Tuan Le is being accused of cheating....

[rog 0]

I have a question that concerns "softplaying".When my friends and I go to AC, we try to not play at the same table. However, if we do, we try to stay out of each others way, since we can take each other's money at home. If we are in a hand together, and someone else is in it, we play it straight up..may the best man win. However, if during the course of the hand, the third party mucks, we then check it down as to not take each other's money heads up. My questions, is this illegal or unethical? I didn't think it was, but now I am not so sure. Keep in mind, we only check it down once we are heads up.Thank

This is softplaying

Yeah, it's softplaying, but it it cheating? Does this give either of you an advantage over the field? In limit ring games, certainly not. Once everyone else is out of the hand, it makes no difference (to the field) who wins this hand since stack size is unimportant. In NL, a big stack can be wielded against shorter stacks, so dumping to create a chip leader would clearly be cheating, but this is just not betting a hand any further. If this is tourney play, then I would say what you're doing is wrong. In ring games, I dont think it's a problem.

[Erudis 0]

Here's something that needs to be cleared up first and foremost: Poker is NOT a game about lies and deciept in the ordinary sense. It's a confusion to think that 'lies' and 'deciept' in poker is synonomous to the same words used in other contexts. There is no implied immorality in, say, a bluff. There IS implied immorality when I say GW Bush lied to me. So this pseudo-argument/excuse/analogy/whatever-it-is is invalid.To be clear: there is no correlation between the structure of the game itself (poker) and the integrity of its players. That is, though it is true in poker you must at times 'trick' your opponent, it does not follow that any claim of integrity can be made about the player doing the tricking because he did in fact 'lie' or 'trick' his opponent. This is a silly confusion and a poor understanding both of competition and morality. It very well may be the case that there are people in poker that will take any edge they can (ala Ed Norton in 'Rounders'), however, this is not because it is poker that they are playing. Cheating should therefore not be thought of as something that 'comes with the territory.' That's just a hedge for people to try and justify being cheaters and a poor attempt at an excuse for why cheating in poker or gambling should be thought somehow different than cheating in, say, politics, the classroom, or anywhere else.

so participators in this thread, i think it would be a better idea to discuss the problems of staking each other and what it could mean for the poker world and how to stop/reduce it.

there is no stopping/reducing it. it happened in the past, it happens now, and it will continue to happen.

this isn't an argument. it's a prediction based on what? history? I don't see any argument for why nothing can be done about this.Furthermore, I'm inclined to agree that it will continue to happen just as I'm inclined to agree there will always be murderers. What sort of point is this? does it follow: thus, no preventative measures should be discussed and implemented?

it does no harm to the poker world,

false? case in point the current issue. even supposing habib and haun are innocent, doesn't this still cast a dark shadow on poker? i don't think it's hard to see why that might be harmful on all levels of poker from the big stakes to the low stakes...

unless an extreme situation like what occured happens, and even then, unless it's absolutely blatant collusion/softplay/cheating, nothing can be done about it. If we see someone fold AA to someone else's allin at a final table, then we'll have an argument. Until then, people can fold KJs to their hearts' content.

No, we have an argument now. what there is a lack of is evidence of incidents where it has unquestionably taken place ("it" here meaning softplay/collusion/cheating because of would-be opponents having vested interests in each other)I completely agree that players having stakes in each other does not necessarily imply that they will not play to their full potential at the poker table. I agree that in baseball a manager can bet for or against his team and still manage to the best of his abilities regardless of how he bet the game. However, betting on baseball is forbidden by players and managers because of the potential problems as it should be in poker tournaments (because of potential problems like the one currently being discussed) if they are to be thought of as legitimate and worthy of the attention they're getting.Obviously in utopia you could expect that all players will always do their best at all times regardless of vested interests in opponents, but we don't live there.Whether it can be prevented or not is a different issue. It seems to (and this is just my opinion) that the future of poker, if it is to continue on from its current success, will include a legitamized 'PGA'-style union/club/association/league that will be promoted and regulated as the PGA is now. Conditions of memberships should and probably will include that staking opponents or betting on opponents is stictly forbidden and infractions will include dismissal from the league. The incentive to join the NPA (nat'l poker association) will be, say, double prize-pools (buy in for 10k, but the prize-pool is calculated as if each player bought in for 20k, the extra money available because of TV contracts, merchandise, self-promotion, etc just like any other sports league). The incentive not to be dismissed will be you're labeled a cheater and you won't have access to a mainstream, regulated league that offers it's members 2-1 on their buy ins.Obviously an NPA wouldn't replace cash-games and other tournaments no more than the PGA has replaced the analogous activities in golf. Ok, I"m getting off topic here. But this is my idea for how the growth of poker can continue and prevention of cheating can be established. The WPT, for one, should take notes as they could realistically do this. Paul Phillips, you could take note of this too. Form a league. Otherwise what is your expectation; that players are just going to police themselves and everything will work itself out if dirty-laundry is aired publicly?anyway, that's about 2 cents worth I think

[HarryDemetriou 0]

Anyone know where Harry finished in the tourney?One would suspect at least one poster on this thread would.

I lost approx 12k of my stack the first day and was knocked out first hand of my second day having played evry badly throughout the tournament.But I was fortunate enough to back someone who placed in the money making me a nice profit and I did get some prizemoney in the first event.

[ChkDeezNuts 0]

Well...that explains Smasharoo's involvement in this thread.What a horribly innacurate definition of dyslexia. Explains how you could be so confused about word usage.Oh wait, it does't. You posted the corect definition and STILL screwed it up.Hahaha.In the very same post.HAhahah.Man that still kills me.

Are you doing Heroin or Crack or are you just goofy?

[Smasharoo 0]

But I was fortunate enough to back someone who placed in the money making me a nice profit and I did get some prizemoney in the first event.You have no idea the restraint it takes not to make a pithy comment about how you'd have played hm at the final table if it came to that :)Like anyone else, I'm certian.

[DeNuts1 0]

Another thing I just thought of. I remember in Tuan's earlier win on the WPT Mike Sexton said that Barry Greenstein was his teacher. Wonder what Greenstein thinks of this?

[Absolute 0]

Paul Phillips really needs to grow up. The dude has a new kid but he's still surfing around the net picking fights with people he doesn't know. You'd think he would have more interesting things to do (and more important) than being the saviour of poker. NOYou overly sensative prigs need to get over this ludicrous Puritan Hal Monitor syndrome.Paul's not picking fights, he just making his points advasarialy. Which is what you do when you disagree with someone.Surely you guys can all go hold hands and sing Cumbya on your own time and wander the strets admonshing grown adults not to use words you find objectionable, right?

How fucking true.

[Smasharoo 0]

Are you doing Heroin or Crack or are you just goofy?Please tell me that's not the best you have left.I mean, honestly, is that it?I'm not even going to bother.

[HarryDemetriou 0]

ZITO I ELLADA DEMETRIOUUUUUUU!!!!and to harry Xristos Anesti and all other orthodox greeks Xristos Anesti

Alithos O KyriosFor those that do not know it's Greek Easter this Sunday (and that's the proper one not the imitation one of a few weeks back)

[HarryDemetriou 0]

But I was fortunate enough to back someone who placed in the money making me a nice profit and I did get some prizemoney in the first event.You have no idea the restraint it takes not to make a pithy comment about how you'd have played hm at the final table if it came to that  :)Like anyone else, I'm certian.

In all honesty I would have tried to bust him like any other opponent.There would be absolutely no question of soft playing either way and my integrity is worth more to me than anything else on this planet.A person without personal honour and integrity is nothing.

[Mattnxtc 0]

Wow there are some paranoid people on this thread. I will say that I actually do agree for once with smash. Soft playin is different in that i might have a monster hand but not completely drain my freind although if he were to go all in I of course would call. So its up to HH to clarifiy his thoughts. Maybe HH did stake part of Tuans buy in. That doesnt mean that Tuan went all in knowing HH would help him build a stack. Ive given people money to play before and Ill still bust them if i know I have the best handSmashs take on Paul is pretty much correct. Paul being a millionare doesnt worry as much about money as other "grinders" do. I tend to think that without his millions it would be a whole new story from him. Also whats so wrong about laying down a kj? Ive done it before if Ive felt my opponent will have an ace or a high pocket pair. Im sure a lot of yall have done it too. When somebody is all in against you..that king high just doesnt look as good. Now if HH had an ace jack well they it would be obvious but with just a king high he is going to have to catch a jack or king to beat a lot of different hands. So why risk it? Why not wait until your odds are better? In HH and Tuans case why would u risk doubling up the short stack when you arent certain you have the best stack. It seems that so many on here are so quick to judge the hand without knowing a lot of the info or for that matter putting yourself into HH position. I for one dont know what I would do in that shape but folding that hand would have seriously crossed my mind.

[ChkDeezNuts 0]

Are you doing Heroin or Crack or are you just goofy?Please tell me that's not the best you have left.I mean, honestly, is that it?I'm not even going to bother.

I guess you are just goofy....Smash....you got issues man....may I suggest that you give your toaster a Bath?..... :-)

[Absolute 0]

Only the masses of General Forum situation can mess this one up.A guy posts something on his personal journal, a speculation which is completely valid and very much a SPECULATION. Paul isn't a whistleblower. He's been fighting these backdoor handshake under-the-table behind-your-back deals since he sat down at a poker player.Not to mention he is about the most intelligent person in the poker world, and I won't really field any arguments from anyone who spends their days in General looking up Hellmuth posts. I mean, we get a funny-as-hell, knowledgeable guy who is an insider and a million dollar making pro on the message board, and here is what he gets.

Hey Paul...instead of being such an arrogant ******* when you post here, why don't you try to educate instead of denigrate (wow..rhymed..cool).

Paul Phillips really needs to grow up. The dude has a new kid but he's still surfing around the net picking fights with people he doesn't know. You'd think he would have more interesting things to do (and more important) than being the saviour of poker.

That one just sucks.

Paul is not merely stating an opinion on this forum. He is--in a very clumsy, indirect fashion-- making false accusations and ruining reputations. His statements are full of slippery slopes and ad hoc logic.

he didnt even post it here man, talk about slippery slopes.

[poker_bull 0]

Are you doing Heroin or Crack or are you just goofy?Please tell me that's not the best you have left.I mean, honestly, is that it?I'm not even going to bother.

I guess you are just goofy....Smash....you got issues man....may I suggest that you give your toaster a Bath?

In all honesty, you appear to have just as many issues as Smash does. You're taking it way too personally. Just let it go.

[tling 0]

Or it's a good chance to make a stupid call and give him some more chips.  Even if Tuan has an A2 offsuit, Habib is an underdog.

A2o is a god-awful example because he's easily getting the right price to call against that hand, but since most people aren't generous enough to play with their cards face-up, hasan can only make a decision based on the range of hands tuan could hold. Let me guess, you think tuan's hand range is "everything that's a favorite over KJs, and nothing else." If that's the case then you're right, that'd be a pretty stupid call.Exercise to the reader what tuan's actual hand range was likely to be, and how KJs fares against it.

Sucks that Habib and Le aren't here to defend themselves. I'll give it a shot.1) Habib may have felt that Tuan was tightening up on the shortstack and maybe was waiting for something worthwhile (A-x or PP) to push with (considering that Tuan had played passively in the 5 hands prior to 117). Although he had odds (barely) to make that call (he was getting about 13-8, while A-x or a PP could be around 11-9), it was still pretty borderline, and he might have just wanted to keep the chip lead instead of taking the bad side of a weighted coinflip. By folding, Habib keeps his small chiplead, and Le is still on morphine drip.2) Habib knew that since Maxfield and he had about even chips, if Tuan is left on the respirator, Maxfield is less inclined to battle hard for a pot (unless he has the goods) until Le is out. By keeping the critically short-stacked Le in there, and with Maxfield to his left, he puts himself in better position to steal when he's SB vs. Maxfield's BB.Not saying it was the right/wrong play, or that these are even semi-decent reasons for folding, but just throwing a few suggestions in there for the ex parte collusion tribunal. I don't think we need to find a great reason, just something that might have been going on in Habib's head other than collusion.

[ChkDeezNuts 0]

Are you doing Heroin or Crack or are you just goofy?Please tell me that's not the best you have left.I mean, honestly, is that it?I'm not even going to bother.

I guess you are just goofy....Smash....you got issues man....may I suggest that you give your toaster a Bath?

In all honesty, you appear to have just as many issues as Smash does. You're taking it way too personally. Just let it go.

Who the hell are you?

[Erudis 0]

mattnxtc. in that situation the only hands KJ doesn't want to call the small all-in with are what KK and AA? he can call against any other hand...

[Absolute 0]

Are you doing Heroin or Crack or are you just goofy?Please tell me that's not the best you have left.I mean, honestly, is that it?I'm not even going to bother.

I guess you are just goofy....Smash....you got issues man....may I suggest that you give your toaster a Bath?

thats a weak way to arguesmash and i have gotten in plenty of arguments, and if you cant hold your own by calling him crazy/gay/stupid or asking him to kill himself, then you got issues.Man, telling someone to kill themselves on a message board is straight up retarted.I'm almost tempted to give JDub a heads up on that one.But Im lazy.

[Batch 0]

This topic is bring out the big guns. Any comments from DN, Harman, Helmuth, Arieh, or any of the other pros who have posted here?

Dude, Harry friggin' Demetriou just posted!

This is too big and too important a topic to simply ignore and is obviously of great concern to a large number of people.Perhaps Daniel himself will comment in time as no doubt he was indirectly involved via his association with Hassan Habib (if indeed he had a piece of him this year) but then again maybe he would prefer not to comment at all as anyone commenting on this subject either way appears to be in a no win situation.As for my own comments I will always speak out on subjects like this and actually posted on this subject elsewhere prior to this thread starting here and also on another site.Linen needs to be washed in public be it dirty or otherwise and burying your head in the sand or not having an opinion doesn't help.This is an important issue that needs to be discussed and I for one am saddened that Paul Phillips has taken so much stick over this for expressing an honest opinion openly.

Bottom line is thew guy is fricken cheat and he can get away with it.Just like good old don EVEREST!!!!!!!!!!!! The only thing that can be done is have someone rough the guy up.Or nothing because there is no proof he is a cheat.I love it.This is the best thing for poker.TILT COMES TO LIFE!!!!!!!!!!!!!YESYESYES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!EVEREST WAS BEHIND THE WHOLE THING

[ChkDeezNuts 0]

Are you doing Heroin or Crack or are you just goofy?Please tell me that's not the best you have left.I mean, honestly, is that it?I'm not even going to bother.

I guess you are just goofy....Smash....you got issues man....may I suggest that you give your toaster a Bath?

thats a weak way to arguesmash and i have gotten in plenty of arguments, and if you cant hold your own by calling him crazy/gay/stupid or asking him to kill himself, then you got issues.Man, telling someone to kill themselves on a message board is straight up retarted.I'm almost tempted to give JDub a heads up on that one.But Im lazy.

Read the whole thread genius....I did more than Hold my own.....in fact...I think I exposed Smash's dementia.

[poker_bull 0]

Are you doing Heroin or Crack or are you just goofy?Please tell me that's not the best you have left.I mean, honestly, is that it?I'm not even going to bother.

I guess you are just goofy....Smash....you got issues man....may I suggest that you give your toaster a Bath?

In all honesty, you appear to have just as many issues as Smash does. You're taking it way too personally. Just let it go.

Who the hell are you?

Well I would have thought the name of 'poker_bull' at the top left of my post could have answered that question rather easily.

[Batch 0]

I have a question that concerns "softplaying".When my friends and I go to AC, we try to not play at the same table.  However, if we do, we try to stay out of each others way, since we can take each other's money at home.  If we are in a hand together, and someone else is in it, we play it straight up..may the best man win.  However, if during the course of the hand, the third party mucks, we then check it down as to not take each other's money heads up.  My questions, is this illegal or unethical?   I didn't think it was, but now I am not so sure.  Keep in mind, we only check it down once we are heads up.Thank

This is softplaying

no, they both agreed to stay out of each other's way. that's collusion.

Oh my God.....

IF YOU ARE NOT CHEATING YOU ARE NOT TRYINGQUOTE-JACK ROUSCH

[Absolute 0]

Read the whole thread genius....I did more than Hold my own.....in fact...I think I exposed Smash's dementia.

You are catching on.I don't care who or how you exposed someone.Why in the world would you tell someone to go die on a poker forum?I really want you to think about this one and give me a good answer or apologize.It's just juvenile and you probably know this.

[whippedspoon 0]

A guy posts something on his personal journal, a speculation which is completely valid and very much a SPECULATION. Paul isn't a whistleblower. He's been fighting these backdoor handshake under-the-table behind-your-back deals since he sat down at a poker player.

Umm what backdoor deals does he fight against? He makes those deals. He swapped with Phil Ivey in the WSOP circuit RIO event. You can read all about it in his blog. I'm sure he would have been ethical if he made it to the final table with Phil. I have no doubt about it. However, maybe someone else would have a problem with it. Just like he did with Tuan and Hasan. And maybe they would post in their blog that it looked fishy and give examples. I wonder how he would defend himself then?hmmm

[HarryDemetriou 0]

Sucks that Habib and Le aren't here to defend themselves. I'll give it a shot.VERY true - it would be nice for them to defend themselves but maybe they choose not to for their own reasons.I feel certain that by now they are aware of all that is beong posted on here and elsewhere and in time will provide some kind of response.Then again they may choose to ignore everything.