Rams Reply

[Doop 0]

Whoa.....is this a requirement?

No, it's simply a suggestion.

[Pot Odds RAC 23]

OMG the outside world is absolutely riveted by this huge story! Congress was all set to fully legalize and regulate online poker, but in light of this story has decided to pull back. Did you see the editorial in yesterday's NY Times?Have you noticed that over several hundred posts, not one person from the Ram Camp or the Phil/DN Camp has a conceded a point to the other camp nor said anything to move this "argument" forward? It's just shouting.And yes, I hate myself for continually reading this thread. I guess I don't have much else going on.

Not from the DN nor Ivey camp here, but I will concede that at worst Ram got Hustled. I still think he just sucks at Golf betting. Ivey beat his butt on the course.

[Isaacs 0]

Not from the DN nor Ivey camp here, but I will concede that at worst Ram got Hustled. I still think he just sucks at Golf betting. Ivey beat his butt on the course.

But thats where the main problem lies, the translation of the word Hustle changes from one side of the Atlantic to the other. As i stated earlier in the US it seems to be a term for outwitted, outplayed, outnegotiated etc. You say the word Hustle over here in Europe/UK/Ireland and it pretty much means cheated, conned. So when you say 'i concede he got hustled', we're all in agreement, but our translation of that term differs hugely, IMO Ram got cheated and was naive thereafter.

[Andr4w 0]

But thats where the main problem lies, the translation of the word Hustle changes from one side of the Atlantic to the other. As i stated earlier in the US it seems to be a term for outwitted, outplayed, outnegotiated etc. You say the word Hustle over here in Europe/UK/Ireland and it pretty much means cheated, conned. So when you say 'i concede he got hustled', we're all in agreement, but our translation of that term differs hugely, IMO Ram got cheated and was naive thereafter.

I also think that is the main point. A close second is the fact that lying about your hcp/abilility in golf is seen as serious cheating on this side of the atlantic. Lastly, in europe if you cheated you would not get paid, that opinion does not seem to be the case in the US. Lastly, I can't think of a single person I know who would pay even $100 if they thought they had been cheated/hustled, they would get told what to go and do with themselves.

[irishguy 14]

For all those on the side of Ram at what point does he need to take some accountability here? I'm not even arguing whether or not he was cheated but jesus when the guys own wife says, " why didn't you stop". I think any cheating arguement goes out the window. If I'm flipping a coin with a buddy for $5 a pop and after the fourth or fifth time I'm positive its a fixed coin but yet I double to $10 a flip and play five more and lose them is it really okay for me to refuse to pay? This isn't a difference of culture or whatever its a basic issue of common sense.

[blair rodman 0]

Funny how little the outside world understands the gambler’s world and the gambling mentality? The World Series of Golf is going to be an interesting example. After the last practice round at Primm I was helping the organizers with some of the rules. My intention was to close some of the opportunities for players to take “shots”, ploys that would be unethical in a strict golf setting but would fall within their rules. Tom Meeks, recently retired as the USGA’s lead rules official and head rules guy for the WSOG, replied to one of my suggestions that ‘I don’t think anybody is going to do that! I would hope that players will adhere to the golfer’s code of honor.’ I replied, “This is a gambling tournament. Players are putting up a lot of their own money and will play to win within the rules. If you expect them to adopt the ethics of pro golfers you’re going to be disappointed.” This relates directly o the Ivey-Vaswani incident. The outcry over Phil’s actions, whatever they may have been in reality, demarcates the line between those who understand the ways of the gambler and those who don’t. People who aren’t hardcore gamblers and live by golf’s honor code are aghast at the implications of Phil’s actions, think he cheated and think Ram has every right to not pay. Real gamblers find Ram’s protestations rather amusing. I’m sure somewhere Johnny Moss and Puggy Pearson are having a good chuckle at all of this. He got beat at the most important part of the game, the negotiation, and is crying foul to avoid paying. This is unacceptable to the gambler. Had Phil actually cheated it would be a different story.The problem I have with this is that Vaswani isn’t from the outside world. He’s a professional gambler and has been for a long time. This wasn’t a friendly golf match. It was a high-stakes gambling game. If Ram doesn’t understand the ways of the gambling world by now he needs to find a new profession, regardless of how good a card player he might be. Or, he should stick to cards and stay out of the other gambling arenas. I’m not saying the gamblers world is pretty. There are lots of things that non-gamblers find distasteful, and they have a good case. However, it is what it is and it’s probably not going to change any time soon. I think this incident has opened a lot of eyes. Many of today’s successful poker players are internet-spawned, learned in isolation and have little understanding of the other aspects of the gambling world. The fact that this incident has generated such interest illustrates this. The good news is that a lot of light has been shed and lessons have been learned.

[Rodney21a 1]

Funny how little the outside world understands the gambler’s world and the gambling mentality? The World Series of Golf is going to be an interesting example. After the last practice round at Primm I was helping the organizers with some of the rules. My intention was to close some of the opportunities for players to take “shots”, ploys that would be unethical in a strict golf setting but would fall within their rules. Tom Meeks, recently retired as the USGA’s lead rules official and head rules guy for the WSOG, replied to one of my suggestions that ‘I don’t think anybody is going to do that! I would hope that players will adhere to the golfer’s code of honor.’ I replied, “This is a gambling tournament. Players are putting up a lot of their own money and will play to win within the rules. If you expect them to adopt the ethics of pro golfers you’re going to be disappointed.” This relates directly o the Ivey-Vaswani incident. The outcry over Phil’s actions, whatever they may have been in reality, demarcates the line between those who understand the ways of the gambler and those who don’t. People who aren’t hardcore gamblers and live by golf’s honor code are aghast at the implications of Phil’s actions, think he cheated and think Ram has every right to not pay. Real gamblers find Ram’s protestations rather amusing. I’m sure somewhere Johnny Moss and Puggy Pearson are having a good chuckle at all of this. He got beat at the most important part of the game, the negotiation, and is crying foul to avoid paying. This is unacceptable to the gambler. Had Phil actually cheated it would be a different story.The problem I have with this is that Vaswani isn’t from the outside world. He’s a professional gambler and has been for a long time. This wasn’t a friendly golf match. It was a high-stakes gambling game. If Ram doesn’t understand the ways of the gambling world by now he needs to find a new profession, regardless of how good a card player he might be. Or, he should stick to cards and stay out of the other gambling arenas. I’m not saying the gamblers world is pretty. There are lots of things that non-gamblers find distasteful, and they have a good case. However, it is what it is and it’s probably not going to change any time soon. I think this incident has opened a lot of eyes. Many of today’s successful poker players are internet-spawned, learned in isolation and have little understanding of the other aspects of the gambling world. The fact that this incident has generated such interest illustrates this. The good news is that a lot of light has been shed and lessons have been learned.

EXACTLY!!! It so OBVIOUS. However, people have made up their minds using what ever logic they needed to apply and this isn't going to change minds. I thank you for your post. SEVERAL of us have made the same points over and over again.

[Andr4w 0]

Funny how little the outside world understands the gambler’s world and the gambling mentality? The World Series of Golf is going to be an interesting example. After the last practice round at Primm I was helping the organizers with some of the rules. My intention was to close some of the opportunities for players to take “shots”, ploys that would be unethical in a strict golf setting but would fall within their rules. Tom Meeks, recently retired as the USGA’s lead rules official and head rules guy for the WSOG, replied to one of my suggestions that ‘I don’t think anybody is going to do that! I would hope that players will adhere to the golfer’s code of honor.’ I replied, “This is a gambling tournament. Players are putting up a lot of their own money and will play to win within the rules. If you expect them to adopt the ethics of pro golfers you’re going to be disappointed.” This relates directly o the Ivey-Vaswani incident. The outcry over Phil’s actions, whatever they may have been in reality, demarcates the line between those who understand the ways of the gambler and those who don’t. People who aren’t hardcore gamblers and live by golf’s honor code are aghast at the implications of Phil’s actions, think he cheated and think Ram has every right to not pay. Real gamblers find Ram’s protestations rather amusing. I’m sure somewhere Johnny Moss and Puggy Pearson are having a good chuckle at all of this. He got beat at the most important part of the game, the negotiation, and is crying foul to avoid paying. This is unacceptable to the gambler. Had Phil actually cheated it would be a different story.The problem I have with this is that Vaswani isn’t from the outside world. He’s a professional gambler and has been for a long time. This wasn’t a friendly golf match. It was a high-stakes gambling game. If Ram doesn’t understand the ways of the gambling world by now he needs to find a new profession, regardless of how good a card player he might be. Or, he should stick to cards and stay out of the other gambling arenas. I’m not saying the gamblers world is pretty. There are lots of things that non-gamblers find distasteful, and they have a good case. However, it is what it is and it’s probably not going to change any time soon. I think this incident has opened a lot of eyes. Many of today’s successful poker players are internet-spawned, learned in isolation and have little understanding of the other aspects of the gambling world. The fact that this incident has generated such interest illustrates this. The good news is that a lot of light has been shed and lessons have been learned.

Whilst I am still not going to agree with you, that is a great post and the most coherent argument I have heard from the gamblers/Iveys side.

[Naismith 0]

Interesting post, Blair. I assumed it was a cultural difference and apparently it is...but not in the sense that I had previously thought. As someone who isn't a golfer, I have a hard time seeing how Ram has a ground to stand on. I only understand it from the gambler's perspective. Your post shed a little light on both sides for me and hopefully for everyone.

[navybuttons 15]

i see blair reading this.what are your thoughts with regards to solving this matter specifically, and what will happen if its not solved?

[Marchione 0]

Funny how little the outside world understands the gambler’s world and the gambling mentality? The World Series of Golf is going to be an interesting example. After the last practice round at Primm I was helping the organizers with some of the rules. My intention was to close some of the opportunities for players to take “shots”, ploys that would be unethical in a strict golf setting but would fall within their rules. Tom Meeks, recently retired as the USGA’s lead rules official and head rules guy for the WSOG, replied to one of my suggestions that ‘I don’t think anybody is going to do that! I would hope that players will adhere to the golfer’s code of honor.’ I replied, “This is a gambling tournament. Players are putting up a lot of their own money and will play to win within the rules. If you expect them to adopt the ethics of pro golfers you’re going to be disappointed.” This relates directly o the Ivey-Vaswani incident. The outcry over Phil’s actions, whatever they may have been in reality, demarcates the line between those who understand the ways of the gambler and those who don’t. People who aren’t hardcore gamblers and live by golf’s honor code are aghast at the implications of Phil’s actions, think he cheated and think Ram has every right to not pay. Real gamblers find Ram’s protestations rather amusing. I’m sure somewhere Johnny Moss and Puggy Pearson are having a good chuckle at all of this. He got beat at the most important part of the game, the negotiation, and is crying foul to avoid paying. This is unacceptable to the gambler. Had Phil actually cheated it would be a different story.The problem I have with this is that Vaswani isn’t from the outside world. He’s a professional gambler and has been for a long time. This wasn’t a friendly golf match. It was a high-stakes gambling game. If Ram doesn’t understand the ways of the gambling world by now he needs to find a new profession, regardless of how good a card player he might be. Or, he should stick to cards and stay out of the other gambling arenas. I’m not saying the gamblers world is pretty. There are lots of things that non-gamblers find distasteful, and they have a good case. However, it is what it is and it’s probably not going to change any time soon. I think this incident has opened a lot of eyes. Many of today’s successful poker players are internet-spawned, learned in isolation and have little understanding of the other aspects of the gambling world. The fact that this incident has generated such interest illustrates this. The good news is that a lot of light has been shed and lessons have been learned.

Blair makes some good points here.Ram comes from a family of gamblers (his brother runs one of the biggest sport betting crews next to tony bloom) i also talked to Ram the on the evening of the 13th of Jan when he had lost 900k to phil at crown's capital golf course ~ this will get settled for a smaller sum of money its just a matter of time.

[Andr4w 0]

Interesting post, Blair. I assumed it was a cultural difference and apparently it is...but not in the sense that I had previously thought. As someone who isn't a golfer, I have a hard time seeing how Ram has a ground to stand on. I only understand it from the gambler's perspective. Your post shed a little light on both sides for me and hopefully for everyone.

TBH is think it is a mixture of culture (hustle=cheat to us) and golfer v gambler mentality. I am a poker player/golfer/gambler from the UK, it is a significant hobby of mine by no means profession. Having said that the bit I have the problem with is the dishonestly when setting the shots. As said in a previous post hustling seems acceptable to you guys, but to me whatever word you give it hustling etc it is still cheating in my eyes. With that fact know to me I would not pay.

[Naismith 0]

TBH is think it is a mixture of culture (hustle=cheat to us) and golfer v gambler mentality. I am a poker player/golfer/gambler from the UK, it is a significant hobby of mine by no means profession. Having said that the bit I have the problem with is the dishonestly when setting the shots. As said in a previous post hustling seems acceptable to you guys, but to me whatever word you give it hustling etc it is still cheating in my eyes. With that fact know to me I would not pay.

I used an anology earlier to playing darts with a friend of mine. I have a good idea of his skill level and we negotiate games and sometimes he beats me before the game starts and we have to adjust. I don't consider that cheating. We change the handicap or don't bet anymore.This seems to be a much higher stakes equivalent.EDIT: Again, I want to qualify this by saying I don't play golf nor (obviously) gamble on golf.

[Donkey Destroyer 0]

Whilst I am still not going to agree with you, that is a great post and the most coherent argument I have heard from the gamblers/Iveys side.

Of course you are not going to agree, like most people you are here to argue not to actually have a discussion.

[DCJ001 0]

But thats where the main problem lies, the translation of the word Hustle changes from one side of the Atlantic to the other. As i stated earlier in the US it seems to be a term for outwitted, outplayed, outnegotiated etc. You say the word Hustle over here in Europe/UK/Ireland and it pretty much means cheated, conned. So when you say 'i concede he got hustled', we're all in agreement, but our translation of that term differs hugely, IMO Ram got cheated and was naive thereafter.

I'm trying to stay out of this, but saying that Ram's naiveté played a part in his loss makes the dispute laughable. It’s immoral to let a sucker keep his money. If he's going to give it to someone, he might as well give it to me. Or Ivey in this case.

[joethepro 0]

I feel like a dog chasing my tail here. Hustling is cheating so no cash is that clear? Reading previous posts saying same would have saved you some time posting.

you're masturbating over semantics and not addressing reality, andr4w, is that clear?you can tell me the words "dog shi-t" or "miniature cow balls" is cheating and that wouldn't change anything, except maybe make you a bit cooler.what we call what ivey did matters little.now if you're saying, what seems to sound like a whiney one-track record, misrepresenting yourself to your friends is cheating then you need to grow up and leave your front door once in awhile. yes, in the real word, people exaggerate to benefit themselves. you're right that someone who does that to a friend is scum but, first, it doesn't void anything. second, ivey and ram are friends? really? they share their problems, regularly hang out for beers and wings? helped each other in times of trouble? yah, that sure sounds like the relationship ivey and ram had.there has to be a lot of yes answers before we can even consider ram's story1. did ivey misrepresent his skill?2. are ivey and ram friends?3. is ram's brain the size of a monkey's turd?even after answering yes to all three, which i doubt would happen (notwithstanding the third question), ram should pay at least the first day's losses even though he was thick headed enough to continue playing thereafter.EDIT: what blair is saying is what most have been saying all along except he added the average person/gambler framework, but suddenly andr4w sees that more clearly. sorry, i'll make my sentences more pretty for you next time, so you can understand what i meant when i said he may have hustled, but never cheated.

[Pot Odds RAC 23]

Of course you are not going to agree, like most people you are here to argue not to actually have a discussion.

Irony Alert!!!

[Pot Odds RAC 23]

Funny how little the outside world understands the gambler’s world and the gambling mentality? The World Series of Golf is going to be an interesting example. After the last practice round at Primm I was helping the organizers with some of the rules. My intention was to close some of the opportunities for players to take “shots”, ploys that would be unethical in a strict golf setting but would fall within their rules. Tom Meeks, recently retired as the USGA’s lead rules official and head rules guy for the WSOG, replied to one of my suggestions that ‘I don’t think anybody is going to do that! I would hope that players will adhere to the golfer’s code of honor.’ I replied, “This is a gambling tournament. Players are putting up a lot of their own money and will play to win within the rules. If you expect them to adopt the ethics of pro golfers you’re going to be disappointed.” This relates directly o the Ivey-Vaswani incident. The outcry over Phil’s actions, whatever they may have been in reality, demarcates the line between those who understand the ways of the gambler and those who don’t. People who aren’t hardcore gamblers and live by golf’s honor code are aghast at the implications of Phil’s actions, think he cheated and think Ram has every right to not pay. Real gamblers find Ram’s protestations rather amusing. I’m sure somewhere Johnny Moss and Puggy Pearson are having a good chuckle at all of this. He got beat at the most important part of the game, the negotiation, and is crying foul to avoid paying. This is unacceptable to the gambler. Had Phil actually cheated it would be a different story.The problem I have with this is that Vaswani isn’t from the outside world. He’s a professional gambler and has been for a long time. This wasn’t a friendly golf match. It was a high-stakes gambling game. If Ram doesn’t understand the ways of the gambling world by now he needs to find a new profession, regardless of how good a card player he might be. Or, he should stick to cards and stay out of the other gambling arenas. I’m not saying the gamblers world is pretty. There are lots of things that non-gamblers find distasteful, and they have a good case. However, it is what it is and it’s probably not going to change any time soon. I think this incident has opened a lot of eyes. Many of today’s successful poker players are internet-spawned, learned in isolation and have little understanding of the other aspects of the gambling world. The fact that this incident has generated such interest illustrates this. The good news is that a lot of light has been shed and lessons have been learned.

Well summarized.

[Balloon guy 158]

Funny how little the outside world understands the gambler’s world and the gambling mentality? The World Series of Golf is going to be an interesting example. After the last practice round at Primm I was helping the organizers with some of the rules. My intention was to close some of the opportunities for players to take “shots”, ploys that would be unethical in a strict golf setting but would fall within their rules. Tom Meeks, recently retired as the USGA’s lead rules official and head rules guy for the WSOG, replied to one of my suggestions that ‘I don’t think anybody is going to do that! I would hope that players will adhere to the golfer’s code of honor.’ I replied, “This is a gambling tournament. Players are putting up a lot of their own money and will play to win within the rules. If you expect them to adopt the ethics of pro golfers you’re going to be disappointed.” This relates directly o the Ivey-Vaswani incident. The outcry over Phil’s actions, whatever they may have been in reality, demarcates the line between those who understand the ways of the gambler and those who don’t. People who aren’t hardcore gamblers and live by golf’s honor code are aghast at the implications of Phil’s actions, think he cheated and think Ram has every right to not pay. Real gamblers find Ram’s protestations rather amusing. I’m sure somewhere Johnny Moss and Puggy Pearson are having a good chuckle at all of this. He got beat at the most important part of the game, the negotiation, and is crying foul to avoid paying. This is unacceptable to the gambler. Had Phil actually cheated it would be a different story.The problem I have with this is that Vaswani isn’t from the outside world. He’s a professional gambler and has been for a long time. This wasn’t a friendly golf match. It was a high-stakes gambling game. If Ram doesn’t understand the ways of the gambling world by now he needs to find a new profession, regardless of how good a card player he might be. Or, he should stick to cards and stay out of the other gambling arenas. I’m not saying the gamblers world is pretty. There are lots of things that non-gamblers find distasteful, and they have a good case. However, it is what it is and it’s probably not going to change any time soon. I think this incident has opened a lot of eyes. Many of today’s successful poker players are internet-spawned, learned in isolation and have little understanding of the other aspects of the gambling world. The fact that this incident has generated such interest illustrates this. The good news is that a lot of light has been shed and lessons have been learned.

So DANIEL cheated?????edit: Nevermind I read that wrong

[socalpoker_j 1]

Edit:

[Donkey Destroyer 0]

Irony Alert!!!

Someone needs to look irony up in the dictionary cause you sir don't have a clue.

[Aces88 0]

Im Gonna chip in my 2 cents on this ..umm.Rams official statement really made it clear for me.Phil,Ram starts negotiate for strokes. The previous round they played he gave Phil 6 shots.Ram knows Phil improved so now he want 4 shots from phil.Phil wants to play with the 6 strokes he got last time they beat him for 30 000-300 000.Both parties see it as fair game and agrees on the strokes. We agreed to play $20,000 a hole singles and doubles.By the way Phil constantly talked how by the stakes being raised I was free-rolling. He uses the word free-roll like it’s a big ‘no no’ and that it should never be allowed.I agree totally that if you cant win why should you be able to lose.I get an image off this as asking for 10 draws off the board cause you knows ur an underdog and you also wants to get the option off rasing everytime you dont suck out.After the first day I was losing $200,000. I hadn’t played too well and my opponents had I remember telling Mark that hopefully they wouldn’t play as good the next day. A well evaluated advice.What are people trying to say anyway? That I knew that I was playing over 20 shots out of the handicap and that I still wanted to play for high stakes? That’s just ridiculous!yea it is.I said that it would make sense to get someone to arbitrate it as we couldn’t at this pointWhen we arrived in Monte Carlo and had our meeting to try and resolve this Phil walked in with his very own arbitrators, Barry Greenstein and Martin De Knijff , who were obviously on his side only having heard his side of the story.Ram suggested someone to arbitrate, phil wanted the issue resolved so he arranged it.Ram didnt hear what he wanted to hear from them so he took a little cheap sandwich pitch at the issue they were on phils side.In the meantime I have had to read a lot of bullshit and lies and I would have preferred this to remain a private matter.I know it’s not for me to make a decision on this matter which is why I came up with the idea of arbitrators but whatever happens as far as I am concerned I shouldn’t have to pay a single dollarwell. well.it was rams buddy who stepped public first. The words Ram uses himselfs is like the rest of hendonmob and there fans. Liar-Hustler-total con- and muh more **** been thrown out from that corner.Ram continued to play and raising in hope he would suck out on some holes to break even, when that game system didnt work out the plan was too go public and try trash phil like they have in hopes phil would say something like...ok guys forget about this game let it be in the past. Infact that would resulted in phil agreeing he infact was Lying-hustling-making a total con.They thought the game was fair..they had the best off it previously and hoped they still had it.I dont think Ram and that clan even know anything about being a real PLAYER-being in a zone and performing at a peak.My 2 cents on rams gambling personality is that hes chilled-ignorant-lame.Talks about Honour, being a gentlemen,sportmanship comes from the wrong corner.probaly there egos did write cheques they couldnt pay..they got outplayed in the golf game while themselfes was spending there time plowing up the fairways and destroy the greens with spike marks.I wanna recomend Tiger woods 2005 on any console system (get lots off excercise changing discs on gamecube) i think its more appropriate for these guys to get some off the basics.For the Mob ppl and there fans if you find its a large culture difference id like to recomend some sweat music to tune into its a real good listening also :)1.Nate Dogg-hardest man in town2.Ice cube-go to church3. Snoop dogg-I got dat firelastly im gonna help ram with some career advice: i think ur gambling system aint working anymore...maybe its time put the cards and general gambling on the shelf...you aint got the game obviouslywhat you could do is taking ur club bag and go to ur nearest farmer in england and start startwork on plowing for the potatoe season.. you can choose the club you feel is appropriate.Enjoy.Peace

[Pot Odds RAC 23]

Someone needs to look irony up in the dictionary cause you sir don't have a clue.

LolYou're killing me here!

[DanielNegreanu 141]

This whole thing is so freakin' ridiculous it amazes me. How anyone can back Ram's position I'll just never understand. So many posts claim that Ivey lied... who said Ivey lied??? It was none other than, Ram Vaswani. This guy is totally full of it and calling Ivey a cheater because he lost money to him is completely out of line. I don't believe Ivey lied at all. Again, even if he had, it wouldn't change the fact that he won the money FAIR AND SQUARE. I believe that Ram is either just flat out lying himself, or had too much novacaine in him to remember what happened. Yes, that's right. He came to the golf course from the dentist's office to play the "sucker" Ivey. Goodwin gloated in Poker Player magazine, basically admitting to "hustling" Ivey at golf, and Ram wouldn't let a silly dentist's appointment keep him from playing with "the sucker." These guys are so far out of line it's just scary. It's just laughable. They thought they had a live one, but sorry kids, the live one got better, tough luck! Also, Ivey DID tell them the following even before the round, "I can shoot good sometimes. I had a round recently where I shot a 37 on the front and a 55 on the back." That makes 92. Ivey never broke 90 during their matches!!! Ivey shot what he was supposed to shoot, but his opponents played ridiculously bad and lost. Rather than just pay, they started a whining campaign to try and convince people that they'd been cheated. Total garbage. There is no other side to this story. Ivey has done absolutely nothing wrong and should be paid all of the money. How sick is it that despite losing $230,000 combined to Ram and Marc, Ram wrote in his blog that he doesn't feel as though he should pay a penny! Not even the money he beat Phil out of???? That's crazy, is it not?

[ftxxpower 0]

This whole thing is so freakin' ridiculous it amazes me. How anyone can back Ram's position I'll just never understand. So many posts claim that Ivey lied... who said Ivey lied??? It was none other than, Ram Vaswani. This guy is totally full of it and calling Ivey a cheater because he lost money to him is completely out of line. I don't believe Ivey lied at all. Again, even if he had, it wouldn't change the fact that he won the money FAIR AND SQUARE. I believe that Ram is either just flat out lying himself, or had too much novacaine in him to remember what happened. Yes, that's right. He came to the golf course from the dentist's office to play the "sucker" Ivey. Goodwin gloated in Poker Player magazine, basically admitting to "hustling" Ivey at golf, and Ram wouldn't let a silly dentist's appointment keep him from playing with "the sucker." These guys are so far out of line it's just scary. It's just laughable. They thought they had a live one, but sorry kids, the live one got better, tough luck! Also, Ivey DID tell them the following even before the round, "I can shoot good sometimes. I had a round recently where I shot a 37 on the front and a 55 on the back." That makes 92. Ivey never broke 90 during their matches!!! Ivey shot what he was supposed to shoot, but his opponents played ridiculously bad and lost. Rather than just pay, they started a whining campaign to try and convince people that they'd been cheated. Total garbage. There is no other side to this story. Ivey has done absolutely nothing wrong and should be paid all of the money. How sick is it that despite losing $230,000 combined to Ram and Marc, Ram wrote in his blog that he doesn't feel as though he should pay a penny! Not even the money he beat Phil out of???? That's crazy, is it not?

Yup, I agree they should play Ivey the money Ivey lost to them. Since, I am a solution oriented person, they pay Ivey $230,000 and move on with their lives. This way both parties win. Ivey wins by getting some money owed to him and Marc and Ram win by paying less money. "I don't believe Ivey lied at all. Again, even if he had, it wouldn't change the fact that he won the money FAIR AND SQUARE" -- that's a good line. Isn't lying = cheating = not fair? This is what is so great about the English language. Same words have different meanings to different people.