Caesar's Palace- Player Went All In And Ran Away With $ After I Called

[PokerDealer2005 0]

I just left a $2-$5 no limit cash game at Caesar's in Las Vegas. What just happened to me sounds like something out of a movie. A player who had over $2,000 in front of him went all in and I called with $1,255 in front of me. Then the player declared that he hadn't gone all in, took his money, and left. Now to the details.This player had said earlier that his name is J.R. My name is Matt. We were in the poker room at Caesar's Palace in Las Vegas, at table 9 in the middle of the room. I was in the 2 seat, and J.R. was in the 6 seat. FYI Caesar's has all of their cash games going 9 handed now.J.R. had been playing erratically, and had gone all in for over $1,000 several times on the flop with $100 or less in the pot. One time about 25 minutes before this final hand happened, he went all in for $1,015 when there was about $100 in the pot. The flop was ten high with two hearts. Finally the player in seat 3 called him, with a bigger stack. J.R. had T7 for a pair of tens with 7 kicker, which held up. The other times he went all in like this, no one called him.So the hand. I get JJ in the BB, seat 2. J.R. raises it to $20 in seat 6. The button on seat 9 calls, I call, as does a limper in seat 4 or 5. The flop comes Jxx, I think J42 or J45. I check, hoping that J.R. will do the all in move once again. Everyone checks around. The turn brings another small card. I wish I had the exact cards, but I don't remember for sure. I bet 40, the next player folds, and J.R. asks me how many bills I have. $100 bills play on the table in this game, and I had 4 of them behind my stack of chips. I had $655 in red & smaller chips, two black chips, and the four $100 bills. I answered him that I had 4 bills. He then said 'I'll put him all in.' I was so glad to hear this that I acted out of turn, something I normally never do. But I had forgotten the 9 seat was still in the hand, I couldn't see his cards. I said 'I call'. Then the dealer said the action was over here (at the 9 seat), at which point J.R. mucked his hand. The 9 seat then folded as well, and I said 'he said he was all in' and the dealer and several players agreed. J.R. started going on about how he hadn't said that, but the dealer and players at the table backed me up.J.R. then started gathering his money and putting it in his pockets. The floor came over and asked what happened, and J.R. tried to make his case. The table held true, and he became agitated. The floor man put in a call to security. Then J.R. finished putting his money away, and turned to leave. I went around to pursue him, and then the floor man said 'don't, we'll take care of it' and I asked him 'you are going to take care of this?' and he said yes. He had already made a ruling that the all in was valid and that I was owed the money, before J.R. tried to leave.So the floor man and a couple other poker room employees pursued him. I put my faith in them as they asked, and stayed at the table. About 10 minutes later, they returned with J.R., escorted by 4-5 security guards. The debate ensued again over whether he had been all in. J.R. asked the table if they had heard him go all in, he said 'anyone who heard me go all in raise your hand' and 4-5 people at the table raised their hands. It was also clarified that he had more money on the table than I did, and that I had $1,255 when he went all in. He refused to pay.J.R. leaves again, with security letting him walk, but surrounding him. I ask what is going on, and they tell me they will take care of it. A few minutes later, I am told that J.R. has been taken to a holding area.The casino manager shows up and tells me they would do what they could. He said that they could not force him to take money out of his pocket to pay me. I asked if Caesar's would stand good for the wager and collect from him, and he said they would not. He said that Caesar's only deals cards and rents space to players, and that they are not responsible for making sure that bets are paid. He said the only way I would get paid is if the other player voluntarily gives up the money.Caesar's then asks everyone at the table to make a written statement. I and several of the players agreed, and wrote out statements saying what they saw happen, and provided contact information.Then a gaming control agent arrives. He is a state of Nevada police officer, in the gaming control board enforcement division. He reviews the written statements of the players, including mine. Then he calls me over, and tells me that he has enough evidence and he wants to charge J.R. with felony robbery. I asked about getting my money, and he said that even if J.R. gets scared and gives it up tonight, that they would keep it as evidence, and I would get it back waaaaaay later at the end of the court case, months later. He said he wants to charge J.R. regardless of what he agrees to at this point, so that players do not try to do this in the future. If J.R. were allowed to leave just by offering to pay up, then he would have had nothing to lose by trying to walk away. I see this police officer's point, and I agree with it. The downside of that is that I am out $1,255. Who knows if I'll ever get it back through restitution. The only way I'll see the money now is from a check cut by the court, after J.R. pays restitution. And of course, that's only if he's found guilty in court, or does a plea bargain.I asked the manager again about getting my money. I told him, how can you just let a player walk away with his money when he loses? I guarantee if that bet had been at a blackjack table, the casino would have made sure that money was collected. He said they weren't responsible for making sure I was paid, and that they wouldn't pay me, and the only way I was getting paid was to get the money from the other player.How can a poker room be like this? I would never even consider not paying a bet. So if an opponent doesn't share those values, he can just decide not to pay? He's being charged with robbery, but what if he gets off through some technicality? Caesar's is just going to let the guy go all in, declare that the bet is valid, my call is valid, then let the guy take his money off the table and leave? I think they should stand good for the bet, and collect it from him. Several players in the room expressed their dismay, one guy even said he would never come back. Who knows about that, but is it worth $1,255 for their reputation to be tarnished? I don't know how other rooms would deal with this, but I think especially since this is not a lot of money to a casino, that they would pay me the money, the amount they themselves verified was the wager, and collect it from the offender.Does anyone have any advice as to what I can do?Do I have any options?Would any poker room act like this? If not, where is a better place to go?Sorry this was so long, and thanks for reading. I'm sure I left some things out and was a little convoluted. If anyone has questions or advice, please let me know!This is Nevada Gaming Control Board case # 2006-8854-LV.Thanks,Matt

Man, I know how bad this sucks, believe me.....I deal at MGM Grand, and this has happened before, and theres honestly not much you can do. The casino cant force him to pay, it would be considered theft. This happened in our room about half a yr ago.

[MychCumstien 0]

Caesar's is my favorite room to play in, and I had serious doubts about making this post because I don't want to kill their business. I do appreciate what they did do, but I'm not happy with the outcome.

You're a better man than me OP. If Ceasars acted that way towards me, I'd never play there again... ever.

[MychCumstien 0]

Maybe - the OP did give the impression that he acted so quickly that the dealer never had a chance to grab the villain's chips.OP, that really sucks. I hope you get your money back in the end.However, in the larger scheme of things, you really don't want the casino to establish a precedent where they pay you for a wager that the bettor refuses to pay by running away. It will actually encourage exactly this kind of behavior.If the casino has to step in and pay, what do you care if villain gets away or not? You're getting paid anyway. But if they aren't obligated in such a way, you're going to make damn sure that the villain doesn't make it out the front door. The end result is that under a regime where the casino pays, more villains get away because it's easier to get away, thereby further encouraging just that kind of behavior. This increases the casino's total costs of doing business, and guess who those increased costs of doing business are going to be passed onto...?

This is ridiculous. Ceasars is the "host", and as the host they are obligated to see that all wagers are paid. The villain would never make it out the door in a home game without paying, and he shouldn't in a Casino either. In a Casino, citizens are not allowed to perform vigilante justice to extract our bets, we expect the Casino to protect our interests as we are "renting" our space to play (as an earlier poster put it). By Ceasars not covering the bet, I personally feel less safe there, as no one is looking out for my interests (except for me), and I'm not allowed to do anything about it if I am wronged in some way. You said you think that if Ceasars covered the bet it would encourage this type of behavior in the future. I disagree. If Ceasars handled this situation as they should, i.e. cover the bet and deal with J.R directly, and bust his ***, I think it would boost confidence in the establishment and let players know that Ceasars means business. If anything, the fact that the Casino did "nothing" is more likely (not less) to entice this type of behavior in the future. I would also argue that by not covering the bet, Ceasars is likely going to drive patrons away, because patrons will feel their money is not being adequately protected by the establishment, which according to the OP, it's not.

[WowThats 0]

Man, I know how bad this sucks, believe me.....I deal at MGM Grand, and this has happened before, and theres honestly not much you can do. The casino cant force him to pay, it would be considered theft. This happened in our room about half a yr ago.

PokerDeaker2005: Is there anymore information you can share with us for future encounters?

[Dogpatch 2]

Ok, new idea to get the casino to pay up. Tell them if they cover the bet, you'll go play blackjack for a couple hours. Kinda like working off a bonus on-line. (lame attempt at humor, it was funnier in my head) Seriously though, the law was followed... but it would have made Ceasar's look really good if they had covered it. They should take responsibilty, otherwise ya'll can come play at my house and we'll put the boots to anybody that tries to pull this ****.GL getting the money, OP.

[WowThats 0]

You're a better man than me OP. If Caesars acted that way towards me, I'd never play there again... ever.

An estimated 20 million people per year that visit each Casino do you really think Caesars or any Casino cares if poker player(s) ever comes back?

[psujohn 0]

Comparing this to a home game isn't very helpful. In a home game I'd let the guy stand up and walk out. He'd be walking out with chips and leaving his money behind. There'd be NO CHANCE that he'd ever be able to cash those chips in. Nor would anyone else because you don't let people take chips.In my mind this is roughly equivalent to having someone take cash out of your hand while you're standing in line to pay for something. If that happened any place besides a casino you wouldn't expect store security to stop them, you wouldn't expect the store to pay you back, you'd be lucky if somehow the guy was caught and the store employees agreed to testify on your behalf.As for the "stop whining" comment if you revise that say "What happened sucks but give the legal process a chance to work before you get all in a twist" I heartily agree. Yes it sucks. But I have every expectation from what the OP said that he'll see his money eventually and the villain will face far worse consequences than losing $1200.

[Scanner313 0]

I'd expect that it would end up as a plea bargain, which is fine, or he'll get off because the prosecutor will decide there isn't enough evidence. Who knows if a jury could be convinced.

I think a jury in Vegas would be very sympathetic to your situation. Even if he cops a plea, I would expect that you'll get your money back. But I can't be too confident as I've seen the court system act in ridiculous ways when it comes to debts they consider criminal. They don't ever seem to feel the victim factors in much.A good prosecutor would make him pay the money, and fine him for his actions.

[archie 0]

BBFIDTS.Too bad casinos got all pussified. In the old days you'd go into the back room, put his head in a vice, and get your money.Ok maybe not, but it sounded good in my head.Sucks, but at least you have a good story to tell!

Ed Deline would have gotten your money back :-)

[Pokergolf 0]

OP, sorry to hear and read about your story. I hope the situation is made whole and you get your money.I don't know if this info will help or not, but there is a Professor of Law at Whittier in L.A. named Nelson Rose. He is THE guy in the field of gambling law. Google him, all kinds of interesing writing. You might want to send him an email describing your situation. I don't know if he can help, but it is worth a shot. Google Whittier School of Law and find him under faculty. Good luck.

[mtdesmoines 3]

it what way? they didnt do anything accept wash their hands of it.

Several very convincing people from Caesar's should have been in the dude's face, saying, "I know losing the $1200 sucks, but you're buying some SERIOUS trouble for it." Pay up. No, we said pay up. Did you hear us say pay up? ... " and on and on until he produced the cash. No way I'm letting any crowd dissapate until I get the cash. I keep growing that crowd until everyone in Vegas is there. Like someone else said, "that's why we pay the rake."

[mx957 0]

Ed Deline would have gotten your money back :-)

Unless the other guy was one of Sam's whale's....she'll kick Ed's azz anyday.

[mtdesmoines 3]

I don't like the idea of an "all in" button. I know of at least one person whose "all in" button fell off his chip stack in front of his cards and the floor ruled him to be all in and he got knocked out of the WSOP.

LMAO ... really? That sucks. I mean SUCKS. LOL ...

[13CARDS 0]

I don't like the idea of an "all in" button. I know of at least one person whose "all in" button fell off his chip stack in front of his cards and the floor ruled him to be all in and he got knocked out of the WSOP.If someone's all in, they should move their chips in front of their cards.

Unlike the stupid WSOP beer all in buttons, our All-In Buttons are kept in the dealers' tray. Once a player verbally declares "All In" or pushes their chips forward, the dealer will put an All-In button in front of them. If there is a dispute, the All-In button is binding. It also gives some of the less experienced live players something to use as a card protector once they have moved all of their chips toward the middle. If there is only once caller for the all in bettor, we also give them an All-In button so they cannot go back on their call. Again, a bit cheezy, but they seem to be working...and the WPT crew loved them!!!

[Big Blue 0]

Very surprised to read this. 1. Would the casino and/or authorities be able to physically remove chips/cash from a person in ANY situation? How different would it be if I grabbed some $500 chips from another player, or from the house?2. Would it have made a difference if some chips were placed into the pot? I don't think it's necessary to push them all in, but perhaps the casinos will now require some sort of physical movement to signify all-in.3. What does the rake pay for? Is it really a guarentee to be paid off?OP - Sorry to hear it. I'd continue to let as many folks as possible hear about it. Good luck resolving this quickly. I'd speak to an attorney about it.

[Michigan_Madman 0]

I've talked to a lot of people on this now, and they all tell me the same thing. Caesar's could not make him pay, and most every poker room handles this situation the same way. I've heard two other stories of similar incidents at other casinos, and they were handled the same way. In both cases, the players never got the money. I don't know if there were convictions or not.Most of the dealers at Caesar's are good, but the dealer who dealt this hand was a newbie, and it was an oversight on my part not to take extra care with the hand. I just wasn't prepared for this possibility. From now on, I'll never go out of turn. And in a big pot, I'll take my time with any action to make sure all is clear. In addition, if someone has made an all in that I want to call, I'm going to clarify what the action is with the dealer, then ask for the chips and/or cash to be put in the middle before I act. That at least reduces the chance that someone will try this stunt.I think if the dealer had been more forceful, gotten in the guy's face and said "you owe this guy $1255" he might have been pushed into paying. But the dealer was somewhat passive, leaving it to the floor man, who did push the guy hard to pay, but that was after too much time had passed and J.R. had already done too much denying to turn back (in his own mind).I just tried calling the arresting officer to see what's going on, but it turns out his off days are Monday and Tuesday.

[AcesUp46 0]

Unlike the stupid WSOP beer all in buttons, our All-In Buttons are kept in the dealers' tray. Once a player verbally declares "All In" or pushes their chips forward, the dealer will put an All-In button in front of them. If there is a dispute, the All-In button is binding. It also gives some of the less experienced live players something to use as a card protector once they have moved all of their chips toward the middle. If there is only once caller for the all in bettor, we also give them an All-In button so they cannot go back on their call. Again, a bit cheezy, but they seem to be working...and the WPT crew loved them!!!

I think this all-in button system at your casino sounds like a great idea. Clears ambiguities.

[yergan 0]

Regarding Caesars covering the stolen money:If word of this got out, there would be scammers pulling this off in teams constantly. They cant set a precedent like this.

[Michigan_Madman 0]

Regarding Caesars covering the stolen money:If word of this got out, there would be scammers pulling this off in teams constantly. They cant set a precedent like this.

How could they pull it off constantly if the guy who refuses to pay is arrested and prosecuted each time?The house would only expected to make good on the bet if there is overwhelming evidence - in this case, written and video evidence. More than enough to convict. So anyone trying this scam would be short-lived, with a conviction for each successful scam.

[Nikki_N 17]

Ed Deline would have gotten your money back :-)

I was thinking the same thing!

[David_Nicoson 1]

In my mind this is roughly equivalent to having someone take cash out of your hand while you're standing in line to pay for something. If that happened any place besides a casino you wouldn't expect store security to stop them, you wouldn't expect the store to pay you back, you'd be lucky if somehow the guy was caught and the store employees agreed to testify on your behalf.

In my mind it's more like putting your money in the bank. If the bank gets robbed, they don't say, "Sucks to be you. That guy stole your money." The casino has no other service but to adjudicate the flow of money.

[grocery_mony 8]

is there anyway to get this guys full name(i.e. arrest report). if you can we should get some personal info on this guy and go medival on his *** with harassment

[finztotheleft 0]

is there anyway to get this guys full name(i.e. arrest report). if you can we should get some personal info on this guy and go medival on his *** with harassment

I don't remember the name of the thread (but I'm counting on Dane to be able to find it ) about the viliian on here who shafted another poster out of $50 doing a cash trade. An awesome thread resulted in the excommunication of the villian and offers to terrorize him with mass mailings, etc. Who remembers ?

[Shizzmoney 0]

Actuary: don't post results

Man you are a Results Nazi!All kidding aside, I hope everything works out for the OP and this scumbag who tried to rip him off never is allowed at a poker table again. That being said, I wonder what J.R. had?

[ocallagh 0]

IMO Caesars do have a responsibility to the players.How about this analogy.Man walks into Caesars casino, walks into the poker room, walks over to a 2/5 NL game, picks up $1200 chips from one of the players stacks, and then attempts to walk out of the casino... what would happen? Who is responsible for recovering the 1200?Similarly, what if some guy walks up to a blackjack table and takes 500 bucks off someones stack and attempts to leave the casino. Is it the players fault for not protecting his stack while at the blackjack table, or is it the casino's fault for allowing thieves into their casino and not protecting their customers?If it was a hotdog stand and someone had their handbag robbed while waiting for a hotdog I could understand that the hotdog vendor had no responsiblity to protect the customer and her handbag. You dont need a handbag to purchase a hotdog! However, in a casino the customer MUST produce money to take part in the game and because of that, the casino must provide some level of security for the customer.The casino should have to honour the 1200 and they should have to pursue JR themselves. Hope that makes sense, I'm confused and very hungover.....