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Official **wsop Main Event Final Table** Thread


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My guess is he was thinking all in or fold, and to the first 3bet vs him of the night as it says, he chose to fold to find a better situation against a weaker opponent. There were people playing alot worse than saout, pretty much everyone, and he chose not to pick this battle. Not a bad fold at the WSOP Main Event Final Table, Saout's hand was irrelevant...
I don't know that I buy this logic. Without seeing Saout's hand, I still would not think it was the right play. Especially when he later determined that A8 was a must call against Cada's all-in. I understand the stack sizes were different and that effects the analysis, but I really think that neither of those hands were played great. That said, he is the best player in the world, so maybe he had reads or saw something else I am missing.I am stunned that anyone thought that final table was entertaining. I felt it was awful. The play was lousy and it will forever be known for the ridiculous bad beats and not for the solid play. People can keep ragging on Moon, but Cada tried to give away his stack at least three times and got saved (twice with miracles). I am not sure I thought that anyone played great at that table (Schaffel and Shulman played well, but didn't play enough hands to really evaluate -- at least based on what was shown).The fact that Moon lied to his wife is truly astounding. Lying to the table to try to create a tight image is one thing, but why lie to his wife? Did he forget it would be on TV? Is it possible that he really thought he had queens having misread his hand? If so, is laying queens down for 6 million more the worst play in the history of the WSOP?
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I thought the FT was extremely entertaining just for the WTF? nature of a lot of it.

If so, is laying queens down for 6 million more the worst play in the history of the WSOP?
Laying down QQ there would have been unreal bad.
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There were 2 hands Ivey lost it on. The Jacks hand. If he just moved all in he probably wins the pot. Then the A8 hand. I think he still could have folded and had about 10.5 million instead of about 6.5 million after that pot. But you also need to run well like Joe Cada did if you are a short stack, and Ivey didn't run good at the final table. The A8 hand wasn't a bad call, he didn't get lucky there. And the AK vs AQ hand also very unlucky.

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I think everyone posting here about Ivey and the jacks hand is crazy, or just speaking with volumes of hindsight behind them.Saout, along with Shulman, was playing the tightest, and probably strongest final table of any of the players (obv. this information is gleaned only from the televised hands, which makes it marginal at best). But I'm assuming this is true for Saout, because in Ivey's situation here, without any huge flag warranting a 4 bet all in, I'm not putting my tourney life out there with jacks in this spot, esp. vs. a person that has warranted my respect to be holding at worst AQ/TT type range.I dunno, like I say this info is gleaned from TV broadcasting for me, so I could be totally wrong in my thoughts of Sauot's image, which could change this response....but all other things being equal, it's very possible to get away from JJ here after getting 3 bet.

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I think everyone posting here about Ivey and the jacks hand is crazy, or just speaking with volumes of hindsight behind them.Saout, along with Shulman, was playing the tightest, and probably strongest final table of any of the players (obv. this information is gleaned only from the televised hands, which makes it marginal at best). But I'm assuming this is true for Saout, because in Ivey's situation here, without any huge flag warranting a 4 bet all in, I'm not putting my tourney life out there with jacks in this spot, esp. vs. a person that has warranted my respect to be holding at worst AQ/TT type range.I dunno, like I say this info is gleaned from TV broadcasting for me, so I could be totally wrong in my thoughts of Sauot's image, which could change this response....but all other things being equal, it's very possible to get away from JJ here after getting 3 bet.
There were multiple occasions where players commented on how Saout was generally a very tight player. I am sure Ivey saw that other players were playing much looser and thought that he could find a better spot than what he must have thought was a race at beast against Frenchie.I ship with JJ there every time but thats probably why I am not Phil Ivey.Let's be honest.....the two guys who got the luckiest made it to heads up.
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When I was listening to the audio feed I got the impression Saout was fairly active compared to most of the players. I don't think that he was one of the tightest at the table like they said in the broadcast.I think the fold with the jacks is kinda bad but it is a tough spot. Saout should usually show up with a range that does ok against you there.

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i'm happy for everyone involved for the success they had but the play was not good in general. with that being said, i still think they are all better than me because results talk. people could say all they wanted to about how bad i played if i won the thing, lol

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I think everyone posting here about Ivey and the jacks hand is crazy, or just speaking with volumes of hindsight behind them.Saout, along with Shulman, was playing the tightest, and probably strongest final table of any of the players (obv. this information is gleaned only from the televised hands, which makes it marginal at best). But I'm assuming this is true for Saout, because in Ivey's situation here, without any huge flag warranting a 4 bet all in, I'm not putting my tourney life out there with jacks in this spot, esp. vs. a person that has warranted my respect to be holding at worst AQ/TT type range.I dunno, like I say this info is gleaned from TV broadcasting for me, so I could be totally wrong in my thoughts of Sauot's image, which could change this response....but all other things being equal, it's very possible to get away from JJ here after getting 3 bet.
This is trueIvey had encountered no resistance to his opens and was never 3-bet before this so he decided he could find better spots.
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haven't really read this thread in its entirety but there seems to be a Moon backlash. The guy seemed like a humble guy that just wanted to play some cards, got hit in the head by the deck, got action and got a little lucky too. Isn't that just a good day of poker? So he's not a card pro that knows what fold equity is. So what? He wasn't a showboat, a dick or anything. I liked the guy, and I did see some dumb comment about his IQ. So stupid. From the coverage I watched of all the eps. Beglieter was in bad a ton and kept winning, and Cada was a luckbox of all luckboxes at that final table.That's poker. Whatever. Everyone kills to run good, then kills others who do.That's my .02I'll go back to my hole now

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Why can't we just chalk Ivey's Jacks hand up to a great play by Sauot??? He got the best player in the world to lay down a big pair for all his chips on the biggest stage in the world -- nice play, man! The final table was very disappointing for me as I wanted Ivey to win badly. I didn't bet on it or anything, just really wanted Ivey to win. I wonder if Ivey even made any money of this Main Event cash considering all the heavy side action he was trying to get down on himself. I mean, he cashed for like $1.9 million, and rumors were speculated that he was trying to get down over 6 million in side bets. He truly is a sick man. Imagine making the final table, winning close to 2 million bucks, and still being stuck......He shoot dice for a million bucks at a whack. Youtube "Phil Ivey E:60" if you don't believe me.

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haven't really read this thread in its entirety but there seems to be a Moon backlash. The guy seemed like a humble guy that just wanted to play some cards, got hit in the head by the deck, got action and got a little lucky too. Isn't that just a good day of poker? So he's not a card pro that knows what fold equity is. So what? He wasn't a showboat, a dick or anything. I liked the guy, and I did see some dumb comment about his IQ. So stupid. From the coverage I watched of all the eps. Beglieter was in bad a ton and kept winning, and Cada was a luckbox of all luckboxes at that final table.That's poker. Whatever. Everyone kills to run good, then kills others who do.That's my .02I'll go back to my hole now
Totally agree.The only reason I was rooting against Moon was that a friend of mine would have lost a lot of money if he won. I liked Moon and I hope he enjoys his new wealth.At this point in the big scheme of things having a 21 year old American pro win or a 40 something American amateur doesn't really matter.Now if it was a Woman that would be different.
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I just hope Cada learns to breath with his mouth closed for the rest of the year...The fT was a luckboxfest, but a lot of those hands would have been similar results had the player behind called and seen the flop etc.Moon must have decided to use his chip stack to put pressure on others, and his couple of few misteps were horrible, but he paid for those misteps. Unlike Cada who kept getting all his money in way behind, and sucking out.Buchman made the biggest mistake in terms of the results with his AQ hand when he and Sout were so deep 4 handed. I'm sure he has the biggest regrets.Most everyone else busted out by getting their money in good, at least then you're not kicking yourself for making the dumb play.

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haven't really read this thread in its entirety but there seems to be a Moon backlash. The guy seemed like a humble guy that just wanted to play some cards, got hit in the head by the deck, got action and got a little lucky too. Isn't that just a good day of poker? So he's not a card pro that knows what fold equity is. So what? He wasn't a showboat, a dick or anything. I liked the guy, and I did see some dumb comment about his IQ. So stupid. From the coverage I watched of all the eps. Beglieter was in bad a ton and kept winning, and Cada was a luckbox of all luckboxes at that final table.That's poker. Whatever. Everyone kills to run good, then kills others who do.That's my .02I'll go back to my hole now
you should come out more often. because you are absolutely right. He never pretended to be some great player. He was honest throughout that he was just on a lucky ride. Jealousy is an ugly color on his detractors. He admitted that of the 6400 people in the main event at least 6300 were better than him. What more do people want? For him to give pots back that he won on bad beats?
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Well I took a few things away from watching that final table1. Anyone really can win the main event - seem to see more skill watching Sunday Million FT replays. Motivated to hop back in teh ME qualifiers for next year.2. You gotta be a luckbox, but chip and a chair can happen too - remember thinking when Cada was at $2M that "This guy ends up with $136M????"3. Enjoyed watching that guy get busted shortly after he won a hand and yawned to his entourage. Don't know why that was so annoying.Picked a bad time to reread DN's smallball book than watch all the PF shoves with 30 to 40 bb's left.Freaky observation. Was playing in a homegame while watching the table. Flop on home game hand nearly identical in cards and order as the final hand of the ME, at the same time it was playing on TV. Means nothing but still kinda bizarre.

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haven't really read this thread in its entirety but there seems to be a Moon backlash. The guy seemed like a humble guy that just wanted to play some cards, got hit in the head by the deck, got action and got a little lucky too. Isn't that just a good day of poker? So he's not a card pro that knows what fold equity is. So what? He wasn't a showboat, a dick or anything. I liked the guy, and I did see some dumb comment about his IQ. So stupid. From the coverage I watched of all the eps. Beglieter was in bad a ton and kept winning, and Cada was a luckbox of all luckboxes at that final table.That's poker. Whatever. Everyone kills to run good, then kills others who do.That's my .02I'll go back to my hole now
so true. excellent post
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haven't really read this thread in its entirety but there seems to be a Moon backlash. The guy seemed like a humble guy that just wanted to play some cards, got hit in the head by the deck, got action and got a little lucky too. Isn't that just a good day of poker? So he's not a card pro that knows what fold equity is. So what? He wasn't a showboat, a dick or anything. I liked the guy, and I did see some dumb comment about his IQ. So stupid. From the coverage I watched of all the eps. Beglieter was in bad a ton and kept winning, and Cada was a luckbox of all luckboxes at that final table.That's poker. Whatever. Everyone kills to run good, then kills others who do.That's my .02I'll go back to my hole now
I also agree with this. Moon conducted himself very well. Considering the situation that was very difficult. I really have no idea why everyone was rooting for Ivey, then Shulman, then...Cada?Fwiw, the comment about his IQ was mine, and not meant to be insulting. He was overwhelmingly calm in situations where it was illogical to do so. It is hard to say whether he didn't any kind of understanding of the situation, or perfectly understood it, but was able to not be overwhelmed by it. I haven't watched ESPN's final table yet, but my strong opinion in this case it is the latter. I think someone can be both 'simple' and very intelligent at the same time, and he demonstrated a lot of that.Then again...he lied to his wife about the queens?
Now if it was a Woman that would be different.
Very good point, and relevant. Unfortunate we didn't see much from women, and I hope that changes. ESPN showed at least half a dozen hands Peppe was involved in that never would've been shown otherwise. Too bad, because she could've been a great ambassador, given she is already a pro. Margetz going farther could've made a difference, though being an attractive young European women, probably would've been chalked up to luck, and not as encouraging for new women players.
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Margetz going farther could've made a difference, though being an attractive young European women, probably would've been chalked up to luck, and not as encouraging for new women players.
What?
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What?
It is often assumed that success by attractive women is due more to their attractiveness than skill or talent. No?I think KFL winning the ME would do more for encouraging women players than someone like Margetz, who had limited experience.
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It is often assumed that success by attractive women is due more to their attractiveness than skill or talent. No?I think KFL winning the ME would do more for encouraging women players than someone like Margetz, who had limited experience.
I would love to see KFL win the ME. I read somewhere where the consensus among pro's is that KFL is the best woman tournament player out there (as seen in her numerous WPT final tables & overall tourney resume). I think she is a great player.I did though enjoy looking at Margetz.
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I knew it was you that made the IQ comment Danny but I opted not to call out the stupidity, but I understood your point, even as it was made poorly.And I think that Peppe was attractive. Very doable mid 30's woman. And a super solid player. She just took some bad beats as well. To be honest, I don't think a woman winning the ME would have a huge impact, a Moneymaker effect, as it were. Women are just different creatures than us.

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A woman winning ME does nothing to the daily landscape of poker. Equate it to Danica Patrick. Has the F-1 "she" movement started? No. She's a woman in a male dominated sport that has the goods to compete. Kudos to her, but outside of sex appeal, she's not going to be opening up the sport to women everyone as some sort of ambassador. Same with KFL (who is the bomb BTW!!). My buddy's wife is into poker recreationally. That won't change if a "she" wins the ME. My wife is okay watching it, but has no interest to play. That will not change if a "she" wins the ME. It's just not that kind of dynamic.It would pretty much just be a "you can do whatever you put your mind to kind of PSA" to chicks should it ever happen.

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Equate it to Danica Patrick. Has the F-1 "she" movement started? No.
Don't you have to get started in racing at an early age? Therefore, we don't really know if that movement has started yet because it wouldn't manifest itself until years down the road. Plus, she hasn't actually, you know, won anything yet.
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Don't you have to get started in racing at an early age? Therefore, we don't really know if that movement has started yet because it wouldn't manifest itself until years down the road. Plus, she hasn't actually, you know, won anything yet.
Correct on both points. But she is a godaddy girl. So that's something on her resume that is untouchable and will stand the test of time............
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