kings preflop, ace on turn (limit) aug 1st

[akishore 0]

no one's arguing that we check/call the turn with the intent of check/folding the river.all we're saying is that check/calling the turn is best, and then we can evaluate the river.if you're willing to bet here and fold to a raise, check/calling and check/folding the river UI costs you the _exact_ same amount of money, but you leave yourself two outs to improve.see the advantage?if you're that confident in your read and are willing to fold this pot on the turn to a raise, you should be more willing to just check/call the turn bet and fold unimproved on the river if you really don't want to pay villian off.in general, though, i like check/calling the turn with the intent of either bet/calling the river or check/calling the river again (depending on our read and whether villian bet the turn, etc.).remember that sometimes, it will get checked behind on the turn, too, so you don't always even have to pay villian off for more money than the bet/fold line.aseem

[BeanGW 0]

no one's arguing that we check/call the turn with the intent of check/folding the river.Edogg said it was a possibility, and DN mentioned it as one potential option. Anyway... it wasn't really the main part of my argument there.see the advantage?Yup. Absolutely.I was just trying to say that I think there are situations that aren't too different from the hand described, where it could go bet/fold because of slight changes in pot size or composition of the flop. Thas all I was sayin.

[akishore 0]

no one's arguing that we check/call the turn with the intent of check/folding the river.Edogg said it was a possibility, and DN mentioned it as one potential option. Anyway... it wasn't really the main part of my argument there.

yep, i realize, but i think the intent of that was to mean...if you bet and fold to a raise because you believe him [i.e. he's extremely passive, and you're confident you're beat], it's better to check/call and then fold to a bet on the river.you have the same information that leads you to believe you're beat (maybe more since he fired AGAIN on the river, which some passive players wouldn't do even with hands that beat you), but you gave yourself a chance to improve.

I was just trying to say that I think there are situations that aren't too different from the hand described, where it could go bet/fold because of slight changes in pot size or composition of the flop.

you're right, there probably are, but then they probably wouldn't qualify as wa/wb and then bet/folding might be more correct.aseem

[DKE_XP120 0]

if you're willing to bet here and fold to a raise, check/calling and check/folding the river UI costs you the _exact_ same amount of money, but you leave yourself two outs to improve.see the advantage?

no, but i see the disadvantage in that choice. Thats a horrible play.Its costs you just as much, but you lose any chance of pushing him off a weaker hand. Or getting him to call down with a high PP. If he has QQ, and decides not try and bluff, he will check behind us, and probobly fold when we immediatly bet the river he will know he is behind If that happens we are missing bets by checking.If we bet here, and he decides he is calling down, we gain both bets.The amount of equity have to take the pot with the bet (or gain multiple bets by him calling down), far outways the amount its worth chasing our 2 outs.you chase the miracle card, i'm pushing my hand.

if you bet and fold to a raise because you believe him [i.e. he's extremely passive, and you're confident you're beat], it's better to check/call and then fold to a bet on the river.

He doesnt have to be extremely passive for us to be confident we're beat and fold to a raise...Aseem, what range of hands do you put him on with his 3-bet PF?

[akishore 0]

steve, again, i'm not advocating check/calling because of two outs.those two outs are just an added bonus if you want to fold for one bet (e.g. when you bet and get raised). again, i would never fold this river.my biggest problem by far here is folding at any point in this hand.it doesn't really matter what range of hands we put him on, we're never less than way ahead and we're almost never less than way behind. whether you say AA-TT, AK-AJ, KQ or AA-77, AK-A9, KQ-KT, QJ, we're never drawing well or just a little ahead.the point is, it's just a plain wa/wb situation, and folding is just really not that great.you say the advantage of getting value from QQ/JJ outweighs the two outs, and like i said, the two outs isn't the point. to me, the advantage of absolutely not folding the best hand (at the cost of at MOST one more bet) and inducing worse hands that would bet if checked to but fold if bet to, FAR outweighs that value we might get from a loose player calling QQ/JJ.aseem

[celtic020 0]

Check/calling this turn is horrible.

why exactly?aseem

Check/Calling the turn is awful for two reasons. Although youre getting 8 to 1 in a big pot, if he has an A, your a bigger dog than that. Secondly, if the guy has the nerve, or idiocy, to raise you on the turn with queens or jacks...the reason you might check call here, you can still fold here, save the big blinds, and punish him later.PS...the 4 8 at bellagio is the easiest game around.

[akishore 0]

He doesnt have to be extremely passive for us to be confident we're beat and fold to a raise...

by the way, this is just not right, IMHO.you'd be getting 9-to-1 to call his raise. you'd have to be around 90% confident that you're beat.it's extremely rare that you can be THAT confident that your opponent isn't taking a donk-stab at it thinking he can get you to fold.aseem

[akishore 0]

Check/calling this turn is horrible.

why exactly?aseem

Check/Calling the turn is awful for two reasons. Although youre getting 8 to 1 in a big pot, if he has an A, your a bigger dog than that. Secondly, if the guy has the nerve, or idiocy, to raise you on the turn with queens or jacks...the reason you might check call here, you can still fold here, save the big blinds, and punish him later.PS...the 4 8 at bellagio is the easiest game around.

wow, you just missed the whole three pages of debate.aseem

[celtic020 0]

Yeah i just skimmed it because it essentially came down to 2 schools thought...I just wanted to say I side with the anti check callers, although I completely understand everyone's arguments and respect them. Mathematically though, I could never check call here. Good luck.

[DKE_XP120 0]

wow, you just missed the whole three pages of debate.aseem

[Actuary 3]

just curious..we've had several Kinks/queens with Ace on Flop or Ace on Turn (does it matter?) but only this one has generated so much attention, that I recall.To the extent that Aseem has spurred that along, great. It's good to have someone crtically thinking against what has become convention: attack attack attack. (Jay Boogie as well)Of course many strong players still feel bet/fold is best...Was there something about this hand that generated more discussion..that I"m missing? Because this situation happens quite often...it's refreshing to see that even veterans aren't agreeing!Furthermore...I've often posted about the risk of bet/fold and how that has led me to not value bet the river as often as I should...but I also don't fold with the best hand (I'm sure I'm too passive, but still..bet/fold seems over prescribed) I've even considered trying to bluff raise in position to get a bet/fold type player to let it go..but I figure most players don't "know better" and call me anyways!.

[UglyJimStudly 0]

Was there something about this hand that generated more discussion..that I"m missing?  Because this situation happens quite often...it's refreshing to see that even veterans aren't agreeing!

Some n00b named Daniel Negreanu chimed in on this one, which for some odd reason drew more attention and comment to this hand than normal.

[jayboogie 0]

I was in support of check-calling all along, nice to see some others come around of course that's after Daniel posts his thoughts.The reasoning of course is simple, the pot is big and your either way ahead of way behind. If you bet, hands like JJ, QQ may fold. If you check, they might try to bet the turn to steal the pot, so you induce them to bet a weaker hand. Deciding to call this down on the river is read dependent, but I think I pay them off here in most instances against most players. Some people think check-calling is weak here, but in order to be a succesful player, you need to be able to switch gears and not just auto-bet and pound the pot. A good player can easily figure this out and combat this strategy. You don't always have to be the aggressor and the one betting to make money in poker, you can make money by inducing bluffs and weak hands to bet into you.

[brian67 0]

Aseem, the more i read your posts the more convinced i am that we have a very similar style and view of the game. Personally i try to showdown as many of the wa/wb situations as possible because i assume that i have the best of it more often than not. That may be optimistic, but either way i like to think that check/calling in this spot earns me more money in the long run because of the obvious difference that i am paying about the same amount to see more showdowns. Of course it's good to see some pros agree with my line of thought, yet i'm sure that some top pros would also disagree, either way i will continue to check/call in that spot. BTW i think DN made a very valuable point about having the best hand with no apparent draws. This aspect was probably my biggest leak early on and it took me countless hands to adjust. It's something that a lot more people should probably evaluate.

[Stylistic 0]

Honestly whenever I'm in position and an opponent raises early position i'd like to reraise with a hand like 88-10/10 just to see where he's at, an advantage to me since I am goin to be in position on the flop. If my opponent caps it preflop, I have a few ways to win the pot thinkin that he should have JJ-AA.I can possibly win the pot ifa) i hit a setB) no high cards come out and he has AK or AQc) if he does have a bigger pocket pair, I have the ability to scare him off if a K or an A falls. When these cards fall, I'm goin to be a bit agressive and see if I can sense weakness. In case where this scenerio is likely to happen, a person check calling me on the turn will take away my ability to have a chance to win the pot. I dont want to overtype this since this topic is outdated

[pokepoke1967 0]

DN said, "The more you try plays like that, the more likely your opponents WILL start to makes bluff raises on the turn against you. You don't want that, trust me."Isn't that enough to change peoples' minds? Some people still insist that they will bet/fold the turn everytime here. It's no wonder that DN, EL, JC, and JH won't be running out of easy pickings anytime soon.

[DKE_XP120 0]

DN said, "The more you try plays like that, the more likely your opponents WILL start to makes bluff raises on the turn against you. You don't want that, trust me."Isn't that enough to change peoples' minds?  Some people still insist that they will bet/fold the turn everytime here.  It's no wonder that DN, EL, JC, and JH won't be running out of easy pickings anytime soon.

We're not playing live games like they do.We're not playing the same small circle of opponents they do.most of us play on the INTERNET... Maybe you've heard of it? Well the internet has places to play poker on. So instead of the same group of people i'd be playing with LIVE, there thousands and thousands of people on every limit to play against every day. In the past 40k hands online, the most hands I have with any particular opponent is around 500-600, and they are trickier players, not the same loose players you regularly see, that we're discussing here. And that type of player, isnt paying attention.So maybe you should think things through a little better before you open your mouth to critisize, no?

[brian67 0]

DN said, "The more you try plays like that, the more likely your opponents WILL start to makes bluff raises on the turn against you. You don't want that, trust me."Isn't that enough to change peoples' minds? Some people still insist that they will bet/fold the turn everytime here. It's no wonder that DN, EL, JC, and JH won't be running out of easy pickings anytime soon.

I bluff raise the turn a lot when i see players use the bet/fold with any regularity. At the same time I think a lot of the push push push guys win enough pots that they wouldn't have won at showdown that it may even out somewhat over the longrun. So personally i check/call in this spot, but I can see some other plays working sometimes as well.

[Tabulus 0]

Me Erick Lindgren Joe Cassidy Jennifer Harman Wow,Just wow,

[cdt002 0]

My first post in Strat, the open invitation from aseem drew me here. Check/Call is good for more reasons. 1) We gain a chance to win the pot where we may be wa with a c/c where a bet/fold might lay down the best hand, as has been covered. 2)We save bets if we are wb but call a turn raise after our bet, fearing a bluff-raiseThe only real addition I have is 3) We commit to showdown, where we learn much about our opponent, including what he 3 bet preflop with as the button, called on the flop, bet with on the turn, and fired again with on the river. Won't this gain bets later, even if we lose one or two bets here by check/calling?A bet/fold is the 'weaker' play here I think, because you essentially give up money and a potential read when you could check/call for the same price.

[BilliardsBoy 0]

First: check/callSecond:

I just spoke to Jennifer and she said she would check/call the turn and probably pay it off on the river because the pot was too big. So all of the following voted for check/call:MeErick LindgrenJoe CassidyJennifer HarmanI could keep making phone calls, but I feel like that's a decent sample.

GREATEST POST EVER. Can anyone say SUPER LEGIT!

[MDBLakers 0]

You guys are all wrong including Daniel and his posse.Fold preflop. <sw>

[HtotheNootch 0]

I thought I was being weak/tight when I would check call turns like these. I feel better now.At low limits, you'd be surprised how many times people bet into you with some weak hands when you shut down.

[DLizzle 0]

After actually playing hands like these since my last post and running it through in a simulation and stuff, I retract my previous position and will have to agree with check calling for reasons people have already mentioned.

[psujohn 0]

DN said, "The more you try plays like that, the more likely your opponents WILL start to makes bluff raises on the turn against you. You don't want that, trust me."

While this certainly applies given DN's talk about habits that you don't want to bring with you to higher limits it's certainly never the case here. Besides the fact that 90% of your online opponents don't pay enough attention to determine if you're "making a play" often, add the fact that this situation doesn't come up that often and that you rarely play more than 100 hands with any given person and it's just never happening at online, low limits.