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Kobe is flat out better, and considering I hate Kobe and his team I'm not tossing that out there lightly. I'd say so is KG, and I'd toss in some names like Chris Paul and probably Duncan when healthy though he seems to be slowing down a little. Big men don't get the consideration they deserve when talking about the best players because they don't make as many high light reel plays as guards/small forwards.Also, you're making a huge leap of faith that he goes through his career without any major injuries. He could just as easily be three seasons away from being the next Grant Hill.Also, I was just looking at shot charts, Lebron can't shoot for crap from 12-18 feet or on the right hand side of the court. See for yourself
he also has no post up game nor anything resembling pau gasol and yet he is leading the league in scoring by over 2 points in a half court offense and shooting nearly 50% (which kobe isn't)he had his 7th triple double tonight and he gets better every yearyou still ignore how bad his teammates have been and boy are they awful - not to mention tonight wallace ilgauskus pavlocheck and gibson were out injuredlook at film of how scrawny MJ was back during his 63 point celtic game (a loss) michael wasn't a finished product then eitheryou're standards are absurdwait until lebron adds a post up game and a mid range game one summer he'll be unstoppable
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You didn't finish college, what's he supposed to think?

I remember Jalen Rose talking about taking money once. Like, people become outraged and act like it's a bunch of greedy assholes ruining the integrity of the game, but even if you have a problem with

LBJ > MJ

Top 3 players right now are (imo):1. Kobe2. Lebron3. KGYou could easily switch the 2 and 3 spots. The only reason I put Lebron at 2 is because he did take a crappy Cavs team to the finals. Of course, that argument is likely flawed, since KG was in a much tougher conference most of his career.With that being said, I truly believe that Lebron has potential to be the greatest player to ever grace the court.

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you swap lebron for jordan in his prime ( pick a prime) and they are still likely to get swept by the spurs, and would be a huge dog in the series.
I agree. Or if you replace Kobe with Lebron.I've said this before. If Lebron was with the Lakers now instead of Kobe, I think they would have the same record. If Kobe was with the Cavs instead of Lebron, I think the Cavs would have a worse record than they currently do. I do not think Kobe would be able to rise up with a team full of nobodies (though I do love Damon, Boobie, and Sasha).How about his triple double tonight? Pretty sweet.
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The best thing that can happen to the Cavs would be Wallace having a career ending back problem. He's truly a huge liability on the court right now including the defensive end of the floor.They really need to have Joe Smith play the 30 minutes per game and Wallace play the 18 at most and once Ilgauskis is back he shouldn't even be in the rotation.

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The best thing that can happen to the Cavs would be Wallace having a career ending back problem. He's truly a huge liability on the court right now including the defensive end of the floor.They really need to have Joe Smith play the 30 minutes per game and Wallace play the 18 at most and once Ilgauskis is back he shouldn't even be in the rotation.
Not even +1. This is like +100000.The only player that I am currently happy with from the trade is Joe Smith. He is playing great. His mid range shot is good and his rebounds, especially offensive, are great. Ben Wallace missed an easy ass dunk today, but luckily Delonte got the rebound and made the 3. Also at the beginning of the game Cavs were down 10 and Ben missed two at the line.When Z, Sasha, and Boobie are back, the Cavs will be tough. Sasha is supposed to come back later this week.
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Not even +1. This is like +100000.The only player that I am currently happy with from the trade is Joe Smith. He is playing great. His mid range shot is good and his rebounds, especially offensive, are great. Ben Wallace missed an easy ass dunk today, but luckily Delonte got the rebound and made the 3. Also at the beginning of the game Cavs were down 10 and Ben missed two at the line.When Z, Sasha, and Boobie are back, the Cavs will be tough. Sasha is supposed to come back later this week.
Joe Smith was really the only player on the Bulls to play consistently throughout the year prior to the trade. He was the best player you got in that trade.Lebron is a jump shot away from making the game unfair.
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Not even +1. This is like +100000.The only player that I am currently happy with from the trade is Joe Smith. He is playing great. His mid range shot is good and his rebounds, especially offensive, are great. Ben Wallace missed an easy ass dunk today, but luckily Delonte got the rebound and made the 3. Also at the beginning of the game Cavs were down 10 and Ben missed two at the line.When Z, Sasha, and Boobie are back, the Cavs will be tough. Sasha is supposed to come back later this week.
With Wallace don't focus on his offense, it's always been totally horrible and it means your team is playing 4 on 5. What's happening now is that his defense is just flat out bad as well. He makes really poor decisions and gambles too much.
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Joe Smith was really the only player on the Bulls to play consistently throughout the year prior to the trade. He was the best player you got in that trade.Lebron is a jump shot away from making the game unfair.
while I agree in theory that Smith is the best player they got, I still think Wally world will have the most impact. First and foremost, the Cavs needed a guy who will knock down the open shots Lebron creates. Wally will do that all day and night.
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while I agree in theory that Smith is the best player they got, I still think Wally world will have the most impact. First and foremost, the Cavs needed a guy who will knock down the open shots Lebron creates. Wally will do that all day and night.
he hasn't so farcavs players are often heard to complain about being tooo wide open
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you still ignore how bad his teammates have been and boy are they awful - not to mention tonight wallace ilgauskus pavlocheck and gibson were out injuredlook at film of how scrawny MJ was back during his 63 point celtic game (a loss) michael wasn't a finished product then eitheryou're standards are absurdwait until lebron adds a post up game and a mid range game one summer he'll be unstoppable
Your right, his teammates are terrible, Gibson being in the top 3 of 3point shooting % is a joke, how can you play with that guy. :club: You guys downplay his teammates as much as you can, but they wouldn't be in the NBA if they were nearly as bad as you all make them out to be.Thanks for making my point though, that you guys saying he is the best now or ever is ridiculous, because he is an unfinished product. He isn't the best now, he isn't the best ever, he has severe weaknesses in his game that get overlooked because he makes the highlight reels with a nice dunk every night and once in a while hits a key 3 even though it's usually when he has gone 2 for 7 from 3 point range. He can't pull up for a jumper when going right, he can't shoot from outside of 12 feet with any consistency, he has no post game for a forward which is silly considering how much stronger he is than the average 3 in the league, and he doesn't know how to play without the ball in his hands. Kobe has a post up game, a much better jumper from everywhere on the court, can shoot off the dribble going either direction and can play off his teammates far better than LeBron can and is a better on the ball and team defender.
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Kobe has a post up game, a much better jumper from everywhere on the court, can shoot off the dribble going either direction and can play off his teammates far better than LeBron can and is a better on the ball and team defender.
I love you.
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He can't pull up for a jumper when going right, he can't shoot from outside of 12 feet with any consistency, he has no post game for a forward which is silly considering how much stronger he is than the average 3 in the league, and he doesn't know how to play without the ball in his hands. Kobe has a post up game, a much better jumper from everywhere on the court, can shoot off the dribble going either direction and can play off his teammates far better than LeBron can and is a better on the ball and team defender.
In 1988, Michael Jordan didn't have a jump shot and he had yet to have bulked up - was he still the best player in basketball - yesGeorge Mikan didn't have that much skill he was just a big tall guy - but he was still the best player in basketballYou can whine about how Wilt Chamberlain scored so many points just because he was a tall guy but he was still the best player in basketballThe best player in the game isn't the most complete player in the game he's the one who dominates the mostLebron's teammates aren't that bad - they're in the NBA! That's just absurd the difference between the top 30 percent in the nba and the bottom 30 percent in the NBA is hugDaniel Gibson isn't that good - the fact that he can actually occassionally make a wide open three has made him the most overpraised 2nd round draft pick of all timeThe Cavs often play two guys together that are 50-50 to make a layup - Ben and Anderson# of Cavs who can create their own shot besides Lebron - ZERO and that's what the NBA is all about how many players do you have that need to be double teamedwith anderson and Ben on the floor teams can triple team lebron and barely pay for itI once went to a Cavs game and watched Chris Dudley work on a 5 foot jump hook alone before the game and he was maybe 1-20Offensively almost every cavalier besides Lebron and Z is that badZ has skills but once the ball goes to him it never comes back out - he either shoots or turns it over Everybody was all like Dwayne Wade has a ring! Well I know Dwayne was hurt this year but look how horrid the Heat were this year now that he has no one to helpThe Cavs are 0-7 this year without Lebron - and they didn't come close to winning any of those gamesCavs vs Lakers last 5 games Cavs 5 Lakers 0Imagine Lebron with Pau Gasol and Lamar Odom and Derek Fisher = he'd be averaging 35 points and 15 assists a game
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while I agree in theory that Smith is the best player they got, I still think Wally world will have the most impact. First and foremost, the Cavs needed a guy who will knock down the open shots Lebron creates. Wally will do that all day and night.
But he hasn't. He has been worse than Larry lately. Yesterday I was at the game and when he missed I heard a soft "Larry Hughes" chant.I would love see Lebron, Damon, Boobie, Sasha, and Wally in at the same time. Not to much size, but when the Cavs are on offense it will either be a Lebron dunk or a 3.
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I hate, HATE, Kobe. But he is better than Lebron right now.Jordan v. Lebron is a terrible arguement. You are talking about the greates player in NBA history vs. a 5 year player. Give Lebron another 5 years, then we can have that discussion.

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Discussing it is what's fun - anyone can say who was better 15 years from now - I used to be the one pimping Jordan to the Larry Bird and Magic people - he ain't never won nothingIt would take an insane amount of brilliant games for me to ever say anyone is better than jordan but i wonder if you guys remember or know how skinny and less developed he was when he came into the league

look at those clips of him dropping 63 points against Boston and not winningpeople used to all say the same thingsScoring titles don't mean championships in fact they impede them - Bill Cartwright: "He's amazing but it isn't basketball" - he's just highlight reel fodder - after all he pretty much launched the highlight film industry on ESPN - he's too into selling thingskobe was a stick figure when he came into the league - Lebron at 23 vs Kobe at 23 is no contest Lebron has been better at his age than kobe every single year so farPhsyically there has never been a basketball player with his skillsThe only question is his will to win which Jordan was unmatched by except maybe by Larry Bird and Kobe is up there too - I think Lebron is showing signs of that too - two years ago they were saying that he couldn't take over in the fourth quarter and then that Pistons game and this year he is leading the league in 4th quarter scoringjust because you like kobe as a player and I do (except he has ego issues that Lebron definitely doesn't seem to have) doesn't mean you have to hate on LebronHow many MVP's spent the first half of their MVP season pouting - it's amazing how much better of a teammate he became after the Gasol trade
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Imagine Lebron with Pau Gasol and Lamar Odom and Derek Fisher = he'd be averaging 35 points and 15 assists a game
No he wouldn't cause he wouldn't have the ball as much, and he would have no idea how to play off the ball because he isn't used to doing it. I'm not saying he can't learn, but Kobe has experience playing without the ball and being effective.LOL at Gibson "occasionally" making a 3, top 3 in % in the league but I guess that's a fluke right. How is that occasional? You guys are on Lebrons nuts so hard you rip apart his teammates at any cost to make him look better. Sasha is a pretty solid player too, I think he's been hurt this year (I don't recall him playing in the Cav's games I have seen) but last year in the playoffs the guy was making some really impressive plays. He reminded me of Ginobli during his early days in the league.And back to my point about big men, Duncan and Shaq are responsible for 8 of the last 9 NBA titles and the other title team had a versatile big man in Rasheed Wallace. In fact the only teams to win the title without dominant big men I can think of were Jordan's bulls, and if anyone says Cartwright was dominant in the 90's they need to share whatever drugs they are on.Kobe is by far the more complete player than Lebron. If you want to grab unpolished guy and call them the best why not toss Dwight Howard in there too. The guy scores a good amount, dunks on everyone, pulls down boards at an alarming rate and blocks a ton of shots and everyone has to adjust their offense to the guy. Just because he doesn't hit game winning three's he gets no love? I heard Stephon Maurbury was going to be the greatest PG of all time before he even played college ball... how did that work out?LeBron is still developing, you said it yourself, give him 5 years and let him see if he actually accomplishes anything before you give him some make believe crown. Right now he isn't in the 100 best players all time, because he hasn't been around long enough to even be considered.You want someone to compare him to, try Oscar Robertson. Holla at me when Lebron racks up a triple double season... and don't complain about unfair comparisons, you want to call him the best then I'm going to put the best up against him. And you want to talk about Jordan in 88... when he was MVP, All Star MVP and Defensive Player of the Year while leading the league in scoring... man you Cav's fans must still be jaded about Craig Ehlo of whatever his name was.
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just because you like kobe as a player and I do (except he has ego issues that Lebron definitely doesn't seem to have) doesn't mean you have to hate on LebronHow many MVP's spent the first half of their MVP season pouting - it's amazing how much better of a teammate he became after the Gasol trade
I hate Kobe, read the Laker thread for evidence.Lebron has been a pouty bitch too. Walking off the court before the game is over, not going back on D with his teammates. Earlier this season before the trade pouting on the end of the bench... get over yourself he is no better than Kobe at anything except not getting busted on booty calls in Denver.
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do you realize that in the next week Lebron will be the all time leading scoring in Cavaliers historyComparing him to stephon marbury in high school is absurdwhether the east sucks or not he still is the only player in cavs history to lead them to a finals something a team with Mark Price Brad Daugherty and Larry Nance couldn't dohe's still averaging 30-8-8 that's not a triple double but he plays for a slow it down offense - do you realize how many more shots a game were taken when Oscar averaged a triple double - tons - that's more assists and more reboundsSasha hasn't played at all this year and during the playoffs my friend who is a laker fan couldn't believe how awful Sasha was in the playoffs - his contribution in the pistons and spurs series was ZEROWho is Lebron supposed to give the ball to right now - Gibson is hurt and they have both Anderson Verrajo and Ben Wallace on the floorCraig Hodges would average over 30 points a game on this team!Lebron loses at least four assists a night from players who can't make layups!And he looked lost playing with all those good players in the last two all star games and the national team - Look how old michael jordan was when he won his first playoff series - much less championshipIf you want to see some historic ass kickings check out the first two years the bulls played the pistons - they didn't just lose like the Cavs did to San Antonio - they were physically brutalized - there was one game where michael was so frustrated that he refused to shoot for most of the gameits why he started lifting weightshe's clearly already in the top 100 players in the game - how many players in NBA history have averaged anything close to 30 -8- 8?when they made that 50 greatest list in the late 80s a lot of those guys had only been in the league for about 5 years and Shaq was on it after maybe one or two years in the leaguehow many players in history have had a playoff game like that one against the pistons

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i botched that the list came out in 1997 and shaq is on it - without any titles and after getting swept in a finals he only got to go to because michael spent most of the year playing baseball - after only 5 yearsscottie pippin is also on the list and the flaws people listed about him around year five were humungous - and i love scottie you're telling me that Lebron hasn't even achieved Nate Archibald status yet?

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But why? If he didn't have one 81 point game two years ago, would most people still say this.
Yea, that's all he's done.You know he's also had 4 games where he's had 56 or more after 3 quarters and sat out the 4th quarter. I mean the guy should have five 70-point games.
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