Folding Kk Omg?

[PMJackson21 0]

I like how I was 100% positive I'd have at least Pat on my side.Nit :-P

LOL, obv.

[yourboygsarida 0]

at the beginning of this thread i woulda said push. after reading everyone's contributions, i can see that this is a situation to def fold. the thing is i think looshle is right in the fact that with a very limited amount of time im not sure if i could comprehend all the info fast enough and make the right decision and can understand the damned if you do, damned if you don't spot.

[stevedar 0]

A 3rd raise would scare away all the hands he wanted action from, and there is a good chance he would only get played back at if someone had AA or the other two kings. By flat calling he gets information from both Serb's actions, and if Serb calls/folds, the flop and looshle's action. Below knows who looshle is, and I'm fairly certain he knew who serb was. Based on that, the above statement regarding chasing away the hands he had beat is even more true.Serb is not a low limit player, so that is all irrelevant. I have a hard time believing people would play QQ or AK like that at any level, but I'll take your word for it. Still, moot point when you take into account serb's playing level.

My point was never that it's not possible that looshle is behind here I just feel that the benefit from a double up lessens the risk of that being an issue. serb being a good player does change thing...I was working under the assumption that he was an unknown..If anything the ranges might have been a bit too tight...serb raised from late position, before he reraised he could have had k-j...he was one off the button.Looshle could have a wide range as he was playing back at a wide range as well. That is my reasoning for perhaps thinking the below was putting on a play. If serb has a marginal hand he dumps it giving below position on looshle for after the flop. Basically he's risking 300 for a chance to take 700 or so off of looshle assuming looshle puts a cont. bet in on the flop.Looshle himself said that 1200 is plenty to play with so why not take a shot at getting an early lead assuming serb/looshle show strength.My overall thinking is that this is a $175 shot at 12k where 2nd pays nothing. I feel as if some of you are looking at this as a miracle final table where everyone came in with the same chips. It's a sitngo...there are only those people you can get chips off of, if one person gets a big chiplead it gets much harder to beat that one person since there aren't 100-1000 other people to get chips off of.edit: serb being a good player does change things...I was working under the assumption that he was an unknownin a final table scenario I fold since losing in 9th is a lot less pay and you could get better shots, but trying to play catchup for fear of one hand in a winner takes all sitandgo doesn't sit well with me

[PMJackson21 0]

My point was never that it's not possible that looshle is behind here I just feel that the benefit from a double up lessens the risk of that being an issue. If anything the ranges might have been a bit too tight...serb raised from late position, before he reraised he could have had k-j...he was one off the button.Looshle could have a wide range as he was playing back at a wide range as well. That is my reasoning for perhaps thinking the below was putting on a play. If serb has a marginal hand he dumps it giving below position on looshle for after the flop. Basically he's risking 300 for a chance to take 700 or so off of looshle assuming looshle puts a cont. bet in on the flop.Looshle himself said that 1200 is plenty to play with so why not take a shot at getting an early lead assuming serb/looshle show strength.My overall thinking is that this is a $175 shot at 12k where 2nd pays nothing. I feel as if some of you are looking at this as a miracle final table where everyone came in with the same chips. It's a sitngo...there are only those people you can get chips off of, if one person gets a big chiplead it gets much harder to beat that one person since there aren't 100-1000 other people to get chips off of.

I don't know how to better define what 'spewing chips' means then flat calling a raise and a re-raise of 15 bbs at the 10/20 level with action still pending behind you. Maybe some people who have a horrible case of FPS (fancy play syndrome), would try a play like that, but it's not something I see Below doing...sober.The fact that it is a sit n go format, albeit a winner take all variation, gives more weight to the argument that Below has a very small range there. Playing like a mad man at the 10/20 level is not the correct way to play a SNG. Good night all.

[zedd2005 0]

OMG. i cannot believe this thread. it is silly to even think to fold kings. i have seen people make plays like that with 23 suited, never mind aa. if you are going to fold kk to a reraise, a simple reraise, then you should not be playing poker.period. and if, IF on the off chance he has aa, then so be it. take the risk.nuff sed.p.s. its funny but while i was writing this, i got kk mid position. two all ins literally before me. i called, they had q5 and aq. that proves it once and for all how stupid some players can be. even if someone has won a wpt title. i mean how many people have you seen who luckbox their way to the final table? jamie gold answers that question.

[RDog 0]

My point was never that it's not possible that looshle is behind here I just feel that the benefit from a double up lessens the risk of that being an issue. serb being a good player does change thing...I was working under the assumption that he was an unknown..If anything the ranges might have been a bit too tight...serb raised from late position, before he reraised he could have had k-j...he was one off the button.Looshle could have a wide range as he was playing back at a wide range as well. That is my reasoning for perhaps thinking the below was putting on a play. If serb has a marginal hand he dumps it giving below position on looshle for after the flop. Basically he's risking 300 for a chance to take 700 or so off of looshle assuming looshle puts a cont. bet in on the flop.Looshle himself said that 1200 is plenty to play with so why not take a shot at getting an early lead assuming serb/looshle show strength.My overall thinking is that this is a $175 shot at 12k where 2nd pays nothing. I feel as if some of you are looking at this as a miracle final table where everyone came in with the same chips. It's a sitngo...there are only those people you can get chips off of, if one person gets a big chiplead it gets much harder to beat that one person since there aren't 100-1000 other people to get chips off of.edit: serb being a good player does change things...I was working under the assumption that he was an unknownin a final table scenario I fold since losing in 9th is a lot less pay and you could get better shots, but trying to play catchup for fear of one hand in a winner takes all sitandgo doesn't sit well with me

Flat calling does not constitute "making a play". I seriously doubt a player playing for a PCA seat is 4 betting as many hands as you are trying to give in Serb's range. So, lets assume for a second that Below is taking a shot at a big pot with 10s9s and Serb had just flat called Loosh's reraise (which I agree with PMJ, I would also have done). Flop comes Q 8 5. Loosh bets, what does Below do? Continue to represent the monster that you are saying he could do with a wide range of hands? So basically, push all his chips in at this point on a got shot? Do you possibly see the problem? What is the point in representing a monster if you don't have one and you can only play it post flop if you actually hit your hand very, very, big? You keep saying that he can take chips off Loosh from a continuation bet so if you play out that scenario, what do you do here if you are Below? And hell with someone still to act behind which is something your analysis keeps leaving out. Once Below calls, Serb has good odds to call in position and take a flop. Representing a monster without one does you absolutely no good in this situation if you don't hit the flop. Which is why in this scenario Below has a monster. He isn't calling 1/5 his stack to make some fancy play after the flop in hopes that one of the other 2, 1) really doesn't have a big hand and 2) if neither do have a big hand, they still didn't flop big. Not happening.

OMG. i cannot believe this thread. it is silly to even think to fold kings. i have seen people make plays like that with 23 suited, never mind aa. if you are going to fold kk to a reraise, a simple reraise, then you should not be playing poker.period. and if, IF on the off chance he has aa, then so be it. take the risk.nuff sed.p.s. its funny but while i was writing this, i got kk mid position. two all ins literally before me. i called, they had q5 and aq. that proves it once and for all how stupid some players can be. even if someone has won a wpt title. i mean how many people have you seen who luckbox their way to the final table? jamie gold answers that question.

Obviously, all this analysis here and you are correct. Serb is playing 23 and Below has 75. All us donks overthinking things. And I am sure your KK hand is so similar to this one.

[nutzbuster 7]

Push and pray.That is all!

[Mercury69 3]

Me = Push and pray

[No_Neck 0]

I agree...Now you know, and knowing is half the battle. :-)

yeah that is the easy part... clicking fold is the hard part.

[XTraCey 0]

OMG. i cannot believe this thread. it is silly to even think to fold kings. i have seen people make plays like that with 23 suited, never mind aa. if you are going to fold kk to a reraise, a simple reraise, then you should not be playing poker.period. and if, IF on the off chance he has aa, then so be it. take the risk.nuff sed.p.s. its funny but while i was writing this, i got kk mid position. two all ins literally before me. i called, they had q5 and aq. that proves it once and for all how stupid some players can be. even if someone has won a wpt title. i mean how many people have you seen who luckbox their way to the final table? jamie gold answers that question.

OMG. I cannot believe ur response post to this. Regardless of how many times you have seen people make this play with 23s etc. does not constitute that everyone is doing this. You are also neglecting to consider the 'big' picture here. Just because you fold KK once doesn't mean you are going to fold it all the time to a reraise. Every situation you get in while playing poker needs to be treated as its very own. Reads play a part as well, obv. It's all situational.In this situation here, it was not a 'chance' that anyone had AA, it was absolutely CERTAIN that one did. You saying that if anyone is going to fold KK to a reraise should not be playing poker, is the most retarded thing I have heard in a long time. When you are in a situation like this one where you are absolutely positive someone is holding AA, just not sure which person is holding it, shoving with KK and taking that 'risk' is the most novice thing you could ever do, especially when you KNOW you're beat.period.If you can't train yourself as a player to make big lay downs when it's the right thing to do, then you shouldn't be playing poker.

[bigkeenanh 0]

No contribution, just have to say thanks to Looshle, very interesting thread.

[revg 0]

You could make a case for folding KK here for sure. BelowAbove is an online poker professional and this is what he does for a living. He is not calling off 1/4 of his stack with nothing. I mean he is feared player and that works to his advantage, but on the same token he knows how people view him and that's what makes this situation scary. If a guy had time to think here I think you could lay this KK down.That being said, as a general rule I don't think you should show these players TOO much respect just because of their reputation either. In this situation it's pretty obvious they both have a big hand. However the reason I say a person can't show them too much respect is because I see people playing with Doyle Brunson on TV and they give him so much respect that they stop playing their own game. They'll have JJ and fold to a raise from Doyle just because he is Doyle and that's just playing scared.I'm not a great player like these two guys, so personally, I just push here and if one of them has AA then too bad for me. I mean, if I am not willing to push with KK, what am I waiting for? To outplay these two guys after the flop, for aces? what? I'll take the chance, if one of them has AA a king can still fall. If I go out, at least I went out with the cowboys instead of waiting so long that I get blinded out or go broke on a bad beat. If you want to win a tournament you will have win a pot after going in with the worst hand at least once, so if KK is the hand that I go in with behind, then whatever it could be worse. Well actually its pretty bad going in with only a 20% chance, but whatever... I would be hoping I was against AK or QQ... eventhough I know one of them has AA. Ya I suck, I couldn't make the laydown.Cheers,Rev

[XTraCey 0]

Obviously, all this analysis here and you are correct. Serb is playing 23 and Below has 75. All us donks overthinking things. And I am sure your KK hand is so similar to this one.

lol - ur the biggest donk of em all aren't u rdogg

[qyayqi 11]

the discussion is about reading bet patterns & players, and as such i have found it quite interesting. i'm working on the betting for information versus just jamming to try to get it all in with the best of it. in the heat of the moment many will, indeed, bite the bullet and push, but this isn't about that response to KK.

[NoSup4U 0]

If you can't train yourself as a player to make big lay downs when it's the right thing to do, then you shouldn't be playing poker.

OMG, dumbest thing ever. Of course he should be playing poker!! ;)Mark

[2bthebest 2]

at the 10/20 level KK is still just 1 pair. But I could probably never fold Kings pre-flop in most situations.Consensus thinks Below pushes if looshle gets away from his hand?

[flyingdonkey 0]

OMG, dumbest thing ever. Of course he should be playing poker!! ;)Mark

Word

[Bizzle 0]

This is a somewhat clear fold. One of the other two has to have AA here.That being said, I don't ever fold, so I play it the way loosh did.

Consensus thinks Below pushes if looshle gets away from his hand?

Considering it probably goes "push-break-your-mouse-call", I would say yes.Don't count out good players feeling gambly though. In a $650 two weeks ago, UTG+1 made it 100, UTG+2 called, UTG+3 made it 480, I shoved for 2900 CO-1, folded back to UTG+3 who called after about 20 seconds of thinking with AKo. And this is at the 10-20 level 10 minutes into a 30 minute level. UTG+3 is a pretty good player too.That being said, the nature of the hand and the fact that there are 3 players involved, not 2, makes it most likely a fold.

[Royal_Tour 0]

I've made several responses in Strat about folding KK at certain times, in certain situations, vs certain players when all the moons align.This is another one of these, It is possible to lay it down, however, anyone playing poker Full time, or at least, the close to full time, has a BR, and has XX amount of games they play in a day.With online poker, its as simple as a click of the mouse to join a new game or tourney or DS, or qualifier.So with the idea of not caring about our buy-in and it being the 5th hand, I can say Yes to a call.However with the info and the players / situation, i can say Yes to a fold.I think there is no wrong answer here.

[stevielarson 0]

Great discussion until some of the morning group get a hold of it.PM mentioned that a better play for Serb may have been to just call rather than defining his hand with the re-re-raise. If he just makes the call then how do you proceed OOP postflop on a low board with no draws? C/F?

[nutzbuster 7]

Great discussion until some of the morning group get a hold of it.PM mentioned that a better play for Serb may have been to just call rather than defining his hand with the re-re-raise. If he just makes the call then how do you proceed OOP postflop on a low board with no draws? C/F?

Love you too man.

[Swift_Psycho 1]

PM mentioned that a better play for Serb may have been to just call rather than defining his hand with the re-re-raise. If he just makes the call then how do you proceed OOP postflop on a low board with no draws? C/F?

This interests me a lot too, and I also am waiting for the forum's tourney elite to chime in.

[rochoc 0]

Even though the results of this hand did constitute a fold I think there is still something to be said for making a case for a push. The main reason this seems like a spot where this move may be warranted deals with serb. Assuming serb is Nenad and thus a WPT champ he obv. has a relatively high poker IQ. This fact combined with the fact he prob has a pretty good idea of the particular styles looshle and especially to a larger extent below have makes it seem more plausible that Nenad may be attempting a squeeze of some sort. This type of play this earyly obv has a small chance of working, but at this particular table with these particular opponents he may have felt that with a move like this he could accomplish some very beneficial goals. Firstly he obv. will become a chip leader at the table allowing him to take more of a bullying role, and a role that I am sure he is more comfortable with. Secondly he is not allowing either of the two laggy players at the table to gather these chips and is preventing himself from thusly having to react to those players aggression. I think the arguement can be made that if the move works his ev at this table increases significantly, and if it fails then it is not as dramatic a drop in his ev due to the fact that if he hadnt attempted it he would have still been in a position where he would be reacting to aggression anyway. Just my thoughts and i know im a noob so please dont flame

[Royal_Tour 0]

Great discussion until some of the morning group get a hold of it.PM mentioned that a better play for Serb may have been to just call rather than defining his hand with the re-re-raise. If he just makes the call then how do you proceed OOP postflop on a low board with no draws? C/F?

This interests me a lot too, and I also am waiting for the forum's tourney elite to chime in.

i take offence to the morning comment.to answer your question, He loses money. Its simple, the idea of Serb just calling is for serb to win more post flop.The idea of folding KK comes from us gaining that re-re-raise information, without it, getting away from this hand would almost be N/A unless the flop was A,Q,Q or 3 same suited. etc...

[revg 0]

K enough discussion now... We are flogging a dead horse.What exactly happened loosh?Cheers,Rev