The Official Dn Isn't Playing Anymore Tournaments Thread

[JadeTiger 0]

The think the PPT is on to something to be honest. Making it a set of standards that must be maintained to even compete. Obviously the PPT isnt perfect and cant apply across the board but you could definitely use some of the ideas that the PPT has introduced to apply to the WSOP and hopefully bring back the prestige. It seems that Harrah's took one step forward this year (with the $50,000 H.O.R.S.E. event) and two steps backwards (with all the foul-ups in organization). ugh... no easy answers but throwing around ideas is what gets things done. Now we just need someone to listen.

[eYank 0]

The think the PPT is on to something to be honest. Making it a set of standards that must be maintained to even compete. Obviously the PPT isnt perfect and cant apply across the board but you could definitely use some of the ideas that the PPT has introduced to apply to the WSOP and hopefully bring back the prestige. It seems that Harrah's took one step forward this year (with the $50,000 H.O.R.S.E. event) and two steps backwards (with all the foul-ups in organization). ugh... no easy answers but throwing around ideas is what gets things done. Now we just need someone to listen.

i think the PPT is a great ideaonly certain ppl can play in it (WPT Champs multiple bracelet winners ect)better then watching jimmy joe schmo on espn bc he won one of 50 NLHE bracelets at the WSOP

[JadeTiger 0]

i think the PPT is a great ideaonly certain ppl can play in it (WPT Champs multiple bracelet winners ect)better then watching jimmy joe schmo on espn bc he won one of 50 NLHE bracelets at the WSOP

I agree...It would actually make players work and compete at the highest level. You could also events that require qualifications in more of a playoff system like PSS. A hybrid of PSS and PPT with some adjustments here and there could make for a great WSOP structure. One that I think poker players would spend all year trying to qualify for. It seems that the TOC is the closest thing the WSOP has to this but then when you throw in Johnny Chan, Phil Hellmuth and Doyle for free it kills the structure, but thats a minor detail that can be dealt with.These types of structures just need to be applied to more of the WSOP events. Your numbers would decrease yes but you would have more prestige. Isnt that the point of something labeled the World Series of Poker? Harrah's, WPT, etc. can set up other tournaments for yearlong fuster-clucks and make sure they still make their money that will draw the sea of donkeys, but lets keep the WSOP the holy grail of poker. Why tarnish something that historical has been the pennicle of the poker world?

[stevedar 0]

Poker can't be compared to other sports in that the "stars" are paying to play not vice versa. The players pay juice to enter which the casino pockets, then sells television rights. This in itself isn't entirely a problem.Back when mp3 first came around and to this day musicians complain about losing record sales since people bootleg their albums. Yet for every lost sale there is the additional exposure which can in many cases be more lucrative.Daniel is a prime example, without a tv audience he wouldn't be a B list celebrity, wouldn't have the same endorsement deals, wouldn't have the column revenue.However, the way espn more or less sets the schedule for the wsop is doing the majority of the damage. Cancel the stud/omaha/lowball events since we don't want to try to teach our audience the rules, make 500 nl holdem events so that we can get 20000 hours of programming. As far as the shootout I believe that has more to do with appeasing the dealers more than anything else. This by no means excuses it but they were likely afraid of having 40 more dealers quit on them with the main event coming up. Obviously harrahs is trying to pinch their pennies way to tightly, sometimes spending a little money to make things run smoothly is in a companie's best interests.

[greatwhite 0]

I'm not going to respond to the stupid flames I got for writing what I wrote. I'm allowed to question whether or not it's worth boycotting. In fact, I don't even care if DN plays or not. However, I was curious why he would give up on getting a bracelet if he cared so much about them before the WSOP started. I'm not there and for all I know I might feel the same way.

[chester97 0]

Not really. Has nascar become better (it's a sport, and it's got a massive influx..) No. It's become scarier and more like a soap opera. Has baseball become better? I guess if you call the roid'ed up players and all the asteriks in the record books "better." Football? Sure.. that's popular.. but now a player doesn't even stay with a team for more than a few years. A five year QB is an incredible thing. Basketball? Fights at courtside, high incidence of gang related incidents happening in the stands.. that's helpful. Hockey? Well, there was a strike a few years back, and despite the owners making some pretty solid money, the players were just hit with a salary cap.. which will give the owners even more money. Even cycling, which is gaining in massive popularity can't go without creating a "Lance Armstrong Doping Scandal"... and then using that to sell products.No sport gets better with an influx of money. It only gets worse and worse, more and more corrupt as the people running the sports try to milk more profitability out of it. I remember a sign held up when Barry Bonds took the field one day: "Babe Ruth did it for Beer and Pretzels."

Are you joking? you think that the players in these sports are not getting treated better with the increased popularity? there are scandals in all sports, popular and not as popular (duke men's lacrosse team for example). all of the examples you gave are ridiculous. these people are being treated unbelievably well, and in the process, making ridiculous amounts of guaranteed money. poker players have to put up their own money and are not getting any outside benefit beyond the payday if they cash or win. the exception is with a guy like dn or lederer or players who can use their image in order to gain outside income. those players are extremely few and far between. meanwhile, harrah's is taking the juice and the liscencing fees and making an absolute killing without any regards for the players.hockey used to have a problem in the earlier part of last century. owners controlled the players, and basically gave them no rights whatsoever. it was the owner's rules or nothing. so the players formed a union, and made their lives and subsequently the lives of all following players better. could their be a poker player's union? probably not. too many players. could there be some sort of agreement between harrah's and other poker tour organizers and the poker playing body as a whole? that is what needs to be addressed. but to say the other sports and their players became worse off because of increased exposure is assinine.

[JadeTiger 0]

Poker can't be compared to other sports in that the "stars" are paying to play not vice versa. The players pay juice to enter which the casino pockets, then sells television rights. This in itself isn't entirely a problem.Back when mp3 first came around and to this day musicians complain about losing record sales since people bootleg their albums. Yet for every lost sale there is the additional exposure which can in many cases be more lucrative.Daniel is a prime example, without a tv audience he wouldn't be a B list celebrity, wouldn't have the same endorsement deals, wouldn't have the column revenue.However, the way espn more or less sets the schedule for the wsop is doing the majority of the damage. Cancel the stud/omaha/lowball events since we don't want to try to teach our audience the rules, make 500 nl holdem events so that we can get 20000 hours of programming. As far as the shootout I believe that has more to do with appeasing the dealers more than anything else. This by no means excuses it but they were likely afraid of having 40 more dealers quit on them with the main event coming up. Obviously harrahs is trying to pinch their pennies way to tightly, sometimes spending a little money to make things run smoothly is in a companie's best interests.

This is not the point. Daniel and the other pros know they would not be as rich if it wasnt for the exposure. Thats never been in question but I can tell you this, without the exposure, they would still be playing poker and still be successful. DN and the others wont complain about the millions they've made because of ESPN and the Travel Channel, but that doesnt give Harrah's the right to half-*** their tournaments. (well I guess in reality they can do whatever they want...BUT if they want these 'B-list' pros to stick around they need to realize that they are making money because of them). Just because Harrahs spends the loot to put on a huge tourney doesnt mean ESPN wants to come out and film it. The reason ESPN wants to come out and film it is because of the big names and the draw that those names have. Thus, it makes sense that you keep the talent happy. If I had to watch a Main Event final table like last year again I might blow my brains out. Matusow was the only thing keeping that thing interesting. 2003 and 2004 were special years as far as drama that helped catapult poker to where it is, but it has nothing to do with the fact that it was on television. ESPN has been covering the WSOP for years and why is it now becoming popular over the last 3 years? Because of pros with personality like Farha and Raymer going up against some unlikely competitors. (moneymaker, david williams-who proved to be more than a flash in the pan, but still, at the time a nobody) All-in-all the success of the players off the felt is contributed to television and promotions, but success of television on the felt is contributed to the players that pay to play. If I pay $45,000 for a new car the effing brakes better work!Same thing for tournaments, if I pay $1500 for an event, it better run smoothely. If it doesnt I better be compensated or at least heard!

[poker_curler 0]

Not really. Has nascar become better (it's a sport, and it's got a massive influx..) No. It's become scarier and more like a soap opera. Has baseball become better? I guess if you call the roid'ed up players and all the asteriks in the record books "better." Football? Sure.. that's popular.. but now a player doesn't even stay with a team for more than a few years. A five year QB is an incredible thing. Basketball? Fights at courtside, high incidence of gang related incidents happening in the stands.. that's helpful. Hockey? Well, there was a strike a few years back, and despite the owners making some pretty solid money, the players were just hit with a salary cap.. which will give the owners even more money. Even cycling, which is gaining in massive popularity can't go without creating a "Lance Armstrong Doping Scandal"... and then using that to sell products.No sport gets better with an influx of money. It only gets worse and worse, more and more corrupt as the people running the sports try to milk more profitability out of it. I remember a sign held up when Barry Bonds took the field one day: "Babe Ruth did it for Beer and Pretzels."Poker as it was is gone. Poker as it is.. ESPN Poker. World Poker Tour Poker. That's what's here now. This sport has evolved into this.. and will evolve into something else in the future.

Do you know anything about athletic administration....Hockey being my background, for the most part, the owners wheren't making ANY money, and often, their hockey teams where bankrupting the investor groups...only 2 hockey markets where making a bit of money, toronto and new york (both losing markets incidently). Hockey was the only sport without a cap, and instituting a cap has helped the economics of the sport.....On the topic of lockouts and strikes....boycotting the events isn't enough. A large group of people needs to setup pickets and protests. If they won't let you in the casino to do it (stupid trespassing laws) then do it in the streets where they're powerless to stop you (unless u americans illegalized protests....which i think you might have). The flatout point of the situation is that a large contigent of big name and small name players is needed to prove that the issue is not just about the money, but about the good of the competitors. Some of you more right winged anti-union types might disagree, but to take the cash out of the multi-nats, the robin hoods of organizations need to unify and use the power of voice to overpower the power of cash.....

[XanMan 0]

Football? Sure.. that's popular.. but now a player doesn't even stay with a team for more than a few years. A five year QB is an incredible thing.

yes 5 year quarterbacks are so unheard of that only 13 out of the 32 #1 quarterbacks last year were at least 5 year veterens of their respective teams... think before you open your mouth

[JadeTiger 0]

Are you joking? you think that the players in these sports are not getting treated better with the increased popularity? there are scandals in all sports, popular and not as popular (duke men's lacrosse team for example). all of the examples you gave are ridiculous. these people are being treated unbelievably well, and in the process, making ridiculous amounts of guaranteed money. poker players have to put up their own money and are not getting any outside benefit beyond the payday if they cash or win. the exception is with a guy like dn or lederer or players who can use their image in order to gain outside income. those players are extremely few and far between. meanwhile, harrah's is taking the juice and the liscencing fees and making an absolute killing without any regards for the players.hockey used to have a problem in the earlier part of last century. owners controlled the players, and basically gave them no rights whatsoever. it was the owner's rules or nothing. so the players formed a union, and made their lives and subsequently the lives of all following players better. could their be a poker player's union? probably not. too many players. could there be some sort of agreement between harrah's and other poker tour organizers and the poker playing body as a whole? that is what needs to be addressed. but to say the other sports and their players became worse off because of increased exposure is assinine.

This is the problem when comparing Poker to other sports. It is a precision game like golf. comparing it to football or basketball is a little absurd. Players are payed for their abilities physically and even groomed for such, from childhood in a lot of cases. Poker is different. Its like comparing apples and oranges. They are both fruits but very different all-together. The similarities you see however, are that a poker player can be financially backed to play an event. Isnt that very similar to paying someone to step onto a court or field and perform? The problem is, because its not a physical sport, you have quite a wider range of people able to play themselves because they arent limited physically. That is what makes poker great but at the same time, not at all like football or basketball.

[stevedar 0]

Did I give an opinion as to what's right or wrong?I'm saying it's double edged, but ultimately it's espn that runs the show.I personally don't think espn should since the players are the draw so they should be kept relatively happy...most pros play because of the history but when the history is neglected so does the only real reason to play.Quit arguing with people that agree with you over choice of wording.

[sholden 0]

yes 5 year quarterbacks are so unheard of that only 13 out of the 32 #1 quarterbacks last year were at least 5 year veterens of their respective teams... think before you open your mouth

You type with your mouth open?

[dapokerbum 0]

I just want to throw this out...but doesn't some of the prestige have to do with making it through a huge field of Donkeys. I think that the only thing that is wrong with this years WSOP is greed by Harrah's. I am not sure of the history but wouldn't it make sense to finish a tourney before the next one started. or at least have a final 27 before the next tourney started. That is one of the big gripes I have always thought about. what are there 47 events this year. with 6 of these events happening during the "Main Event". That to me is absolute crap. basically they just need to settle it back down and have less than 30 events and do those events CORRECTLY. I think after this year they might be able to get their heads out of their asses and realize that it can't be saturated with NLHE. they need to spread the events that the PROS want to play not what your average joe wants to play. anyway i am all for DN and Harry and any other pro that wants to step up and ban this cause it seems that this year is all about harrahs making money and not the players. Too bad because it could have been way better...

[missIdaho 1]

I am really wishing now more than ever that I had been playing poker back before it became so high profile. I would have loved to have seen the WSOP back when the titles and bracelets actually meant you were one of the best players in the world. It's sad what is happening to the WSOP. I'm almost hoping that the popularity of poker will decline and the prestige of these events will return.

[simo_8ball 0]

Wouldn't be surprised if next year they introduce sitngos for WSOP bracelets. $10+1 entry, 6 person tourney. As soon as one fills another starts.

[fromtheashes 0]

DN or anyone else, i know in the past doyle and others had protested the WSOP what was that about? i imagine the situtaion right now is worse than that one.

[JadeTiger 0]

I just want to throw this out...but doesn't some of the prestige have to do with making it through a huge field of Donkeys. I think that the only thing that is wrong with this years WSOP is greed by Harrah's. I am not sure of the history but wouldn't it make sense to finish a tourney before the next one started. or at least have a final 27 before the next tourney started.

I dont think so. I think of course it is an amazing feat to beat that kind of field but you cant honestly say that Aaron Kanter donking into his final table spot is more of an accomplishment than say Raymer making it into the top 30? I think that the prestige has been the level of competitiveness. I think most would tell you that with the large numbers yes the purse is bigger and for that reason most would say welcome to the donkeys, but as far as level or difficulty it seems more of a 'what do i have to dodge?' game. The more skilled players will continue to do well, but the fields make it awfully hard for the most skilled to truly come out on top. Back in the day when the fields were less than 200 you had a higher concentration of skilled players and less dead money. You really had to be on your game to survive and succeed. Seems to me now-a-days guys like Kanter can just make horrible calls and all-ins and just hope the Card Gods bail them out...it doesnt mean he is a better player or more accomplished than say howard lederer. I see no prestige for a guy like Kanter, but for Raymer, Matusow, and the like, you have a combination of great skill, control (though not always there with Matusow) and luck to continue to carry them through all these large fields. That is why I think a smaller field with a level of qualification would make the M.E. more prestigious.

[RayPowers 0]

While I agree the WSOP this year seems to be riddled with problems, I'm not sure I follow along with everyone's logic that this makes the bracelet's less prestigious or "watered down." I think its disrespectful to some amazing players out there to say their bracelets are not as impressive because Harrah's has screwed some things up. These players still had to fight through a large number of pros and huge fields of players. The fact that these players won this year despite the problems that we have seen in the WSOP should, if anything, give the players MORE respect for dealing with such issues and still managing to win.I can fully support the argument that the WSOP has had a lot of problems this year, but I disagree that it makes a bracelet less prestigious or more watered down than in previous years....Just me...Ray

[FourFlusher 0]

A lot of people seem to be laboring under the false impression that Harrah's gives a hairy rats anus about poker, its traditions, its integrity, or its lasting popularity.They don't.They're pimps.That is all.

[JadeTiger 0]

While I agree the WSOP this year seems to be riddled with problems, I'm not sure I follow along with everyone's logic that this makes the bracelet's less prestigious or "watered down." I think its disrespectful to some amazing players out there to say their bracelets are not as impressive because Harrah's has screwed some things up. These players still had to fight through a large number of pros and huge fields of players. The fact that these players won this year despite the problems that we have seen in the WSOP should, if anything, give the players MORE respect for dealing with such issues and still managing to win.I can fully support the argument that the WSOP has had a lot of problems this year, but I disagree that it makes a bracelet less prestigious or more watered down than in previous years....Just me...Ray

to each his own opinion, but if the pros (ie DN) says its less prestigious it probably makes more sense coming from him.

[iveyfan30 0]

While I agree the WSOP this year seems to be riddled with problems, I'm not sure I follow along with everyone's logic that this makes the bracelet's less prestigious or "watered down." I think its disrespectful to some amazing players out there to say their bracelets are not as impressive because Harrah's has screwed some things up. These players still had to fight through a large number of pros and huge fields of players. The fact that these players won this year despite the problems that we have seen in the WSOP should, if anything, give the players MORE respect for dealing with such issues and still managing to win.I can fully support the argument that the WSOP has had a lot of problems this year, but I disagree that it makes a bracelet less prestigious or more watered down than in previous years....Just me...Ray

i respect what you are saying, but to say that a braclet won today is as prestegious as one that was won 4 -5 years ago is imho not true..shrug ..difffrent strokes i guess...i like what daniel is doing, but im afraid it wont lead to much this thing is too big a cash cow for them to care about a handful of upset players...

[dapokerbum 0]

I dont think so. I think of course it is an amazing feat to beat that kind of field but you cant honestly say that Aaron Kanter donking into his final table spot is more of an accomplishment than say Raymer making it into the top 30? I think that the prestige has been the level of competitiveness. I think most would tell you that with the large numbers yes the purse is bigger and for that reason most would say welcome to the donkeys, but as far as level or difficulty it seems more of a 'what do i have to dodge?' game. The more skilled players will continue to do well, but the fields make it awfully hard for the most skilled to truly come out on top. Back in the day when the fields were less than 200 you had a higher concentration of skilled players and less dead money. You really had to be on your game to survive and succeed. Seems to me now-a-days guys like Kanter can just make horrible calls and all-ins and just hope the Card Gods bail them out...it doesnt mean he is a better player or more accomplished than say howard lederer. I see no prestige for a guy like Kanter, but for Raymer, Matusow, and the like, you have a combination of great skill, control (though not always there with Matusow) and luck to continue to carry them through all these large fields. That is why I think a smaller field with a level of qualification would make the M.E. more prestigious.

Honestly I agree with what you are saying but the fact that the Main Event has always been open to all players, if there was a "qualification" then I believe it wouldn't be the same. I do agree that yes it was a way bigger accomplishment for Matusow to navigate the fields than it was for Kanter. What i was bringing up was that if you as a pro player make it through the field of donkeys, then it is awesome. Now if they did change the format then it would play out like the HORSE event where one of the best cash game players took it down and it was through a field of mostly professional players. and that whole tourney would be fun to watch. I personally like the fact that anyone can enter the game. I guess any one can play cash games with the pros given enough money so now that i've talked in circles let's go for it.*NEW TOURNEY ANNOUNCED* *ALL PROS COME FOR THE FREEROLL COMPETITION WITH 10 MILLION DOLLARS BEING PUT UP BY BUDWEISER*When will we see that is the real question

[poker_curler 0]

What would truly send a msg to Harrah's would be if Johnny Chan or Doyle Brunson took the bracelet they won last year (or one they might win this year)....better yet, chip reese, first ever HORSE event winner.....took their bracelet, on live tv (preferably espn), threw it on the ground of the casino, and pissed on it, that would get the world's attention and send a msg to both the evil multi-nat bastards at harrahs, and the ignorant masses of the populous. OR BETTER YET, jumped up on a table, and did on live tv!!!!

[Koonsy08 0]

The WSOP schedule is so terrible this year that the value of these bracelets has been watered down so much the "prestige" just isn't quite there. Aside from that, I'm on the phones right now with the people at Harrah's and if that doesn't go well my next call is Nevada Gaming Commision. I'll also be using my syndicated newspaper column to let the world know how Harrah's is destroying the WSOP.

Sounds to me Daniel like the organizers of the events just wake up on a daily bases and say alright what tourneys are we having today. This issue with the shootout WOW!!! what are they thinking if harrahs can't run the damn tourneys how there suppose to be run they need to hand the WSOP back over to the Horseshoe because these kind of things didn't happen when Binnions was running things.So if they don't refund your buyin you should report them to the gaming commision they are just not making sense.Your also right about the Prestige right now its just a joke they use to mean that you were the best in the world, now I dont know.Another thing that bothers me is how many holdem tourneys there are, I think it was you that said its becoming the World Series of Holdem. They have killed the Stud games and the Razz games come on Harrahs its the World Series of Poker not holdem I'am definitely behind you.If you have to cause a seen I think you should, because its just not us a lot of people are upset. So, go after them Daniel

[poker_curler 0]

Curious, did they change the PLO rebuy, freezeout, rebuy again BACK to freezeout...cuz pokerwire appears to be showing that, and so does a few of the PLO debates i've seen.