my fundamental annoyance with poker

[john kane 0]

as a few of you may know, im a student who like others are doing it as a summer job.and the first few days have made me think;when you win at poker, your not often celebrating the fact that you have won x dollars, but more the long term implications that you are a 'winning' poker player, and that this makes you feel as if the future looks bright.however, the flip side is a %*$* pain.so i decided to calculate my winnings since november 2004; $9,200.if someone had told me this, id be over the moon, i had debts, ive paid them all off and still have around $2,500 to spend as i wish (although that is bankroll as well).but yet im more frustrated than possibly ive ever been (poker wise).first of the three days so far, i pick up $390 playing 1-2NL. great.second day. day from hell. holdem NL drop about $250, holdem limit drop about $200. i was playing great. today. play golf in morning. decide to switch to a 20$ short handed tourney. final two. high blinds, guy tries to steal on flop, and he hits 3 outer on river. bye bye $40 extra.ive played for such a long time now this shouldnt affect me. but ive found myself becoming almost a perfectionist. every fold, call, bet and raise i know very much what im doing in regards to the odds and EV. yet the opponents sometimes make such horrific calls i simply cant believe the hands they show, the raises they make. i suppose this is more of a - im pissed off the way im playing a game im better at, yet i have to accept losses.i know the reply id make to this post, and i know i should take such advice.maybe my play is suffering. maybe i am becoming to obsessed by the 'correct textbook' play. but it is this play which has won me the $$$ in the past. i just find i cant get my head round some of the raises playing make.for example;short handed 1-2NL; utg folds, next guy limps, i see AJo on button, i raise to make to 6.SB and BB call and limper folds (he has respect for me)flop comes 5 10 Jcheck check.20 in pot.now what the **** do i bet? ive had this scenario way too mch yesterday and always got screwed on.i typically bet around 15. i think any more and the guys are folding their missed flop. ive hit TPTK. i want one caller to be making a mistake by calling. so i bet 15. any less and i think they'd call with one overcard.they both call.turn card; 6check check. i bet 35 (with the intention of checking on river no matter what the card is). SB calls BB min raises to 70.and this has been it all yesterday. i fold. why? ive showed strength and the guy has check raised me. he must have me beat. but what can i do? maybe ive just been having the bad luck. whats your take on how to play the hand?just by writing this its helped me realise i should simply stick with it and let the variance settle. i suppose its maybe just as im now treating this more as a job that im over-emphasising the importance of results. that now its not a 'ive got a spare few hours, lets play some cards before going down the pub'. its now 'wake up at 9.30am and play till lunch, then after lunch till dinner and then chill out in the evening. maybe i should get this more into perspective, spend some money on some things i want and enjoy myself.the other thought ive been having is just how relative money is.suppose this year id only won say $3,000. id have no money, and some debt. yet id probably feel exactly the same as i do with this $2,500 i have in the bank - id still be looking at poker to win me $$$. i understand this is all free flowing thoughts, and i wouldnt be surprised if i didnt get replies, but id like to think ive got some worth out of writing this, that hopefully, if i can take a step back, spend some money, realise why im playing, and then get myself back on track.replies really would be appreciated, whether insulting, opinions, thoughts, agreements, disagreements.john

[legbuh 0]

Youre simply seeing the "luck factor" coming in to play there.It burns, but you have to get over it. In the long run, you'll be ahead.

[Whatever 1]

In the long run, you'll be ahead.

In the long run he already is ahead.Short answer: Downswings suck but they're as unavoidable as winning longterm is when you play correctly.

[TheIceman05 0]

Been there. The more I play and the better I become, the more losses (even "good" losses) become frustrating, and the less enjoyment I get from the money I win.At least you're not questioning your ability... when you have a couple weeks in a row where you just can't seem to win, THEN you could start wondering if you're playing well at all. That is the worst.Head up,Ice

[Wang 0]

"Money isn't real....It doesn't matter, it only seems like it does."

[chuckf410 0]

as a few of you may know, im a student who like others are doing it as a summer job.and the first few days have made me think;when you win at poker, your not often celebrating the fact that you have won x dollars, but more the long term implications that you are a 'winning' poker player, and that this makes you feel as if the future looks bright.however, the flip side is a %*$* pain.so i decided to calculate my winnings since november 2004; $9,200.if someone had told me this, id be over the moon, i had debts, ive paid them all off and still have around $2,500 to spend as i wish (although that is bankroll as well).

Well it looks to me like to core of your problem is you've turned a game that was fun for you into a job for you. Mentally you have to realize that they are two different things. I love what I do for a living, but I don't expect that to be fun and get excitement out of it on a daily basis. Sometimes the job is work and you have bad days. You must suck it up sometimes. And as for that $2500 to spend as you wish and it also be your bankroll is the wrong way to look at it. It's either your 'spending' money or your 'business' money. When you confuse the two is when you will fail at making poker your 'summer job'. I'm not saying don't take profits, but remember that without a core roll to fall back on during your [current] downswings, you will go broke.

[Kendren 1]

Get blitzed, drop down to a lower level, and destroy some people so it's fun again. Remember why you started playing this game in the first place. It's a great way to spend a few hours. Maybe drop down to $25NL and go all in every hand, or at least see every flop. Make funny plays. Just have fun with it again.

[Sushiman 0]

Get blitzed, drop down to a lower level, and destroy some people so it's fun again. Remember why you started playing this game in the first place. It's a great way to spend a few hours. Maybe drop down to $25NL and go all in every hand, or at least see every flop. Make funny plays. Just have fun with it again.

That can actually get expensive pretty quick. I suggest SNGs if you want to happy go lucky.I really think the joy of poker diminishes when it's played on the internet. When you're not dragging a physical pot, going head to head with an actual person staring you down it's just kind of bleh. Right now everytime I win without the mortal nuts I think "wow thank god no idiots sucked out on me" instead of actually feeling happy about the win.

[pogiolithis 0]

I know how you feel buddy.I'm in the worst losing streak of my poker career, coming up on my fourth week with a loss of about 15k. I've never been outdrawn so much in my live by terrible players. I'm sure you know how hard it is to dodge 22 cards between 3 other players is. I'm not going to bore you with bad beats and lucky draws, I know I've made some mistakes here and there as we all have. It's hard to keep telling yourself that you will make more money in the long run when you seem to keep getting pounded. But, that is what I'm doing.So much of poker is believing in yourself and your ability to make the right decision at the right time. When I lose a pot I don't bitch and moan - at least try not to - but, rather try to repeat in my head that "It's just a loan. It's just a loan." Some say take and break and some breaks are good. But I would rather keep playing and ride it out. hope that helps,Joshia

[justblaze 0]

still sticking with the ole' 4 buyin rule?

[brad44 0]

When I feel i'm going on tilt, or just want to have fun, I play like a complete maniac in $1+.1 sng's on ultimate bet. Brad

[john kane 0]

some really good thoughts, cheers.i really should try to get a seperate poker account and spending account going. ive tried a few times to deposit a certain amount and just build that up, but i end out getting stuck for a while on a certain level in my account and then cash out back to another number.agree with the 'keep playing' rather than taking a break. so long as i know im playing my winning game it'll be the fastest way to get out of it. although i have taken the rest of the day off and looking for someone i want to buy - yes, that counts as 'taking a break' for me :-) have to say i wont be going for the '25NL' all ins, i dont want to lose money fast, but think SNG are a good option just so i can make some plays without losing a lot, in case that were to happen.i think part of it may also be now im actually financially in a nice situation for me for the first time in 7-8 months, and so i dont really want to blow it, but having said that, i know i am a winning player and so will carry on, just got to make sure im playing at a limit where im not 'scared money'.as for that 4 buy in comment. i said 5 buyins. and yes, i stick by that for short handed NL. a guy on 2+2 mentioned that he's been playing as a job for 5 years and has never dropped more than 7 buy ins. in 5 years. i believe i said 5 was enough to have in your account, and that maybe once one may need more, possibly. and i said i dropped 250$ in NL. that is 1.25 buy ins. and thats a bad session. NL short handed is like the beginning of a tournament - small chip accumulation with the occasional big hand when you vs a bad player, or if you hit a monster hand vs a good hand. ring games are deciding whether you have the best hand, short handed is getting the other guy to think you have the best hand (if you have the worst hand) or the worst hand (if you have the best hand) etc etc. anyway, enough of my rants about short handed.thanks a lot for thoughts and good luck pogiolithis, you deserve a turn in your luck, john

[AlexHoops 0]

I have also been on a horrible downswing lately (200bb). Im starting to wonder if I am a winning player or not. I keep telling myself that in the long run I will come out ahead, but now I am wondering if I will ever make it to the long run. Any statisticians out there? What are the odds of not turning a profit after 10,000 hands if your skill level is 2bb/100. Also, what are the odds of being down 200bb after 10,000?

[Ron_Mexico 4,219]

I'm starting to believe that everyone on this forum is a winning poker player. Just curious if anyone is actually even or even down in their poker career. Somewhat off topic, but who cares?

[DB10-2 0]

I really think the joy of poker diminishes when it's played on the internet. When you're not dragging a physical pot, going head to head with an actual person staring you down it's just kind of bleh.  Right now everytime I win without the mortal nuts I think "wow thank god no idiots sucked out on me" instead of actually feeling happy about the win.

right there with you.

[TheMathProf 0]

I have also been on a horrible downswing lately (200bb). Im starting to wonder if I am a winning player or not. I keep telling myself that in the long run I will come out ahead, but now I am wondering if I will ever make it to the long run. Any statisticians out there? What are the odds of not turning a profit after 10,000 hands if your skill level is 2bb/100. Also, what are the odds of being down 200bb after 10,000?

Clearly, what's needed is an idea of what the standard deviation is for this kind of thing.If one is to assume that the standard deviation is 1BB, this would mean that 68% of the time, you would be between +1BB/100 and +3BB/100. You would be between even and +4BB/100 95% of the time, and you would be less than even 2.5% of the time (half of the remaining 5%).Now what I don't know is what the standard deviation of this kind of thing is, and it probably also depends on how much variance your game allows for.

[CobaltBlue 662]

Hilger says in his book:"If a good player plays 100 hours of $20-$40 LHE, he could win as much as $20,000, but once in a blue moon he might lose $10,000. A good poker player could (might) only break even after 1400 hours of play."He also has a chart for this example:After 100 hours: -$11,000 to $19,000After 300 hours: -$14,000 to $29,500After 500 hours: -$12,500 to $52,500After 1000 hours: -$6,800 to $87,000After 1400 hours: $0 to $112,000

[walktheplank69 0]

only thing I ever read that helped was when Jennifer Harmon said "I think of poker as a business and I regard bad beats as a business expense"It's stopped me putting my foot through my monitor on several occassions.

[walktheplank69 0]

only thing I ever read that helped was when Jennifer Harmon said "I think of poker as a business and I regard bad beats as a business expense"It's stopped me putting my foot through my monitor on several occassions.

[ford0067 0]

I'm starting to believe that everyone on this forum is a winning poker player. Just curious if anyone is actually even or even down in their poker career. Somewhat off topic, but who cares?

On the whole I am down since I started playing online. I attribute that to mostly poor play when I first started. I quit playing for cash about 6mths ago except for the occassional home game. Over that time I have improved my play a great deal. By chance I got a chance to re-enter cash games on Party Poker (details here http://www.fullcontactpoker.com/poker-forums/viewtopic.php?t=14872&highlight= ://http://www.fullcontactpoker.com/pok...amp;highlight= ***EDIT Stupid newbie can't get the URL link to work ***)So I am hoping to turn around by losses for free I guess the moral is we are not all winners right now or at least some of us can admit it.

[chuckf410 0]

I'm starting to believe that everyone on this forum is a winning poker player. Just curious if anyone is actually even or even down in their poker career. Somewhat off topic, but who cares?

The people that come to this forum for the most part are here to enhance thier knowledge of the game. So overall those that take that time will come out ahead of those that don't learn the finer points of the game.Coming out ahead is just a natural progression of added learning.Some may have downswings at times, but that doesn't mean that overall they aren't ahead.

[Ron_Mexico 4,219]

I agree. Time at the tables and a genuine thirst for knowledge of the game will help make you a better player, as long as comprehension is a skill you have. My point, even though pointless, was that it seems everyone on here talks about how much they've one and how big a fish everyone else in the world seems to be. It's kind of like asking someone how big their tallywacker is. How many honest answers are you gonna get? Everyone is hung like a horse. How did I get off on this really gay tangent?

[pbwl11 0]

I first opened my account on Ultimate Bet last June (2004) with $75, and automatically started playing the $2/$4 tables, because that's what I play at the B&M. I found out very quickly that the quality of play online was much, much lower than the B&M.Due to a horrendous combonation of suckouts by fishes (besides the fact that I realize now I was a bit fishy myself!) :oops: , bad playing on my part due to the fact that I hadn't really studied the game back then, mostly just what I saw on tv, and chasing way, way to much, my bankroll dropped from $75 to about $15 in about a month! :shock: That's when I decided to start taking this game more seriously, and bought the books, (Winning Low Limit Holdem, Small Stakes Holdem, Theory Of Poker, et al), find some poker websites (Carplayer.com, 2+2, and, of course, this website run by our gracious host (Thanks, Daniel!).Anyway, my play has improved 1000%. I'm smarter, more patient, aggressive when the situation warrants, understand the mathematics behind the game, better about bankroll management both online and live (My online roll has gone from that $15 up to almost $750 playing .05/.10 moving up to 1/2, and my live roll started at $500 Jan 1, playing 2/4 (lowest limit at casino), and is now $1700.So, if some out of control fish like me can learn the ways of the poker player, there's hope for everyone out there. lol. :dance: So, I would like to thank the forum for their advice, expertise, and thoughts on all things poker, as well as keeping me entertained with some of the flaming that goes on. Truly hilarious. :clap:

[john kane 0]

just to let you know, a gift from the heavens came to me tonight. nothing amazing, but hey. having been playing a fair bit the past few days, still to no profit (although no loss either, picked up about $80 yesterday which was at least some revival). today i was playing 1-2NL 2 tables short handed, was about evens. then i switched to try some heads up NL cash rather than a sit and go heads up. i play a 50 buck buy in, the other guy has $78. i think he must be not bad as hes up. i lose the 50 bucks. he made a few massive overraises all in and that may of got me a bit annoyed. hand was me with AQ raised on button. flop comes 44A (you can guess already). he bets small, i raise, he reraises all in.....yes, fool me, i call. i suppose it was that he had made the moves more often than odds would suggest he had a great hand so i thought he may have a weaker ace. he had 46. it was the way he was pushing all in i think just wound me up a little. i knew a few of them must of been steals and some genuine. a call due to frustration rather than poker logic.so now im thinking what can i do. i cant hack this much longer. ive always been played well but cant win, and ive just played a heads up where for the first time in ages i showed impatience. this isnt good. so what do i do? i scroll down and see a 2-4NL heads up guy sitting on $300. i sit down with the table maximum of $400. in the first 3 hands we both show we are willing to be aggressive. im down $20. hand 4 - i pick up AJ on the button. i min raise to 8. he calls. flop JJ10, two clubs. he checks, i 'weak bet' 6. he raises me to 25. i think for a short while, and then push all in to put him in for another 290 odd! i thought id use the same overraising strategy that beat me in the $50 buy in. in hindsight, i should of only been getting called by a better hand (J10 or 10 10). he pauses a short while and calls. turn A. river rag. he mucks. i win $295 ish in 4 hands. oh yes oh yes oh yes! maybe i laid a massive beat on him, but the way he paused i think he had JK or JQ, or even flush draw.either way, i went back to the guy id lost the $50 to. i was up $20 then swung down to down $20 and left the table. net up $230. not a great amount. but for the first time since monday, i can be pleased with the days dollar result and actually feel confident with poker again (i hope). the way i played the hands described may not be good play at all. but it was just so good to finally hit a good hand, take down a decent pot with being bad beaten. the relief is big. okay, it was just one hand. but its what its done mentally which has helped a lot.it makes me feel odd writing this as ive always insisted i play a decent sound tight game, and the 2 heads up hands is against my general poker theory, but impatience and frustration clouded my judgement, sometihing which i thought would never happen to me again(last time must of been in 2004). yet i know i can play the hands perfectly, and it was the confidence ive been needing to settle my mind, which i think winning the $230 has hopefully achieved.good luck alljohn

[711Buddha 0]

Its a game of patience. Not just in hand selection, but in waiting for the odds to catch up to you.