Tuan Le is being accused of cheating....

[goldenteemaster 0]

I have a question that concerns "softplaying".When my friends and I go to AC, we try to not play at the same table. However, if we do, we try to stay out of each others way, since we can take each other's money at home. If we are in a hand together, and someone else is in it, we play it straight up..may the best man win. However, if during the course of the hand, the third party mucks, we then check it down as to not take each other's money heads up. My questions, is this illegal or unethical? I didn't think it was, but now I am not so sure. Keep in mind, we only check it down once we are heads up.Thank

This is softplaying

Yeah, it's softplaying, but it it cheating? Does this give either of you an advantage over the field? In limit ring games, certainly not. Once everyone else is out of the hand, it makes no difference (to the field) who wins this hand since stack size is unimportant. In NL, a big stack can be wielded against shorter stacks, so dumping to create a chip leader would clearly be cheating, but this is just not betting a hand any further. If this is tourney play, then I would say what you're doing is wrong. In ring games, I dont think it's a problem.

IMO, softplaying in this situation (or any situation really) is cheating. My reasoning is that by doing this, you and your friends have an edge over the rest of the table. I think if you wind up with 3 friends at your table who you won't bet into (and won't bet into you) it allows you to take shots with draws that normally you should be dropping. Think of it from a tournament perspective...if you wound up playing against two people who won't play each other (ie they both raise you but not each other) wouldn't you be pissed? They'd have twice the chance to pick up the pots that you do (maybe not twice but you get the idea right?). Translate that to a ring game and it's no different. If I have one raiser in a ring game my AQo UTG is less playable. If I have multiple raisers it quickly becomes a hand I don't want to play. If you and 2 friends are at a table raising everything, forcing others out, and then not betting at each other, it's wrong. JMO though.

[Absolute 0]

If you read the post or anything about swapping in this situation, you would have stopped typing after a couple seconds.And when has he ever spoken out against cheating in poker?There's probably no one in poker who has spoken out more than Paul. He got banned from the WSOP for speaking his mind on this issue among others.

[Pokerghost2 0]

in my opinion, against a player like tuan le, u never fold KJ in that spot getting a slight overlay. Not unless u are staking him and have a vested interest in him getting at least 2nd. I mean really u have to be thinking about a call against a dewey tomko in that spot let alone tuan le. U definetly call.

[Uppie_ 0]

i have read through the thread and please for give me if i missed anything but i was reading something very simalar on cardplayerthat is the link to the roy cooke article in the issue that is set to be published at the end of next week he talks about this very issue. just found it very interesting with the timing of everything. IMO something has to be done in order to maintain the integrity of the game, not only the in fact but in apperance too. How you do that well i havn't figured that out yet.read this link

[MDXS 0]

Read the whole thread genius....I did more than Hold my own.....in fact...I think I exposed Smash's dementia.

Read the whole thread. Sorry. You only made an ass out of yourself.

[faisal 0]

OK. This has gone on long enough.1) It sounds like HH is softplaying not colluding2) Paul Philips is just mad because he didnt make the final table3)HH or Tuan Lee just made a shit load of money, some of us will never see in our entire lifetime.4)If I'm HH, of course I'm going to take it easy on my investment. After all, isn't poker all about the money.Let the flaming begin once again

[custom36 4]

Sucks that Habib and Le aren't here to defend themselves. I'll give it a shot.VERY true - it would be nice for them to defend themselves but maybe they choose not to for their own reasons.I feel certain that by now they are aware of all that is beong posted on here and elsewhere and in time will provide some kind of response.Then again they may choose to ignore everything.

I'm likely showing my ignorance here, but does either have a blog or website where we'd be likely to see a response?

[whippedspoon 0]

OK. This has gone on long enough.1) It sounds like HH is softplaying not colluding2) Paul Philips is just mad because he didnt make the final table3)HH or Tuan Lee just made a censored load of money, some of us will never see in our entire lifetime.4)If I'm HH, of course I'm going to take it easy on my investment. After all, isn't poker all about the money.Let the flaming begin once again

Paul Phillips didn't enter the WPT championship event because of the birth of his daughter. doh.

[Uppie_ 0]

in regurads to them not here to defend themselves what are they going to say that is really going to defend themselves A) obviously that they will say they didn't cheat and explain away there play as anyone on this site could probably do, so all that them showing up to explain themselves will do is put them in a position to be attacked and worsen there positions further by allowing people to document the statements and proceed to analyze it and shoot millions of wholes in it reguardless of how truthful they are being in it.

[Smasharoo 0]

Read the whole thread genius....I did more than Hold my ownHahahaha.Funny that you're the only one who thinks so.Not only were you wrong, but you couldn't even manage to maintain the moral highground in an argument with ME.Sad, very sad.

[Absolute 0]

Read the whole thread genius....I did more than Hold my ownHahahaha.Funny that you're the only one who thinks so.Not only were you wrong, but you couldn't even manage to maintain the moral highground in an argument with ME.Sad, very sad.

i kind of hope he got banned

[ChkDeezNuts 0]

Read the whole thread genius....I did more than Hold my own.....in fact...I think I exposed Smash's dementia.

Read the whole thread. Sorry. You only made an ass out of yourself.

And who are you? Smash's valet?GTF outta here with your fan boy post.

[ChkDeezNuts 0]

Read the whole thread genius....I did more than Hold my ownHahahaha.Funny that you're the only one who thinks so.Not only were you wrong, but you couldn't even manage to maintain the moral highground in an argument with ME.Sad, very sad.

I was not wrong......you just like to think you are always right...oh mighty Smasharoo...Do you want to be called "God", "jesus" , "Messiah", "Buddha" or what?

[ChkDeezNuts 0]

Read the whole thread genius....I did more than Hold my ownHahahaha.Funny that you're the only one who thinks so.Not only were you wrong, but you couldn't even manage to maintain the moral highground in an argument with ME.Sad, very sad.

i kind of hope he got banned

banned for what?For starting a thread that has gained alot of interest to only have it highjacked by a guy with a fetish for arguing semantics?

[Absolute 0]

no, just for being annoyingbut im the silly one for reading this garbagepeace

[ChkDeezNuts 0]

no, just for being annoyingbut im the silly one for reading this garbagepeace

annoying?and Smash is what? Entertaining?Get serious.OH..and BTW...I agree...you are silly.

[Smasharoo 0]

I was not wrong......you just like to think you are always right...oh mighty Smasharoo... Whatever you say, sport.

[custom36 4]

no, just for being annoyingbut im the silly one for reading this garbagepeace

annoying?

Yes.

and Smash is what? Entertaining?

Yes.

[Silly String 0]

fetish for arguing semantics?

ROFL!! So true.

[Vanillathunder 0]

Think of it from a tournament perspective...if you wound up playing against two people who won't play each other (ie they both raise you but not each other) wouldn't you be censored? They'd have twice the chance to pick up the pots that you do (maybe not twice but you get the idea right?). Translate that to a ring game and it's no different. If I have one raiser in a ring game my AQo UTG is less playable. If I have multiple raisers it quickly becomes a hand I don't want to play. If you and 2 friends are at a table raising everything, forcing others out, and then not betting at each other, it's wrong. JMO though.

What stinks is that if this were a cash game, it's much easier to fix the problem... leave.You're at the behest of the tournament director and/or his computer for a seat change or intervention. This situation in a ring game is much easier to reconcile and you wouldn't worry about staking as it's straight cash.All in all, you can't prove anything. Until the WPT 'cam manages to become clarivoyant you're stuck with the two morons in the booth talking about his great instincts or the most likely situation which is this pot hitting the cutting room floor. It'll be left to the dust of the ages on whether or not this is indeed collusion. Paul got his (IMO valid) concern in and it's got discussion going in several places, which is exactly what he wants. It's not going to be resolved, so get it out of your heads. What it *does* do is bring more suspicion and scrutiny on this situation which would deter something like this from happening again. It won't stop it, but if this gets a LOT of play from the poker press you'll see a lot less of it.Granted I'm out of my depth when it comes to large stakes tournaments and the pros... the machinations of the back room and final table deals are something that will NEVER be exposed as long as "squeaky clean" televised poker and the people making a buck pushing it have something to say about it.The best you can do in this situation is expose the problem and exploit the chip dumping to your advantage. I've done this before in a brick and mortar tournament or two and it's worked well. Play ultra-tight and if you're on the button when they're heads up, make them play against each other. Either the situation exposes itself rather quickly or they stop the softplay. Yeah, it sucks that you're a bit stuck, but two guys can't keep doing that. You miss 1/3 hands (most likely) but when you hit, you'll deliver a punch to the gut. Another tactic that works is to put small raises in to entice their action and drop like a champ when you get play back. when they start getting some honey in the pot, you'll be amazed when they start pushing each other because of your "pot agitation" as I like to call it.I'm sure some people will tell me how wrong I am or the merits of those tactics, but it's worked for me in more than one situation. (although not all that many.) This may not work in the high stakes poker world because the players and money is *much* different but I guarantee you 95% of us will never have to deal with this situation.My $.02.

[SapphireTiger 0]

i am amazed at some of the half assed arguments that are coming out based on incomplete information.All the personal attacks going on are stupid. and some people are getting WAY to excited about all this.wow. i don't think i could handle posting on this site if everyone started jumping on my back over every little word that i wrote and thing that i said.

[elkang 0]

I don't know about banning. But, I feel like I'm watching American Idol auditions.

[Vanillathunder 0]

P.S. Kudos to Paul for exposing this at the WSOP. Does anyone have a link to the story or whatever? That's one hell of a penalty to take for your integrity but it speaks to what sort of a person he is.I'm not swinging on his johnson for it, just saying that's one of the most impressive things you can do for the expense of your beliefs.

[ChkDeezNuts 0]

I was not wrong......you just like to think you are always right...oh mighty Smasharoo... Whatever you say, sport.

Smash...c'mon...you don't know me...But you have ahistory on here that makes me very confident in saying that I KNOW YOU.You misunderstood my post...(you did say you have a learning disability).You then proceded to argue over semantics like a maniac.The fact is that you knew what I meant and you just choose to start an arguement to make yourself feel better...again...it's that fetish of yours....or just insecurity.Hey...at least I got Paul Phillips and more than half of the posters on the thread agreeing with me.Have a nice day Smash. :-)

[Absolute 0]

no, just for being annoyingbut im the silly one for reading this garbagepeace

annoying?and Smash is what? Entertaining?Get serious.OH..and BTW...I agree...you are silly.

i broke my rule i came backyou are kind of like Commodusand im kind of laughing at you scratching your head while you read it.and then im laughing some more when you figure out why that im laughging because I called you Commodous.but seriouslyyou are.