Skeleton Jelly 2 Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 you have to be committing a felony when the death occurs for it to be murder, though. if someone dies when you're jaywalking, it's not felony murder.So if you're robbing a bank and the guard tries to stop you but ends up shooting a customer, you're still going to get charged with murder? Link to post Share on other sites
Roll the Bones 74 Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 So if you're robbing a bank and the guard tries to stop you but ends up shooting a customer, you're still going to get charged with murder?yep. Wouldn't have happened if he wasn't robbing the bank. Link to post Share on other sites
Skeleton Jelly 2 Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 yep. Wouldn't have happened if he wasn't robbing the bank.That sounds crazy to me.Does this only extend to murder?If you're robbing a bank and Shake uses the distraction to rape someone, are you going to get charged with rape?How wide of a net does this bank robbery cast? Link to post Share on other sites
speedz99 145 Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 That sounds crazy to me.Really? It's a direct result of your crime which has put people in danger. If you're robbing a bank and Shake uses the distraction to rape someone, are you going to get charged with rape?If it only happened because of the robbery...I don't know, maybe. I would hope so, as it's partially the bank robber's fault. At the very least he should be held responsible in a civil court. Link to post Share on other sites
Skeleton Jelly 2 Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 Really? It's a direct result of your crime which has put people in danger. If it only happened because of the robbery...I don't know, maybe. I would hope so, as it's partially the bank robber's fault. At the very least he should be held responsible in a civil court.I'm interested in the nuances of this. If you're robbing a bank Out of Sight style (nothing but your Clooney charm) and a guard gets a whiff of this and pulls out a machine gun and sprays bullets killing seven, I wouldn't think it fair for the bank robber to get seven murder charges. When does the burden shift from the bank robber to the guy wildly overreacting? Link to post Share on other sites
JubilantLankyLad 1,957 Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 I'm interested in the nuances of this. If you're robbing a bank Out of Sight style (nothing but your Clooney charm) and a guard gets a whiff of this and pulls out a machine gun and sprays bullets killing seven, I wouldn't think it fair for the bank robber to get seven murder charges. When does the burden shift from the bank robber to the guy wildly overreacting?When the bank robber doesn't rob the bank.edit: (real edit): I don't think the guard in your scenario is exempt from possibly being charged with negligent homicide or worse, to be clear. But the bank robber is on the hook for first degree murder. Link to post Share on other sites
Roll the Bones 74 Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 A few years back some 17 year old kid was being chased by a cop for being out late and the kid ran across the bridge from Kentucky to Ohio and the cop chased him. The cop decided to jump the rail from the road to the sidewalk portion of the bridge. He didn't realize there was a gap between them and went straight down, like something from a Pink Panther movie and drowned. The kid got charged and convicted of involuntary manslaughter (or something like that). Link to post Share on other sites
Skeleton Jelly 2 Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 I think you guys are talking about constructive manslaughter, not murder.Constructive manslaughter is also referred to as ‘unlawful act’ manslaughter. It is based on the doctrine of constructive malice, whereby the malicious intent inherent in the commission of a crime is considered to apply to the consequences of that crime. It occurs when someone kills, without intent, in the course of committing an unlawful act. The malice involved in the crime is transferred to the killing, resulting in a charge of manslaughter. Link to post Share on other sites
speedz99 145 Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 edit: (real edit): I don't think the guard in your scenario is exempt from possibly being charged with negligent homicide or worse, to be clear. But the bank robber is on the hook for first degree murder.I think this is accurate. Link to post Share on other sites
JubilantLankyLad 1,957 Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 I think you guys are talking about constructive manslaughter, not murder.Constructive manslaughter is also referred to as ‘unlawful act’ manslaughter. It is based on the doctrine of constructive malice, whereby the malicious intent inherent in the commission of a crime is considered to apply to the consequences of that crime. It occurs when someone kills, without intent, in the course of committing an unlawful act. The malice involved in the crime is transferred to the killing, resulting in a charge of manslaughter. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felony_murder_ruleSecond, it makes any participant in such a felony criminally liable for any deaths that occur during or in furtherance of that felony. Link to post Share on other sites
Skeleton Jelly 2 Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felony_murder_ruleSecond, it makes any participant in such a felony criminally liable for any deaths that occur during or in furtherance of that felony. Hmm.There are two schools of thought concerning whose actions can cause the defendant to be guilty of felony murder. Jurisdictions that hold to the agency theory admit only deaths caused by the agents of the crime. Jurisdictions that use the proximate cause theory include any death, even if caused by a bystander or the police, provided that it meets one of several proximate cause tests to determine if the chain of events between the felony and the death was short enough to have legally caused the death.I don't know what the following means:The Model Penal Code does not include the felony murder rule, but allows the commission of a felony to raise a presumption of extreme indifference to the value of human life.[7][8] Thus, the felony murder rule is effectively used as a rule of evidence. Link to post Share on other sites
loogie 115 Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 Constructive manslaughter doesn't seem like the right term. Shouldn't that be for killing someone like Spencer Pratt or some of the Westboro church members? Link to post Share on other sites
JubilantLankyLad 1,957 Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 Hmm.There are two schools of thought concerning whose actions can cause the defendant to be guilty of felony murder. Jurisdictions that hold to the agency theory admit only deaths caused by the agents of the crime. Jurisdictions that use the proximate cause theory include any death, even if caused by a bystander or the police, provided that it meets one of several proximate cause tests to determine if the chain of events between the felony and the death was short enough to have legally caused the death.I don't know what the following means:The Model Penal Code does not include the felony murder rule, but allows the commission of a felony to raise a presumption of extreme indifference to the value of human life.[7][8] Thus, the felony murder rule is effectively used as a rule of evidence. right, so if the guard is preoccupied thinking about the clooney-esque robbing of his bank last week while walking to the park and steps off the curb in front of a bus which just swerves and misses him but hits a Korean bodega, sending produce flying everywhere, including a peanut which lands in the mouth of someone who has a peanut allergy and dies of anaphylactic shock, the robbery is probably not going to be considered a proximate cause.also the MPC isn't law. it's a guideline for making laws. Link to post Share on other sites
speedz99 145 Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 also the MPC isn't law. it's a guideline for making laws.Maybe in CANADA!OHHHHH SHIT! [jumping around in a circle with hand over mouth] Link to post Share on other sites
JubilantLankyLad 1,957 Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 Maybe in CANADA!OHHHHH SHIT! [jumping around in a circle with hand over mouth]DarrylBuck Link to post Share on other sites
loogie 115 Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 @Beansnicewater Beans IcewaterAccused of being inhebried at excaliber twenty one table. so i am big deal the cards! heading to the palms next Link to post Share on other sites
SuitedAces21 2,722 Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 felony murder rule was the essay on my crim law final. guys were robbing a 7-11 and their get away driver was drunk, but didnt know the other guys were robbing the 7-11. his drunk driving killed a pedestrian during the get away. drunk guy gets vehhicular manslaughter (no intent to kill, no knowledge of felony in progress), other two robbers get felony murder. at least that's how i answered. Link to post Share on other sites
JubilantLankyLad 1,957 Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 felony murder rule was the essay on my crim law final. guys were robbing a 7-11 and their get away driver was drunk, but didnt know the other guys were robbing the 7-11. his drunk driving killed a pedestrian during the get away. drunk guy gets vehhicular manslaughter (no intent to kill, no knowledge of felony in progress), other two robbers get felony murder. at least that's how i answered.but what did the bartender get? Link to post Share on other sites
hank213 1,823 Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 Constructive manslaughter doesn't seem like the right term. Shouldn't that be for killing someone like Spencer Pratt or some of the Westboro church members?No Ricky. Link to post Share on other sites
JubilantLankyLad 1,957 Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 Friends of yours, loogie? I only ask because I don't see Ricky Gervais in here anywhere. Link to post Share on other sites
Poppy_Hillis 11 Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 Does this only extend to murder?If you're robbing a bank and Shake uses the distraction to rape someone, are you going to get charged with rape?How wide of a net does this bank robbery cast?Yes, it only applies when there is a death involved. However, the robber could get charged with accessory to rape, which is the same penalty as rape.If that were the case I think I'd move to The Town and hang out in banks all day. Link to post Share on other sites
ShakeZuma 585 Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 If you're robbing a bank and Shake uses the distraction to rape someone, are you going to get charged with rape?this has hilarious sitcom written all over it!hey randy, are you around? I've got a question about buying a car and you may be able to help. Link to post Share on other sites
loogie 115 Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 Friends of yours, loogie? I only ask because I don't see Ricky Gervais in here anywhere. Those guys are great. But they're not my friends. You guys are my only friends. Link to post Share on other sites
loogie 115 Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 I've been drinking a bottle of wine a night, which is less than my doctor prescribed. He's not really a doctor, but if you call anyone doctor long enough, you start to believe it. I've also been playing $55/9 player sngs. That's poker for you people with lives. $55/game is waaay out of my prescribed bankroll. But since I'm under my prescribed wine intake, I figure it evens out. I've played 5 of them so far. Quite a lot! I've placed 4th, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, and 3rd. And the 4th was an awful bad beat. Proving that gods suffer hardship like the rest of the plebes.I've also been peeing a lot lately. It could be from an enlarged prostate, but I've been doing regular checks. I'm just not sure what I'm looking for. Link to post Share on other sites
speedz99 145 Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 felony murder rule was the essay on my crim law final. guys were robbing a 7-11 and their get away driver was drunk, but didnt know the other guys were robbing the 7-11. his drunk driving killed a pedestrian during the get away. drunk guy gets vehhicular manslaughter (no intent to kill, no knowledge of felony in progress), other two robbers get felony murder. at least that's how i answered.Well were you right? Link to post Share on other sites
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