Tuan Le is being accused of cheating....

[NicksDad1970 0]

I like Paul's honesty and the fact that he's not scared to bring things like this to light. The same obviously goes for Harry. As far as soft playing or collusion whether they're the same thing or different it's a big concern. I've recently started playing some online because I'm too lazy for the 1 hour drive. Online play is sketchy to say the least IMHO. Maybe I'm just paranoid but I always wonder if there's a few buddies on a table putting me in the middle.A little off topic I know but when I actually think of something independantly I must share.BTW, For those that don't know Harry he's at least as kind as projected on TV. At least that's from the very few times I've been around him.

[LAPoker 0]

I guess the larger question is whether staking should be prohibited, as it leads to a conflict of interest if you meet on the same table. As to the specific example of Hasan and Tuan Le, I don't see proof from the examples that there was collusion. Tuan Le plays aggessively, so it is not the case that there is a pattern of him playing differently against Hasan there, knowing he would be cut a break. From Hasan's point of view, it is hard to see how dumping chips would help him more than just winning the hand. The most you can say is that it might have been a factor if he was undecided whether to risk a call. That would be a type of collusion, but impossible to prove, and Hasan might have done it unconsciously, still thinking of his own tournament situation.

You must not have read the part of this thread where Dimitiri lays out that Hassan stood to gain more in his 50% stake in Tuan, then if he were to have to split winning the tournement with all of his backers. It's funny because I remember waking up in the morning and reading the results thinking what the hell. How did Hassan blow that big of a lead. I don't know for sure what happend, and we probably never will, but something definitely smells fishy.

[Smasharoo 0]

Maybe I'm just paranoid

[HarryDemetriou 0]

HarryDemetriou

"There were numerous plays at the final which when considered in conjunction with the various cross percentage ownerships of some of the players could lead you to very questionable conclusions and a feeling of wanting to puke."

To late Demetriou!

I actually posted this on April 28th under the tournament poker section prior to this thread being started and prior to that on another website.

I think it was a joke Harry. Notice the face throwing up.

Sincerest apologies I didn't recognize that smilicon and couldn't work out what it meant.Now that I look at it again it is clearly a face throwing up and very funny:-) You have to remember I'm the wrong side of forty and not totally au fait with all the latest smilicons.

[DeNuts1 0]

Off topic but just curious......Anyone know where Harry finished in the tourney?

[Smasharoo 0]

Anyone know where Harry finished in the tourney?One would suspect at least one poster on this thread would.

[rexmundi 0]

lmao I dunno whats funnier.The fact that a poker celebirty is on here owning people, or the kissups who want his autograph.Welcome to the FCP forums. We're not all idiots. Just most of the people above.

yeah, isn't it great? I still have 5 pages to sift through, and already paulp > smash.. That's so hillarious.

[PVeLLi 0]

ZITO I ELLADA DEMETRIOUUUUUUU!!!!Just wanted to say what's up cuz Harry is reading this post. GREEK POWER BABY!!!Collusion/Cheating sux, pure and simple.Poker in itself is not very honorable, and if it needs to be cleaned up, pure and simple, get rid of peopel allowing to buy stakes/percentages of other people, just like in other "sports." At least in tournament poker in my opinion.That is the only way you'll be able to stop stuff like this, by getting rid of people betting/buying eachother etc.Play the tournament, you win, you win, you don't too bad. I dunno oh well and to harry Xristos Anesti and all other orthodox greeks Xristos Anesti

[LAPoker 0]

ZITO I ELLADA DEMETRIOUUUUUUU!!!!Just wanted to say what's up cuz Harry is reading this post. GREEK POWER BABY!!!Collusion/Cheating sux, pure and simple.Poker in itself is not very honorable, and if it needs to be cleaned up, pure and simple, get rid of peopel allowing to buy stakes/percentages of other people, just like in other "sports." At least in tournament poker in my opinion.That is the only way you'll be able to stop stuff like this, by getting rid of people betting/buying eachother etc.Play the tournament, you win, you win, you don't too bad. I dunno oh well and to harry Xristos Anesti and all other orthodox greeks Xristos Anesti

Dude that is hilarious I've got this rap dude speaking Greek.

[JFarrell20 1]

Paul is against stakes being exchanged at all, which is fine.

Maybe I'm wrong but I thought I remembered him talking about trying to sell 100% of himself in a tourney when he was down to like 15XBB. lol. The first place prize was like 1.8M, too.He could have been talking about selling to someone who was not participating in the tournament. I don't know.

[Royal_Tour 0]

ZITO I ELLADA DEMETRIOUUUUUUU!!!!Just wanted to say what's up cuz Harry is reading this post. GREEK POWER BABY!!!Collusion/Cheating sux, pure and simple.Poker in itself is not very honorable, and if it needs to be cleaned up, pure and simple, get rid of peopel allowing to buy stakes/percentages of other people, just like in other "sports." At least in tournament poker in my opinion.That is the only way you'll be able to stop stuff like this, by getting rid of people betting/buying eachother etc.Play the tournament, you win, you win, you don't too bad. I dunno oh well and to harry Xristos Anesti and all other orthodox greeks Xristos Anesti

Sorry.. But poker the game has nothing to do with people who play it, or the people who have played it.Its a stereotype that all players are in the game to cheat, or hustle others.You could say the same about any game/sport

[ArseneLupin3 0]

However, if paul is right and there was a collusion

That's such a perfect summary of why I don't frequent places like this.Why would you write something like that? Isn't it interesting enough to discuss the things that people actually say without inventing your own fascinating twists? It gets so old having to add twenty pages of qualifications for those who are unwilling to "play it as it lies" and that wearisome task is a huge part of why it's tremendously unappealing to participate here (along with most every other poker forum.)

Paul, Smoothcall says hi. He thinks I am your minion, but I assure you I am (mostly) not. We just both have difficulties in politely telling other people how stupid they are sometimes.-adam

[custom36 4]

Custom dont start calling paul a jerk you had your mouth around his balls and he posted a negative comment and now your trying to ridicule him, let it go man he cant answer all you guys at the same time and most likely doesnt care about your comment

Where the hell was my mouth around his balls? Go ahead, show me. Oh, you can't find an example? Shut the hell up. He found the time to say he can't find the comment. I have shown the comment to him - we'll see if he can take the time to respond.

[ofplayer 0]

To think, I was just about to challange you to a $100,000 Scrabble match, too.Your loss.How about me, Smash? I can even probably get Paul to back me, even though he and I haven't seen eye to eye in the past?I guess the hope of getting Scrabble to be a non-joke in these forums will never be realized...

[yeffy 0]

Not joking, I just wanted to understand the world according to Smash. Earlier in the thread you were insulting people for saying it was collusion and using terms like "moron". But then as your own argument morphed you were beginning to imply it can be a form of collusion. Very confusing.  It's not confusing at all.I think you'll find I didn't insult anyone who didn't specificaly insult me first, and that I have consistently made the point that softplaying is wrong, is cheating, and isn't collusion.  Which it isn't.  It frequently occurs as a result of collusion and it frequently occurs without collusion.Therefore it would be a massive stretch to adamantly deny that in this case softplay would not be a form of collusion.  Couldn't agree more.Doesn't make sofplaying collusion.

Now I'm confused again. You have admitted that if two people are entered into a prior arrangement to softplay one another than it is collusion. But yet you simultaneously continue to insist that softplaying isn't collusion. So I ask you, what is your definition of softplaying? And once you define that, how is an instance of two people entering into an agreement to (insert softplay definition) not a form of collusion?

[DeNuts1 0]

To think' date=' I was just about to challange you to a $100' date='000 Scrabble match, too.Your loss.How about me, Smash? I can even probably get Paul to back me, even though he and I haven't seen eye to eye in the past?I guess [b'']the hope of getting Scrabble to be a non-joke in these forums will never be realized...

The sooner you realize this the better.

[Smasharoo 0]

How about me, Smash? I can even probably get Paul to back me, even though he and I haven't seen eye to eye in the past?I guess the hope of getting Scrabble to be a non-joke in these forums will never be realized...I was kidding. Paul plays high stakes Scrabble, I mispell good 90 percent fo the time.

[Vanillathunder 0]

After sifting through this entire thread:Poker as a game is about lies, misrepresentation and deceit. It's about making the "right" decision based on your circumstances and evaluating your position and how it will be the most profitable to you at any given moment. To be a top-player, you need to master these skills and practice them *every second* you're playing the game.Don't be surprised if a few guys let those skills bleed over into other parts of their lives and use them to their advantage. Its sucks if it's true, it certainly taints the game but don't get all flabbergasted when it happens or try to justify the instances in which you're involved.Softplaying your friends, people you back... etc, is immoral at best. You can justify checking down or dumping byyour personal relationships with those people but is it not exactly the same thing except that you don't own a stake?The money is the difference in this case. If you softplay your friends it's relatively the same as dumping to a stake. Say what you will about it, but it's still an implicit cheat to the other players at the table.A good player divorces his feelings from his chips and his friends at the table. He plays the game sharp and decisively and strives to make the best decision. Sklansky says "The objective of poker is to make correct decisions". Ask yourself this in relation to your game...If you've got the case hand and your buddy is betting into you, do you take the action or "give him the look" to let him know that he's beaten.Now, if you're a poker player the right decision to to take his money. Why? It's the right decision for your stack.There are no friends/partners at the table, just cards and the stacks. If you disagree with that you're either a rogue or a moron.

[ofplayer 0]

How about me, Smash? I can even probably get Paul to back me, even though he and I haven't seen eye to eye in the past?I guess the hope of getting Scrabble to be a non-joke in these forums will never be realized...I was kidding. Paul plays high stakes Scrabble, I mispell good 90 percent fo the time.

Actually, Paul doesn't play high stakes Scrabble, in fact such a thing doesn't exist. Paul's playing with the recreational players (rating is somewhere around 12-1300 I think) as mostly a hobby because he never took the time to either learn all the words or the strategy of the game.I'm not claiming that Scrabble is understood as well theoretically as poker, but it's still understood pretty well. Maybe all of Daniel's "math guys" should move over to Scrabble, and if enough of them move over we can get some reasonable cash games going...

[minorityreport 0]

This topic is bring out the big guns. Any comments from DN, Harman, Helmuth, Arieh, or any of the other pros who have posted here?

Dude, Harry friggin' Demetriou just posted!

Linen needs to be washed in public be it dirty or otherwise and burying your head in the sand or not having an opinion doesn't help.This is an important issue that needs to be discussed and I for one am saddened that Paul Phillips has taken so much stick over this for expressing an honest opinion openly.

Paul is not merely stating an opinion on this forum. He is--in a very clumsy, indirect fashion-- making false accusations and ruining reputations. His statements are full of slippery slopes and ad hoc logic.A stronger case for collusion has to be made (forget the semantic argument, I'm assuming that softplaying is a form of collusion/cheating), there is still not a clear and convincing showing that Tuan and Hasan softplayed against each other.

[Smasharoo 0]

Maybe all of Daniel's "math guys" should move over to Scrabble, and if enough of them move over we can get some reasonable cash games going...I wouldn't hold my breath.Being as you seem more versed it in than I, would you say there was more or less luck in Scrabble than Holdem? I'd tend to assume less, but I really would't have the faintest notion.

[Mattnxtc 0]

Does anybody know what Tuan had? Until we see what both had we of course can accuse them of cheating. But until we see how it was played then we cant say. Also maybe HH mistakenly thought it was better for him to be heads up against Tuan. Who knows. With some players you just dont want to give them chips kinda like we all always say how if phil ivey has chips hes dangerous. Maybe folding was the better of the two options.. Until HH explains the hand and why he did what he did we can all sit here and call them cheaters. Remember most of us believed that Raymer was full of crap and just got lucky like MM did to win the WSOP. Then we all got to watch Raymer explain each hand and wow did a lot of perceptions of him change. Now that there is an accusation out there...The least we can do is wait for HH to give us a response. If he doesnt well then it is mostly likely he is avoiding it and he woudl look very incriminating

[Smasharoo 0]

Does anybody know what Tuan had?Why would that matter at all?

[Pupsta 0]

Does anybody know what Tuan had? Until we see what both had we of course can accuse them of cheating. But until we see how it was played then we cant say. Also maybe HH mistakenly thought it was better for him to be heads up against Tuan. Who knows. With some players you just dont want to give them chips kinda like we all always say how if phil ivey has chips hes dangerous. Maybe folding was the better of the two options.. Until HH explains the hand and why he did what he did we can all sit here and call them cheaters. Remember most of us believed that Raymer was full of crap and just got lucky like MM did to win the WSOP. Then we all got to watch Raymer explain each hand and wow did a lot of perceptions of him change. Now that there is an accusation out there...The least we can do is wait for HH to give us a response. If he doesnt well then it is mostly likely he is avoiding it and he woudl look very incriminating

what does it matter what tuan had? if tuan had aces or kings or something like that, then people would just start chiming in that tuan shot him a tell to let him know that he had a v strong hand.

[MarkZ 0]

Please post here more often. Hilarious.