fishy phil hellmuth

[looshle 6]

Phil isn't one of the top 3 tourney players. He's not even close, he's too tight. Everyone knows it now, he won all his bracelets before he put his book out and went into detail in how he plays. He folds rediculously strong hands because he doesnt want to be involved in big pots unless he has the nuts.Just go all in and take the pot from him. He won't call you, he's a pussy.

I disagree....but whatever. Everyone is determined to paint hellmuth as a bad player.He has more hold-em bracelets than any person on the planet. But really who thinks WSOp bracelets mean anything. way overrated.

When he first started playing big, yes, his style worked extremely well but the gigs up. He's not winning another holdem bracelet unless he drastically changes his style.

[CaneBrain 95]

Phil isn't one of the top 3 tourney players. He's not even close, he's too tight. Everyone knows it now, he won all his bracelets before he put his book out and went into detail in how he plays. He folds rediculously strong hands because he doesnt want to be involved in big pots unless he has the nuts.Just go all in and take the pot from him. He won't call you, he's a pussy.

I disagree....but whatever. Everyone is determined to paint hellmuth as a bad player.He has more hold-em bracelets than any person on the planet. But really who thinks WSOp bracelets mean anything. way overrated.

When he first started playing big, yes, his style worked extremely well but the gigs up. He's not winning another holdem bracelet unless he drastically changes his style.

perhaps. But that doesnt mean the talent isnt there. He has made several WPT final tables in the last 3 years and he did win the Heads up holdem thing on NBC.He might need to loosen up a little bit. But you cant really judge anything on a couple years of tourney results either.

[Allie 0]

I really don't know what Phil is getting at with this. I know Mr. Head personally, and know how he plays....and so does Phil. If Mr. Head raised pre flop, and called an all in re-raise, Phil knows he's a dog with 88. He made the correct lay down, and knows it.....so why question it? It has happened to me a zillion times (yes a zillion!), where I've folded a mid pair to big raises or 2 all ins, or whatever...and then hit my card...it happens all the time to lots of players. So why did Phil think this was worthy of being written in a article? LOL. To amaze us all with his lay down (while lamenting his "conservative" play) ?? Just a little more Phil-false-modesty to me. Last night I was watching a friend play online in a SNG...he raised in EP with JJ....had 3 people go all in after him. He laid down the JJ....and the others held AA, KK and QQ. But....a jack spiked the flop. Would have knocked out 3 people and been massive chip leader....but knew it was the correct decision nonetheless. Just like Phil did.

I'm not sure I believe this story...Your friend's jacks ran into AA, KK, and QQ? I wonder what the chances are of that actually happening?

Huh? Why the fuck would I make this up?? LMAO. It was at a sit-n-go at Paradise poker last night. And don't question my integrity .... you haven't been around here long enough to know anything about me.

[looshle 6]

Phil isn't one of the top 3 tourney players. He's not even close, he's too tight. Everyone knows it now, he won all his bracelets before he put his book out and went into detail in how he plays. He folds rediculously strong hands because he doesnt want to be involved in big pots unless he has the nuts.Just go all in and take the pot from him. He won't call you, he's a pussy.

I disagree....but whatever. Everyone is determined to paint hellmuth as a bad player.He has more hold-em bracelets than any person on the planet. But really who thinks WSOp bracelets mean anything. way overrated.

When he first started playing big, yes, his style worked extremely well but the gigs up. He's not winning another holdem bracelet unless he drastically changes his style.

perhaps. But that doesnt mean the talent isnt there. He has made several WPT final tables in the last 3 years and he did win the Heads up holdem thing on NBC.He might need to loosen up a little bit. But you cant really judge anything on a couple years of tourney results either.

He may have made the final 9 or whatever, Im not sure but hasnt he only been on air once or twice? I only remember him making the final 6 once but he might have made it another time.

[CaneBrain 95]

He has made at least 2 WPT final tables.In one, he kept getting battered by Esfandiari. (cant remember which)In the other, he kept getting unlucky against Hoyt Corkins, including a brutal suckout where Hoyt hit a miracle river 7 on him. (that one was at foxwoods)He also made the final table of a pot -limit holdem tourney at the WSOP last year where that young kid gavin griffin won.Plus, he came in 3rd at the USPC at the Taj 2 years ago when Toto Leonidas won (Phil, again here, lost on a brutal suckout at the hands of Toto.)To be honest, Phil has run awfully unlucky at final tables the last 2-3 years.

[TruePoker 1]

‘Those that can... play. Those that can't...teach. Those that think they can...play and then complain about their terrific bad beats.'

[Wingmaster05 0]

To be honest, Phil has run awfully unlucky at final tables the last 2-3 years.

I've come to the conclusion that very tight players say this to justify what happens. In reality, their lack of gambling rarely puts them in bad positions to suck out on people. It appears as though they are always unlucky, but that's not the case. Sure, i don't have adequate evidence for Phil, but my brother makes the same claim all the time. Same type of player. See where i first got the idea?

[KowboyKoop 0]

First, to the person that said Cloutier wasn't that good or whatever, you must not know much about poker...if it hadn't been for a miracle outdraw, Cloutier instead of Ferguson would have won the main event and Cloutier would be a legend, just because he doesn't yell or have any flashy antics doesn't mean he isn't great, just go ask, oh I don't know, any pro whatsoever where T.J. ranks in the list of all-time NL holdem tourney players...Next, to those who say Phil Hellmuth will never win a bracelet unless he DRASTICALLY?? changes his style....you are a moron. Hellmuth is THE best NL holdem player. His other games may be lacking, yes, but his NL tourney play is incredible....Yeah, it has been SO LONG since Phil has won a bracelet, oh wait, he won TWO bracelets in 2003.....he has suffered some ridiculous suckouts at A LOT of final tables recently, so yeah, whatever....by the time Hellmuth retires, he will have at least 12 bracelets and maybe more....and also, his book does not outline the way he plays...it is a book for beginners..it is not a very good book, and there isn't even that much in there about No Limit holdem anyways, it is mostly about limit holdem and other games and the strategies are EXTREMELY basic...so my point is, don't just say whatever comes to your mind, think about them first, seriously, Wanker!!!!!!!

[Ron_Mexico 4,219]

To be honest, Phil has run awfully unlucky at final tables the last 2-3 years.

I've come to the conclusion that very tight players say this to justify what happens. In reality, their lack of gambling rarely puts them in bad positions to suck out on people. It appears as though they are always unlucky, but that's not the case. Sure, i don't have adequate evidence for Phil, but my brother makes the same claim all the time. Same type of player. See where i first got the idea?

Your brother and Phil are the same type of player? Thats rich.

[CaneBrain 95]

To be honest, Phil has run awfully unlucky at final tables the last 2-3 years.

I've come to the conclusion that very tight players say this to justify what happens. In reality, their lack of gambling rarely puts them in bad positions to suck out on people. It appears as though they are always unlucky, but that's not the case. Sure, i don't have adequate evidence for Phil, but my brother makes the same claim all the time. Same type of player. See where i first got the idea?

I really dont see the logic in your argument at all.He got in all his money twice (Foxwoods against Hoyt, USPC against Toto) with 3 people left both times as a better than 80% favorite. Both times he lost. Thats poker, of course.But everything else you wrote strikes me as gibberish. I am not talking about him sucking out on people. The reason he is so rarely in that position (being behind, drawing out on someone) is because he IS so good at NL tourneys.I was referring to the fact that he suffered two very bad beats at crucial final table moments that were probably the difference between 3rd and 1st. Again, that is poker and so it goes.Is Phil too tight sometimes? Perhaps.But he has more hold-em WSOP bracelets than anyone else and I think that should count for something.

[Army Eye 0]

Phil isn't one of the top 3 tourney players. He's not even close, he's too tight. Everyone knows it now, he won all his bracelets before he put his book out and went into detail in how he plays. He folds rediculously strong hands because he doesnt want to be involved in big pots unless he has the nuts.Just go all in and take the pot from him. He won't call you, he's a pussy.

You don't know anything about how Hellmuth plays. This is clear.

[exdubliner 0]

wow, are you guys retarded? Phil Hellmuth is simply complaining that he laid down a worse hand that would've sucked out. He never ever seriously considered calling an all in with 88 for a second. He's too good to do that, he has made so many big laydowns in a NL tourney situation, calling him a fish for writing that he was upset he folded the 88. He was just being Phil and complaining, like he always does. Shut the hell up, he's not a fish, who cares if you don't like him, he's better than you'll ever be...now let this thread die.

[TruePoker 1]

wow, are you guys retarded? Phil Hellmuth is simply complaining that he laid down a worse hand that would've sucked out. He never ever seriously considered calling an all in with 88 for a second. He's too good to do that, he has made so many big laydowns in a NL tourney situation, calling him a fish for writing that he was upset he folded the 88. He was just being Phil and complaining, like he always does. Shut the hell up, he's not a fish, who cares if you don't like him, he's better than you'll ever be...now let this thread die.

by replying to it :SI actually love Phil, I never said anywhere that I didn't. I think he is a wonderful addition to the poker world. I also never said anything about his playing skill, I just announced that some of the things that he said could be put into the "Things a fish would say" topic.Next time you write the most long-winded, boring paragraph in history, please at least know what you are talking about.

[alf13 0]

Phil isn't one of the top 3 tourney players. He's not even close, he's too tight. Everyone knows it now, he won all his bracelets before he put his book out and went into detail in how he plays. He folds rediculously strong hands because he doesnt want to be involved in big pots unless he has the nuts.Just go all in and take the pot from him. He won't call you, he's a pussy.

You don't know anything about how Hellmuth plays. This is clear.

WHY do people insist on calling Hellmuth a tight player? WHY???????He plays a ton of hands....and is aggressive as hell in position...some of you don't know what the fuk you are talking about.

[JohnnyCache 0]

I really don't know what Phil is getting at with this. I know Mr. Head personally, and know how he plays....and so does Phil. If Mr. Head raised pre flop, and called an all in re-raise, Phil knows he's a dog with 88. He made the correct lay down, and knows it.....so why question it? It has happened to me a zillion times (yes a zillion!), where I've folded a mid pair to big raises or 2 all ins, or whatever...and then hit my card...it happens all the time to lots of players. So why did Phil think this was worthy of being written in a article? LOL. To amaze us all with his lay down (while lamenting his "conservative" play) ?? Just a little more Phil-false-modesty to me. Last night I was watching a friend play online in a SNG...he raised in EP with JJ....had 3 people go all in after him. He laid down the JJ....and the others held AA, KK and QQ. But....a jack spiked the flop. Would have knocked out 3 people and been massive chip leader....but knew it was the correct decision nonetheless. Just like Phil did.

I'm not sure I believe this story...Your friend's jacks ran into AA, KK, and QQ? I wonder what the chances are of that actually happening?

You play this game long enough, you'll see some weird stuff. The odds being against something happening means that sometimes, it happens.

[Men the Hellmuth 0]

I really don't know what Phil is getting at with this. I know Mr. Head personally, and know how he plays....and so does Phil. If Mr. Head raised pre flop, and called an all in re-raise, Phil knows he's a dog with 88. He made the correct lay down, and knows it.....so why question it? It has happened to me a zillion times (yes a zillion!), where I've folded a mid pair to big raises or 2 all ins, or whatever...and then hit my card...it happens all the time to lots of players. So why did Phil think this was worthy of being written in a article? LOL. To amaze us all with his lay down (while lamenting his "conservative" play) ?? Just a little more Phil-false-modesty to me. Last night I was watching a friend play online in a SNG...he raised in EP with JJ....had 3 people go all in after him. He laid down the JJ....and the others held AA, KK and QQ. But....a jack spiked the flop. Would have knocked out 3 people and been massive chip leader....but knew it was the correct decision nonetheless. Just like Phil did.

I'm not sure I believe this story...Your friend's jacks ran into AA, KK, and QQ? I wonder what the chances are of that actually happening?

If you play enough hands, you'll see everything .... trust me... i was playing in a NL 1-2 cash game locally.... one guys raises, another guy calls, next guys goes all in, im in the big blind thinking im folding anything here, well i have pocket aces, i go all in, and the orginal raiser goes all in and the caller also calls all in.... the hands...... KK, QQ, KK, and me with the aces, which flops a full house and i rake a 600 dollar pot..... so if you play long enough... you'll see it all......

[JaysonWeber 0]

Jayson dont you think you and BigD are overstating it a bit??Phil Hellmuth is not a big fish. He might be a weaker member of a high limit cash game. There is a difference between that and a fish.

He's not a big fish in high limit cash games? How big do you think he plays cash games currently? How big do you think he's played in the past? How much money do you think he's won/loss?

[checkymcfold 0]

You don't know anything about how Hellmuth plays. This is clear.WHY do people insist on calling Hellmuth a tight player? WHY???????He plays a ton of hands....and is aggressive as hell in position...some of you don't know what the fuk you are talking about.

hey, someone actually has a decent idea of how hellmuth plays. just surprised it took nearly to the end of the 2nd page to find it.hellmuth is better than all of you--and better than almost all of you will ever be--at hold 'em games, cash or otherwise. he is not the best player in the world at cash games, but is EASILY in the top five all time at tournaments. anyone who says otherwise is a mindblowing idiot.he is also a bit of a dick sometimes, and occasionally says stupid things that are easily misinterpreted. so do i. i try to avoid hypocrisy whenever possible; you should too.

[exdubliner 0]

The weakest player on the table is a fish, irrelevant of how good they are...When Phil sits at the table with regular high limit cash game players he would be the fish, simple as.Anyways, the deal isn't that he laid them down, it's that he even had second thoughts about laying them down because an 8 flopped...

All I was saying was that it's obvious he didn't actually have second thoughts, he was just complaining because he's phil. And seeing as you're the one who started this thread, and it's entitled fishy Phil Hellmuth, I jumped to the conclusion that you were calling him a fish. Why don't you figure out what it is you're trying to say before flaming someone for calling you out on an error. You see, I definitely notice a contradiction in your argument, between saying "I never said anything about Phil Hellmuth's skill" and starting a thread called fishy phil helllmuth.

[jack24bauer24 0]

To be honest, Phil has run awfully unlucky at final tables the last 2-3 years.

I've come to the conclusion that very tight players say this to justify what happens. In reality, their lack of gambling rarely puts them in bad positions to suck out on people. It appears as though they are always unlucky, but that's not the case. Sure, i don't have adequate evidence for Phil, but my brother makes the same claim all the time. Same type of player. See where i first got the idea?

Ya comarping your brother and Phil Hellmuth makes total sense. The two are nearly identical in their style of play and past achievements.Thanks for such an informative post.

[emineric 0]

Jayson dont you think you and BigD are overstating it a bit??Phil Hellmuth is not a big fish. He might be a weaker member of a high limit cash game. There is a difference between that and a fish.

He's not a big fish in high limit cash games? How big do you think he plays cash games currently? How big do you think he's played in the past? How much money do you think he's won/loss?

i saw him take 30k or so off spirit rock aka mahatma aka pragress in 50/100 NL. that's pretty high, no? granted it was a terrible beat, phil called a raise preflop with 42, flop was AQ2, friedman bet pot and phil called. turn was 2, friedman bet pot, phil all in, friedman calls and turns over AQ. he then congratulates phil on his steller play, phil says thanks and friedman goes off a little bit and tells him he outplayed phil all night and phil got lucky there.

[Chiggleslap 0]

Phil isn't suited for cash games because he steams so much that his entire buy-in is going to get pissed away with the first sign of adversity. Phil can go on mega-tilt just because somebody called his raise preflop with a suited connector and beat him. Phil can go on tilt if someone pairs their overcard against his under pair on the flop. Phil goes on tilt. It's not an act, guys, he tilts.Check out Barry Greenstein's website, where Barry rates several players on several different characteristics. Phil's "Steam Control" rating is the worst of any player he rates (he scores a 2 on a 1 to 10 scale, if I remember correctly). The most Phil can lose by steaming off his chips in a tourney is his buy-in, whereas in a cash game he can steam off a lot more. If he gets in the zone, he can play great poker, but he's so volatile that the thought of him playing cash games is, as Phil likes to say, "just scary."

[looshle 6]

Phil isn't one of the top 3 tourney players. He's not even close, he's too tight. Everyone knows it now, he won all his bracelets before he put his book out and went into detail in how he plays. He folds rediculously strong hands because he doesnt want to be involved in big pots unless he has the nuts.Just go all in and take the pot from him. He won't call you, he's a pussy.

You don't know anything about how Hellmuth plays. This is clear.

Well I know how he plays in cash games.Horribly.That much is extremely clear.