checks, Hero checks, UTG checks, MP bets, SB calls, Hero ???I folded here as I had little to no reads on both players and limited stats as they had just sat down within about 10 hands... in the 10 hands they were both 50/0/0.Should I just be calling here? I was more afraid of UTG c/r as he had done so with Ax on similar boards twice in past 75 hands. oh, UTG is 38/12/1.6

[tuckermitchell 1]

Try to ignore the PFR because I was semi tilty and I am trying to shore up this damn leak in LHE that is coming from NLHE. Anyways, in these situations where we are the aggressor throughout the hand, especially at a passive table, do you bet out on the river?PokerStars Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comPreflop: Hero is MP with 8 , 6 :heart:UTG calls, Hero raises, CO calls, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls, UTG callsFlop: (12 SB) 3 , 9 , 4 (6 players)SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets, CO calls, 1 fold, SB calls, BB calls, 1 foldTurn: (8 BB) Q (4 players)SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets, CO calls, SB calls, BB callsRiver: (12 BB) J (4 players)SB checks, BB checks, Hero ????

[antistuff 0]

PokerStars Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (5 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comPreflop: Hero is BB with 10 , 10 :spade:UTG calls, MP calls, 1 fold, SB calls, Hero raises, UTG calls, MP calls, SB callsFlop: (8 SB) 9 , A , 7 (4 players)SB checks, Hero bets, UTG calls, MP calls, SB callsTurn: (6 BB) 4 (4 players)SB checks, Hero checks, UTG checks, MP checksRiver: (6 BB) 2 (4 players)SB checks, Hero checks, UTG checks, MP bets, SB calls, Hero ???I folded here as I had little to no reads on both players and limited stats as they had just sat down within about 10 hands... in the 10 hands they were both 50/0/0.Should I just be calling here? I was more afraid of UTG c/r as he had done so with Ax on similar boards twice in past 75 hands. oh, UTG is 38/12/1.6

i like the way you played it. with very specific reads on both the better and the caller you can consider calling, as it is i don't call here.

[antistuff 0]

Try to ignore the PFR because I was semi tilty and I am trying to shore up this damn leak in LHE that is coming from NLHE. Anyways, in these situations where we are the aggressor throughout the hand, especially at a passive table, do you bet out on the river?PokerStars Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comPreflop: Hero is MP with 8 , 6 :heart:UTG calls, Hero raises, CO calls, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls, UTG callsFlop: (12 SB) 3 , 9 , 4 (6 players)SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets, CO calls, 1 fold, SB calls, BB calls, 1 foldTurn: (8 BB) Q (4 players)SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets, CO calls, SB calls, BB callsRiver: (12 BB) J (4 players)SB checks, BB checks, Hero ????

i think a check on the river is good. i might even check this turn, although with only two opponents i would bet this turn because that flop is such that it leads itself to very light peels.

[navybuttons 15]

River: (12 BB) J (4 players)SB checks, BB checks, Hero ????

fist pump insta bets. like not even close.

[GWCGWC 83]

PokerStars Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (5 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comPreflop: Hero is BB with 10 , 10 :spade:UTG calls, MP calls, 1 fold, SB calls, Hero raises, UTG calls, MP calls, SB callsFlop: (8 SB) 9 , A , 7 (4 players)SB checks, Hero bets, UTG calls, MP calls, SB callsTurn: (6 BB) 4 (4 players)SB checks, Hero checks, UTG checks, MP checksRiver: (6 BB) 2 (4 players)SB checks, Hero checks, UTG checks, MP bets, SB calls, Hero ???I folded here as I had little to no reads on both players and limited stats as they had just sat down within about 10 hands... in the 10 hands they were both 50/0/0.Should I just be calling here? I was more afraid of UTG c/r as he had done so with Ax on similar boards twice in past 75 hands. oh, UTG is 38/12/1.6

I call

fist pump insta bets. like not even close.

Yep, and the reason is so simple. We can't win the pot otherwise. A bet is very unlikely to get 3 folds since the jack probably hit someone. We can only win the pot with a bet here and why stop spewing on the river?

[tuckermitchell 1]

Last one for tonight I think.In these spots, especially when I am running salty over a decent sample (250ish hands) I feel like I am losing value on these types of hands. Med/high PP on over flop. When I lead this flop and get called by someone (in this case a 34/17/1.1) whom I've seen call 2 and 3 preflop with weak aces I usually go into c/c mode when HU and c/f mode multiway. I just hate to go c/c all the way down and see him have nada. Am I saving bets or losing value in most cases here?PokerStars Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comPreflop: Hero is UTG with 10 , 10 Hero raises, MP calls, 3 folds, BB callsFlop: (6.4 SB) Q , 5 , A (3 players)BB checks, Hero bets, 1 fold, BB callsTurn: (4.2 BB) 4 (2 players)BB checks, Hero checksRiver: (4.2 BB) Q (2 players)BB checks, Hero checksTotal pot: $2.10 (4.2 BB) | Rake: $0.10

[GWCGWC 83]

Last one for tonight I think.In these spots, especially when I am running salty over a decent sample (250ish hands) I feel like I am losing value on these types of hands. Med/high PP on over flop. When I lead this flop and get called by someone (in this case a 34/17/1.1) whom I've seen call 2 and 3 preflop with weak aces I usually go into c/c mode when HU and c/f mode multiway. I just hate to go c/c all the way down and see him have nada. Am I saving bets or losing value in most cases here?PokerStars Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comPreflop: Hero is UTG with 10 , 10 Hero raises, MP calls, 3 folds, BB callsFlop: (6.4 SB) Q , 5 , A (3 players)BB checks, Hero bets, 1 fold, BB callsTurn: (4.2 BB) 4 (2 players)BB checks, Hero checksRiver: (4.2 BB) Q (2 players)BB checks, Hero checksTotal pot: $2.10 (4.2 BB) | Rake: $0.10

Bet the turn, check the river, lose to Q9os.

[navybuttons 15]

A bet is very unlikely to get 3 folds since the jack probably hit someone. We can only win the pot with a bet here and why stop spewing on the river?

whoops, i didn't see that we need 3 folds, that definitely makes it a lot closer. now i feel less familiar with the spot.fwiw, i don't think any part of the hand previously was terrible spew. i would think that at worse, any wrong decision was probably about -.2SB in expectation. the important part is that you learn how costly mistakes (like the preflop one and being "slightly tilty") can be.

[antistuff 0]

Last one for tonight I think.In these spots, especially when I am running salty over a decent sample (250ish hands) I feel like I am losing value on these types of hands. Med/high PP on over flop. When I lead this flop and get called by someone (in this case a 34/17/1.1) whom I've seen call 2 and 3 preflop with weak aces I usually go into c/c mode when HU and c/f mode multiway. I just hate to go c/c all the way down and see him have nada. Am I saving bets or losing value in most cases here?PokerStars Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comPreflop: Hero is UTG with 10 , 10 Hero raises, MP calls, 3 folds, BB callsFlop: (6.4 SB) Q , 5 , A (3 players)BB checks, Hero bets, 1 fold, BB callsTurn: (4.2 BB) 4 (2 players)BB checks, Hero checksRiver: (4.2 BB) Q (2 players)BB checks, Hero checksTotal pot: $2.10 (4.2 BB) | Rake: $0.10

you gotta bet that turn.

[GWCGWC 83]

whoops, i didn't see that we need 3 folds, that definitely makes it a lot closer. now i feel less familiar with the spot.fwiw, i don't think any part of the hand previously was terrible spew. i would think that at worse, any wrong decision was probably about -.2SB in expectation. the important part is that you learn how costly mistakes (like the preflop one and being "slightly tilty") can be.

This hand was nothing but spew. Still, one more BB is a no brainer when it's the only way we can win after taking the lead for the hand. You're doing some kind of ninja math to come up with an expectation number without knowing anything other than our hole cards, # of players at the table and what position we have in the hand. The "important" part is the simple truth.