Can We Fold Kings Here

[mln_falcon 0]

3.30 stars rebuy, third hour. Poker StarsNo Limit Holdem TournamentBlinds: t400/t800(Ante: t50)9 playersConverterPre-flop: (9 players) Hero is UTG+1 with [Kh] [Kc] UTG raises to t1600, Hero raises to t4000, MP1 folds, MP2 raises all-in t30910, 5 folds, UTG calls all-in t10765.Hero ..?the third reraise just smelt like aces, and then the utg call scared me as well, but i just see queens and ak here alot as well, whats the verdict?EDIT stack sizesUTG 12415Hero 16725MP2 30960

[Footballguru 0]

if i have M of less than 20 I am getting all in with KK pretty much regardless of what any1 else does...your M here looks around 11 or so to start the hand, not to mention u alrdy put in 1/4 of ur hand...if some1 has AA u still win 20% of the time...I aint foldign sorry

[ChrisRichey 1]

I'm def not good enough to fold this, esp in a $3+R.

[copernicus 0]

Tough one. I doubt its AK though, Id say QQ+, and Id even discount QQ somewhat...but I dont think I can discount QQ enough to fold given UTGs money. Another one of those where the mouse goes back and forth over the buttons.

[GABMAD 0]

3.30 stars rebuy, third hour. Poker StarsNo Limit Holdem TournamentBlinds: t400/t800(Ante: t50)9 playersConverterPre-flop: (9 players) Hero is UTG+1 with [Kh] [Kc] UTG raises to t1600, Hero raises to t4000, MP1 folds, MP2 raises all-in t30910, 5 folds, UTG calls all-in t10765.Hero ..?the third reraise just smelt like aces, and then the utg call scared me as well, but i just see queens and ak here alot as well, whats the verdict?EDIT stack sizesUTG 12415Hero 16725MP2 30960

I don't fold KK preflop at a 3$ tourny. I call and watch the UTG flip over 1010 and the reraiser flip over JJ

[throwemaway 0]

Man this is so close..I've never been one to fold KK preflop nor advocating it here, but all the signs point to being up against AA here..I mean UTG min raises, you repop from the very next position..HUGE sign of strength...Then someone else rejams..UTG calls off his stack then with just a min raise invested..Alright I'm going to say it..I think if I was playing thinking poker, and wasn't tilting at all here, which is rare mind you cause Im just a miserable person...But I think I would muck KK hereSo sick...I just can't see us not finding aces hereAlso, this is the 3rd hour..I can see if it was the beginning of the second hour, but a fair amount of donks have been weeded out by this timeAny reads on the players involved could help to persuade me

[DoinSublime 0]

I don't fold KK preflop at a 3$ tourny. I call and watch the UTG flip over any pair and the reraiser flip over any higher pair

This is what it seems I just see more and more of, once the blinds get going, get a pair and shove, and hope it holds up or hits a set/straight vs the overpair.I am assuming though here, he did have aces? Hence the post? So yes, technically the right play is to fold them, but you're going to see underpairs 95% of the time, especially in the lower buy ins.

[SlackerInc 0]

I wouldn't fold them. Interesting question, though, as it's basically the same issue that inspired my "what hands will you go to war with?" post below (I hadn't yet posted the actual hand, but I had KK, the player who folded claimed to have had AK, and of course the all-in player had AA).

[BeaverStyle 1]

I have only folded KK preflop once, and it was in a cash game (guy overplayed 88 to like a 4-bet, lol) and I don't think I ever have in a tourney. The problem is I only play the lower limit buyin tourneys and sngs so even if all signs point to AA, many times it's AQ+ QQ+... or an even wider range.Basically, if you're playing to win, IMO, you call off your stack here and say gg when JJ spikes a J on the river..... or AA holds up.

[Mercury69 3]

I think you're right that one of these guys has AA, but I don't know if I'm good enough to lay it down. In any case, you're probably nowhere near the bubble and you need to take a chance to get some chips, so calling here is the thing...Just accept when someone flips up the AA.

[Sea Wasp 0]

Folding KK preflop to any action is a clear mistake in a $3 tourny. You will see AA sometimes however with all that money in the pot you clearly have a profitable situation over the long term. You really do see some wierd hands tabled in these events very often. QQ would be an easy fold however with KK you look to the left, look to the right, sign, and then call.

[mln_falcon 0]

Thanks everyone for the responses. Most of you have said that a call here is correct. Before I give results I just wanted to go through my thought process. This was a $3 dollar rebuy event, so noone is extremely shortstacked, and we all started the hand with around an average stack. MP2 has been tight, as have I (not to say I haven't been stealing). I thought at the time, There is just no way that this guy can do this without aces, not after two people in early position have gone raise reraise. But the exact thought I had was, "But I have kings, noone ever folds kings." I called and MP2 turned over aces UTG turned over AK and I didn't hit my one outer. I think everyone who said call has made the correct decision in the long run, but I ignored a read in this situation, and I believe I could've folded, and while I would've been a little annoyed if MP2 had turned over QQ I feel that I'm a good enough player to still make a run with the chips I had. What annoyed me with this hand is the more and more I play the more I'm getting, "my hand is no good fold," and I'm still calling if my hand is relatively strong, or the bet is small enough. I'm not talking about situations where, this guy may be beating me or he may be bluffing so I call, I'm talking, that guy has pocket tens and just hit his set on the river, I can fold top pair here, but I've kept the pot small in positon so its not difficult to call a bet.oh and seawasp, I'm Alistair at PNW as well, nice to see you here.

[cubbybri 0]

I call. Third raise is scary but UTG could still have wide range of hands. MP2 may just be trying to get head's up with TT-QQs. Without any reads you call and since online, I can't think of any reads that will make you fold KK to AA's (as the saying goes..)After reading results Tough Luck. I know that feeling that you are in trouble in this situation, I guess going with instincts is ok but so hard online. I think folding here is weak in most cases and especially with stacks at their current size. You will not see AA as often as you want to think.

[tskillz187 0]

There have to be some ridiculous circumstances to fold KK preflop in a non satellite MTT. This isn't one of them.

[shpaget 0]

$3 rebuy, I don't think for more than 2.3 seconds - instacall.$20 freezeout...I waiver...but call.$50....I fold (I think)

[copernicus 0]

$3 rebuy, I don't think for more than 2.3 seconds - instacall.$20 freezeout...I waiver...but call.$50....I fold (I think)

do you think theres much difference between the third hour of a $3 rebuy and a $20 deep stack tourney?

[Actuary 3]

we have 12k left,... and we think 1/2 a sec about folding KK here..no way.call all day.

[shpaget 0]

do you think theres much difference between the third hour of a $3 rebuy and a $20 deep stack tourney?

do you think theres much difference between the third hour of a $3 rebuy and a $20 deep stack tourney?

There's enough difference to make me think about it....but there's enough guys in there that think AK or JJ are the nuts to stick with KK.Even though you're past the rebuy period there are still two facts that can't be ignored:1. it's still a $3 tourney2. a LOT of people still play like it's a rebuy after rebuys are done, especially the lower buyin in rebuysI personally have never played higher than a $35 rebuy, but even in that range of $1 to $35 there is definitely a change in the percentage of maniacs, both during and after the rebuy period.And then there's a change from rebuy to freezeout...and I have definitely seen a significant difference in play between a $20 rebuy and a $50 freezeout, again both during and after the rebuy period.I know chipstacks have to do with a lot of it...but I find a lot of these guys aren't sophisticated enough to understand that...they play the same range of hands, and the same kind of bets, with an M of 40 or an M of 4.

[Bellerophon 0]

Well, I would probably call in this situation but if you have the feeling that you are beat and something seems fishy, lay it down. There's no shame in folding. Hopefully your good play will pay off and the donkey will be out cuz of his jackal style of play. Sometimes folding the best hand pays off later. Even AK, which you would have 70-30 advantage over can take you out with one Ace. If you don't feel like you have control with KK, then lay it down. Mainly when you have KK you want to be in control and if someone is taking that away from you and you genuinely feel uncomfortable and that you may be beat, fold. Hard to do, but you would still be a live in the tourney and can hopefully make a good play and double up. Secondly, I DON'T CARE WHAT YOU PLAY! $3, $20, $50 - there's no excuse for playing bad poker. The fact that it makes a difference for anyone is dumb. If you don't care about winning or losing a $3 tourney don't enter one. It's that simple.

[Actuary 3]

^^^^"Even AK, which you would have 70-30 advantage over can take you out with one Ace. "yeah, like you're good enoug to ever pass up a 70/30 situationit's not about "feeling" it's about math, which encompasses feelings too

[RISEorFall 0]

^^^^"Even AK, which you would have 70-30 advantage over can take you out with one Ace. "yeah, like you're good enoug to ever pass up a 70/30 situationit's not about "feeling" it's about math, which encompasses feelnings too

your new avatar encompasses feelings in me

[simo_8ball 0]

I DON'T CARE WHAT YOU PLAY! $3, $20, $50 - there's no excuse for playing bad poker. The fact that it makes a difference for anyone is dumb. If you don't care about winning or losing a $3 tourney don't enter one. It's that simple.

No more flipaments or skipaments? No more nutbarring 1c/2cNL?

[ChrisRichey 1]

Well, I would probably call in this situation but if you have the feeling that you are beat and something seems fishy, lay it down. There's no shame in folding. Hopefully your good play will pay off and the donkey will be out cuz of his jackal style of play. Sometimes folding the best hand pays off later. Even AK, which you would have 70-30 advantage over can take you out with one Ace. If you don't feel like you have control with KK, then lay it down. Mainly when you have KK you want to be in control and if someone is taking that away from you and you genuinely feel uncomfortable and that you may be beat, fold. Hard to do, but you would still be a live in the tourney and can hopefully make a good play and double up. Secondly, I DON'T CARE WHAT YOU PLAY! $3, $20, $50 - there's no excuse for playing bad poker. The fact that it makes a difference for anyone is dumb. If you don't care about winning or losing a $3 tourney don't enter one. It's that simple.

Lol, settle down there. First of all, you should NEVER pass up a 70/30. If you would even consider, then you shouldn't be playing poker. And the buy-in doesn't mean that "we" don't care about the mtt, it allows us to get a little better picture of the people we are playing against. Yes there are good low limit players, and very bad high limit players, but it's an important piece of the puzzle. As far as this hand is concerned, in a $3+R, you will see TT/JJ/QQ and AQs+ here a lot of the time, so folding KK is out of the question. Now if it was a during the third hour of a $109+R, I think a better case could certainly be made for folding. I like that you're all full of piss and vinegar, but in the strategy sections we try to treat each other with respect. Try not to be so condescending next time, and welcome!

[tskillz187 0]

I'm mad cuz I'm running very bad and my confidence is wavering. So I'm going to take it out on how bad this post is. I'm going to snip away each part that I disagree with and why now.

There's no shame in folding.

Yes there is, you have KK. It's PF. Your M is 13ish.

Hopefully your good play will pay off and the donkey will be out cuz of his jackal style of play.

Folding is a bad play. You mean hopefully your weak, tight, fold KK pf style of play will hopefully pay off in the long run? Probably not.

Sometimes folding the best hand pays off later. Even AK, which you would have 70-30 advantage over can take you out with one Ace.

First part is debateable, but I agree. Second part is ridiculous. No one wins poker by passing up KK v AK. No one.

If you don't feel like you have control with KK, then lay it down.

If you don't feel like you are in control with KK then stop playing poker.

Mainly when you have KK you want to be in control and if someone is taking that away from you and you genuinely feel uncomfortable and that you may be beat, fold.

No. Mainly when you have KK you want to get all of the chips into the middle. If you genuinely feel uncomfortable doing this stop playing poker."Hard to do, but you would still be a live in the tourney and can hopefully make a good play and double up." You know what else is hard to do? Winning tourneys. Especially when folding KK pf. We could be alive if we folded them though, that's true. We'd be alive a long time if we just posted and folded the rest of the tourney too. Or we could stop when we had like 2 big blinds left and try to win the tourney from there, that would be really hard to do!"Secondly, I DON'T CARE WHAT YOU PLAY! $3, $20, $50 - there's no excuse for playing bad poker. The fact that it makes a difference for anyone is dumb. If you don't care about winning or losing a $3 tourney don't enter one. It's that simple." The system wont let me quote you anymore, but here's another of your gems.Maybe the level of the buyin is of importance because skill level varies? There is no excuse to play bad poker, so stop advocating folding KK to AK if you aren't "feeling comfortable". That felt great. Maybe my cold run will end now.

[tskillz187 0]

I like that you're all full of piss and vinegar, but in the strategy sections we try to treat each other with respect. Try not to be so condescending next time, and welcome!

Oops. Whatever. I'm running bad.