Quiz Question #15

[Oblivious 0]

Get the Hell out...there's a good chance you're gonna end up caught in a raising war between player one and player 3, and you don't want to be calling another raise (or two raises) where you still have to hit a draw.You play to scoop, not to split, even against two other people, especially when they're raising each other (unless you have ALREADY hit your low).

Worst advice ever. You will not end up in a raising war between 1 and 3, since they know theyre competing against each other for half the pot on the high side. This hand has enough scoop potential and if you raise AQ could call two cold. Youre way ahead of all your opponents for at least half of a multiway pot. Folding is terrible. Raising charges player 2 to draw against you for a low and charges player one the maximum to beat player 3 if he does indeed have split queens.

[mrdannyg 274]

I thought BigDMcGee left...

i had K3 in the big blind today, small blind limped and I raised because he was weak.he called, flop comes 336. he bets, i raise, he 3-bets and I cap. turn is a 5, he bets. i actually said "pinch pinch" as I raised.sure enough, river 2 and he shows down A4.oh well, i'm almost cool

[jayboogie 0]

This is the worst post I've read all day. Granted, I've only read one post. The last thing you should do in this situation is fold.

Must have quoted the wrong post huh?

[benjammin 0]

Here's my read of the hands. I'm guessing the Q up is raising with a pair, trying to isolate against low hands hoping they miss. A 7 calling out of poistion with a 4 behind them sure sounds like he's got A-2 under there and is trying to trap any other low draws out there who feel like getting frisky. The 9 calling against a Q up raiser has to be a straight draw, but I think it's more likely (given their play on 4th street) that they have a 2-flush, 2-straight pair going. I just can't imagine what other range of hands they would just call with here. After fourth street, my worst-case scenario read is like this:Kc Qs Qc Ac2s As 7c TcTs 9h 9s 9c8c 5s 4c 2cI think you'll learn a few things by calling here. First off, I really don't think you have to worry about Player #2 all that much, the only thing a 10 could improve is if he actually had a middle-straight draw like 9-8-7, but considering I'm putting player 3 on trip 9s, I don't see that, I see him folding. The unfortunate part for you is that you're out of poistion here, and Player 1's play determines a lot here. If Player 1 calls or raises, you have to figure they have a big high hand already, because betting on two 9s has to be setting off some alarms. The great thing about Stud 8 is player 3 can just as easily see that no one else has really improved much, and they might be trying to take the bull by the horns and isolate against you, the most viable low draw (killing your EV) with just a pair of 9s and 8-7 in the hole. I think this is much more likely the scenario rather than trip 9s. Assuming this is Player 1's read, he'd either be in there raising or calling. If this is the situation, with 9 small bets in front of you and the best (and scariest) low draw, I'd try to trap Player 1 for as many bets as I can get, you have the best EV in the hand so why not try and make it a big one instead of a small one. Who knows, maybe you'll hit a cash card like a 3 of clubs on 5th street and scoop it right there. Raising only encourages Player 1 not to get stubborn with his big pair. Folding seems worthless. A lot of people seem to think this is a low-only hand, but you've got a lot of options at making a flush or low straight and the last time I checked, you're playing for both pots. The one caveat: This is in a $1500/$3000 game with people who bet more per hand than I've got in my bank account. Depending on the type of player Player 1 is, his play might be dictated by that. He could easily toss away a big pair there, I would definitely consider it. In short: You have EV, you've got more ways to improve than you do to lose even if everyone is killing your flush cards: Call and win a big one.

[dingas 0]

Raise. If the open nines had trips or 2 pair, he would probably go for the checkraise in this spot to try to get as much money in the pot as possible (after all, he has to expect you to bet after catching a low suited card). His most likely hand here is just a pair of nines and he is hoping that you'll raise to knock out the pair of queens. And you are a favourite against a pair of nines, so you want to raise for value.There's nothing wrong with calling, either. That was my first instinct until I read the other posts and thought about it a bit. Folding would be absurd.

[cgrohman 0]

Stud 8 or better is a split pot game in which you really want to scoop the pot. Obviously, you are not folding so the question is between raising in an attempt to get the pot heads up with Players 1 and 2 or calling and giving them good odds to draw.I think this is a very tough decision, but I lean toward raising here. Given that the 99 lead out, daniel is likely to need to make a straight his his flush to win the high. He also has a decent low draw but has to worry about player 2. The best way to ensure the best chance at scooping th epot is to raise and force the other 2 out and play the pot heads up. By calling, he will let player 2 in, who can conterfeit his low and if he doesn't make his high draw he is left with 0. If player;s 1 and 2 drop, he is a string mathematical favorite for at least half the pot after 7th street.

[etip 0]

I'm sure someone has said this already, but I say raise to force out the 7 draw, and then you are on a free roll to catch some sort of flush or straight to scoop, w/ half guaranteed. Otherwise you face the serious threat of losing the whole pot if the 7 sticks around.

Raise. If the open nines had trips or 2 pair, he would probably go for the checkraise in this spot to try to get as much money in the pot as possible (after all, he has to expect you to bet after catching a low suited card). His most likely hand here is just a pair of nines and he is hoping that you'll raise to knock out the pair of queens. And you are a favourite against a pair of nines, so you want to raise for value.

Very good analysis of player 3's motivation. I didn't even think of that. I agree, raise, and put player 1 to the test (not that it matters - you basically have a lock on the low as long as player 2 folds).

[Rocketwadster 0]

We were never provided the suits of the other cards, which leads me to believe it is a call rather than a raise. However, if we catch a low on the next card, we are betting/raising until the cows come home IMO.

[Red_foot_soldier 0]

What I'm about to say assumes your low draw is still pretty live, since I don't know what other cards are gone. The first thing to realise is that your chances to scoop the pot with your weak low draw are pretty small. Player 3 probably has three nines or two pair, and Player 1 almost certainly has a pair of queens. So you do whatever you have to do to keep in both high hands while eliminating your opposition for low. Its a tough decision between calling and raising. If you call, you make it quite cheap for Player 2 to take off another card to his probable low draw, unless Player 1 raises which I think is unlikely. If you raise, you run the risk of eliminating Player 1 and Player 2, leaving you heads up with a high hand with almost zero scoop chances. You might even have to fold on fifth street if you catch a brick, depending on how big the pot is. If this were a typical online game I would raise, because I know that online, players 1 and 2 are likely to call even two bets in this situation, and I want to get as much money into the pot as possible. I highly doubt there are excellent players in the hand because first of all a queen is raising in a multiway pot, and a nine is calling!

[Marcstar 0]

I skipped all the replys because I don't care what others think. Here you just call. Player two should fold to one bet because he bricked on 4th so you would be drawing to a low with no other lows to fight with and hopefully two highs. If you catch a low you can try to jam as long as you can keep both players in.Some reasons why you would raise are if player two is a donk you might want to raise since he is the only one that looks to be going low and if you think both highs will stay in. Your hand is pretty much a one way hand at this point and its' still a draw so thats why I think calling is the best...although knowing you...you raised. I don't think raising is all that bad either especially if the game is one where people are raising a ton on 4th.Now I'm going to read what the others said.Edit....this wasnt asked but the 8 low starter should have been folded to the raise in the first place since the guy with a 7 called before you. You have an 8 low draw (second best at this point) and no high draw really. If this situation is played 100 times you lose a lot of money playing this dog hand.

[thekid2006 0]

I definitely think a call is in order. You are a big favorite over the only other supposed low draw and you want him to continue putting money in as a dog. When you have a primarily one-way hand such as this you appreciate the extra money put in by worse hands. Calling does not add any deception to your hand as to any good stud player once you call a bet by open nines your hand is pretty much an open book. Contrary to what everyone else says, this hand does have some high potential with a 3-flush and 3-straight and apparently live cards (3s and 6s). With regards to calling a raise with 4-5-8 (3rd st.), it is not that out of line. If you play perfectly after 4th and can realize the danger of catching bad, you aren't really giving that much up. You have a 2 flush and a 3 straight. Plus, the seven that called doesnt have to have 3 pieces to a seven low. Probably does, but not 100%. My two cents.....

[JacKingOff_suit 0]

Easy call but not a raise.1. I don't see others' low potentials. And there aren't many low cards out there on 3rd and 4th street giving hero a good shot.2. I call to give everyone else the odds to chase for the high so I can get a juicy low.3. Hero's hand still has scoopability.All in all, give yourself the odds to chase by keeping others in. This is not a hand you want to reduce players in the pot.This goes against my signature thou.

[RayPowers 0]

I really wish we could see the suits of the other players cards. I want to know how many of my clubs are out there, and if anyone is still hunting for a flush as well. I like the opporunity of a scoop, so if not many clubs are out, but Player 1 or 2 are drawing to a flush, I like the raise to try to price them out of drawing to their flushes and maybe lows.... If noone else looks like they are on the flush draw, and I am down a couple of clubs, I think I'd prefer the call.Ray

[ariston 0]

Automatic raise. You are 4 to a made low with backdoor str8 and flush opportunities. If you let the guy with the 7 stay in he can easily make a better low than you, just because he hit a brick on 4th doesnt mean he will hit another on 5th and you have to make him pay. If you catch any 1of 16 cards on 5th you will be freerolling when the big bets are being put in, if you hit a dream card on 5th you may have a huge freeroll with str8 draws. I spent quite a bit of time with Kirk in Australi in January and sweated you both for a long while in the tag team event - look forward to hooking up with him again in July/august in Vegas when a few of us are coming over for a month or so of the series (basketball challenge kirk??).

[waldo_otto 0]

Tough question, Daniel. My instincts are to call and see what develops. Does your knowledge of your opponents come into play here? Did you consider reraising on 3rd street?

[shpaget 0]

Worst advice ever. You will not end up in a raising war between 1 and 3, since they know theyre competing against each other for half the pot on the high side. This hand has enough scoop potential and if you raise AQ could call two cold. Youre way ahead of all your opponents for at least half of a multiway pot. Folding is terrible. Raising charges player 2 to draw against you for a low and charges player one the maximum to beat player 3 if he does indeed have split queens.

Perhaps - personally, I think the worst advice ever was when the Decca executive told Elvis "go back to driving a truck because you're never gonna be a singer"...or when another Decca executive told The Beatles "guitar groups are on the way out."Luckily I don't work for Decca.Player 1, if you call, may indeed raise, with the express purpose of getting you (or at least player 2) out of the pot...and player 3 may also reraise for the same reason...they'd rather fight each other for a full pot than fight each other AND you for half a pot. They want you out.Remember, no 8 or better hand, no hi/lo split. Calling is the worst option here.If you raise (my second choice) this may reduce the chances of player 1 and 3 coming back at you...the extra bet helps ensure you're not having to call two extra bets (unless you're against AAQQ and 999). The problem is, a raise may chase player 1 and 2, leaving you playing against player 3 for half the pot, and you haven't hit your hand yet.If you raise and player 1 and 3 call...great. And if you roll a K or an 8 on 5th street and player 3 leads out again, now what?Regardless, I'd still like more information...1. you don't know how many people started the hand and what their door cards were2. you don't know if player 3's bet is a small bet or a big bet OR does this rule only apply to 7-card stud? I thought it also applied to hi-lo3. I'm also willing to bet that Player 2 has two of your low outs.You're playing to draw to half the pot, and give what ever weight you want to the two backdoor draws you have - a call may become expensive, and a raise may isolate you...you want neither.Like I said, if you're last to act here it's different...2nd to act, after a bet, with the original raiser behind you, I still like a fold, regardless of the answer.And, that may be why I'm not a millionnaire from stud/8 or better.

[grocery_mony 8]

i would raise. i dont play stud8 very much and havent read anything on it but if i have a good low hand i start to stuff the pot and hope to scoop with a flush or a straight and also make the others pay for there draws

[sloshr 0]

I just call here. You are likely to wind up with half the pot, so therefore want as many people contributing as possible. You don't want to get it heads up with the nines. Better to let them in to chase the high. If the T7 calls even one bet here with a low draw only, he is making a big mistake, so I say let him. He will probably muck anyway unless he has at least a buried pair bigger than 9s.I can't believe 6 people voted for fold. Call on 3rd, catch almost perfect and give up? These people need to stick to holdem. I can understand raising, but folding would never cross my mind.

[blakheart 3]

This is the worst post I've read all day. Granted, I've only read one post. The last thing you should do in this situation is fold.

I assume you meant to quote the post after mine, since you agree with my opinion.

[sm9145 0]

i would raise representing 4 to a flush and a low draw. this will give you a chance to to scoop the pot if the a club falls on a later street.

[brvheart 1,752]

i would raise representing 4 to a flush and a low draw. this will give you a chance to to scoop the pot if the a club falls on a later street.

Did I misread the question? This is not Hi/Lo is it?Anyway... I would raise.

[grocery_mony 8]

You are playing in a stud 8 ring game.

[Oblivious 0]

Why are so many of the "call" proponents assuming that if you raise, players 1 and 2 will fold, and if you call, players 1 and 2 will call? This is a pretty bad assumption, and it seems many of their arguments are based upon it.edited to say:maybe if you raise, suckers 1 and 2 will call... and maybe if you call, suckers 1 and 2 will fold

[compncards 0]

First off Daniel, there is not enough info in regards to suits etc for me to make a total educated opinion, but just by what you gave us, my reasoning is as follows. First on third street Q raised, probably with at least Q's. I figure him right now to only have 2 low cards max at this point. 7 probably has 2 other low cards and there is an outside chance he might raise. The 9's are likely to hold either a set or 2 pair at current so unless the 7 10 or QA raises, you can save a little money on this street. Also your hand right now you only have a 3 flush and a weak low with an 8 low. The fact tht 7 caught a brick on 4th is good for your hand but you will want to proceed with caution. I really would like to know the 5th street cards in this one to proceed further. If 7 catches any low card other than 8 that does not pair him, figure him on a better low draw. Raising is only going to open the door for a reraise and maybe even a cap if QA likes his hand or has A's hidden or even if he catches 2 pair. Now I will say this....if 7 didnt catch a 10 and for instance caught a 6 or 5...i would consider folding. But I would have to know the player better holding the 7.

[iggymcfly 0]

I'm not going to read all the replies, but I think the best move is to raise here. We're probably not up against trip nines, since I don't see an elite player calling a raise from a queen with just split nines in a Stud 8 game. We're probably up against split queens and nines with a three-flush. Also, if we raise everyone's going to assume that in addition to a low draw, we probably have a four-flush, since that's the hand we'd likely value-raise in that spot. That way, if we do hit another club we can bluff out the players going for high who might think their one pair is drawing dead.Finally, if we're looking to get action from the queens, I don't see this making much of a difference. They'll know that we're drawing regardless, and they'll make their decision on whether or not to call based on whether they think the player with the nine really has trips or not.