Lebron James

[chgocubs99 0]

No he wouldn't cause he wouldn't have the ball as much, and he would have no idea how to play off the ball because he isn't used to doing it. I'm not saying he can't learn, but Kobe has experience playing without the ball and being effective.LOL at Gibson "occasionally" making a 3, top 3 in % in the league but I guess that's a fluke right. How is that occasional? You guys are on Lebrons nuts so hard you rip apart his teammates at any cost to make him look better. Sasha is a pretty solid player too, I think he's been hurt this year (I don't recall him playing in the Cav's games I have seen) but last year in the playoffs the guy was making some really impressive plays. He reminded me of Ginobli during his early days in the league.And back to my point about big men, Duncan and Shaq are responsible for 8 of the last 9 NBA titles and the other title team had a versatile big man in Rasheed Wallace. In fact the only teams to win the title without dominant big men I can think of were Jordan's bulls, and if anyone says Cartwright was dominant in the 90's they need to share whatever drugs they are on.Kobe is by far the more complete player than Lebron. If you want to grab unpolished guy and call them the best why not toss Dwight Howard in there too. The guy scores a good amount, dunks on everyone, pulls down boards at an alarming rate and blocks a ton of shots and everyone has to adjust their offense to the guy. Just because he doesn't hit game winning three's he gets no love? I heard Stephon Maurbury was going to be the greatest PG of all time before he even played college ball... how did that work out?LeBron is still developing, you said it yourself, give him 5 years and let him see if he actually accomplishes anything before you give him some make believe crown. Right now he isn't in the 100 best players all time, because he hasn't been around long enough to even be considered.You want someone to compare him to, try Oscar Robertson. Holla at me when Lebron racks up a triple double season... and don't complain about unfair comparisons, you want to call him the best then I'm going to put the best up against him. And you want to talk about Jordan in 88... when he was MVP, All Star MVP and Defensive Player of the Year while leading the league in scoring... man you Cav's fans must still be jaded about Craig Ehlo of whatever his name was.

I'm not going to reply to this all right now because I have to go to work, but needless to say most of it is twisting facts around and some of it is flat out incorrect. The fact that Kobe has a more consistent jumper than Lebron is outweighed massively by the ferocity that Lebron attacks the rim with. When you have a guy like that, what do you tell him? Attack the basket. And he does, and he should. When he loses that explosiveness (which won't happen probably until he's around 30), he WILL turn into a post up player and jump shooter. No, I'm not 100% certain because I can't predict the future. But have you seen some of the plays he makes. I saw him throw down a dunk getting his head above the rim from 12 feet away against the Bulls last week, then the next play down cross someone over, stop on a dime, and swish a 20 foot fadeaway with a hand right in his eye. They was the most unstoppable back to back plays I've seen in my life.Other cliff notes, now you are going to make me late for work--Keith is dead on about no one on the Cavs being able to get their own shot AND about Lebron with Odom, Fisher, and Gasol--LOL @ Marbury not having a solid NBA career. I love when people say that stuff. Christian Laettner was a big failure too, right?--Dwight Howard is either the third or fourth best player in the game behind Kobe and Lebron, depending on where you want to rank Chris Paul

[TrueAce13 18]

I haven't read the whole thread, so if I repeat, sorry. Kobe is not a better player than Lebron. If it wasn't for Shaq, Kobe would not have three rings. After running the whole Lakers organization, he got his wish and was the man of the town. Missed the playoffs. Now, that he has a team around him, everyone is saying he is the best in the game.Lebron took his team to the finals last year with who?! Seriously, he took over the team, took over games...but wait, he was only 22! Lebron didn't have Shaq, Kobe did. Lebron has improved his jump shot and improved his defense. Everyone wants to say, "you only think he is the best from the highlight reel" but if you watch him game in and game out, you will see why he is better than Kobe No other player is averaging numbers like Lebron is 25 pts, 8 rebs, 7, assist. per game is just unheard of---Ohhhh wait Lebron is doing that. Kobe can pass the ball, right?!

[Jadaki 0]

I'm not going to reply to this all right now because I have to go to work, but needless to say most of it is twisting facts around and some of it is flat out incorrect. The fact that Kobe has a more consistent jumper than Lebron is outweighed massively by the ferocity that Lebron attacks the rim with. When you have a guy like that, what do you tell him? Attack the basket.

Did you guys just start watching basketball in the last three years? Kobe can attack and finish at the rim as well as anyone in the game. Dwight Howard attacks the rim with more ferocity than Lebron does but he isn't a ball handler. The reason he isn't shooting outside much is because Lebrons jumper is garbage. Look at the shot chat for the season I posted a link to earlier, there was one section of the floor where he was over 30% for the season. Thats a joke for a guy that handles the ball and takes as many shots as he does.

When he loses that explosiveness (which won't happen probably until he's around 30), he WILL turn into a post up player and jump shooter. No, I'm not 100% certain because I can't predict the future. But have you seen some of the plays he makes. I saw him throw down a dunk getting his head above the rim from 12 feet away against the Bulls last week, then the next play down cross someone over, stop on a dime, and swish a 20 foot fadeaway with a hand right in his eye. They was the most unstoppable back to back plays I've seen in my life.

You don't know that he will, he could blow out his ACL next week attacking the rim and never fully recover. If those were the two most amazing back to back plays you have ever seen you must not have watching any basketball in the last 30 years.

Other cliff notes, now you are going to make me late for work--Keith is dead on about no one on the Cavs being able to get their own shot AND about Lebron with Odom, Fisher, and Gasol--LOL @ Marbury not having a solid NBA career. I love when people say that stuff. Christian Laettner was a big failure too, right?--Dwight Howard is either the third or fourth best player in the game behind Kobe and Lebron, depending on where you want to rank Chris Paul

Maurbury never lived up to the hype he had coming into the league. And Christian Laettner was a pathetic NBA player.Lebron doesn't know how to play without the ball effectively. He has always been the guy with it in his hands, watch him try to run off a screen sometime and compare it to a guy like Rip or Allen, his off the ball movement is pathetic in the 1/2 court.Your wrong about Howard, he doesn't have enough post moves and a face up game to be better than Duncan, KG, Boozer, etc...

Lebron took his team to the finals last year with who?! Seriously, he took over the team, took over games...but wait, he was only 22! Lebron didn't have Shaq, Kobe did.

In the West last year the Cavs may not have even made the playoffs at best they would have been around a 7 seed and out in the first round at best. Lebron took his team to the finals through the JV conference, as proven by then getting swept in the finals. All your facts are off, a quick trip to nba.com and looking at stats and shot charts will show you Lebron's perimeter game is a joke compared to Kobe's.

[chgocubs99 0]

Did you guys just start watching basketball in the last three years? Kobe can attack and finish at the rim as well as anyone in the game. Dwight Howard attacks the rim with more ferocity than Lebron does but he isn't a ball handler. The reason he isn't shooting outside much is because Lebrons jumper is garbage. Look at the shot chat for the season I posted a link to earlier, there was one section of the floor where he was over 30% for the season. Thats a joke for a guy that handles the ball and takes as many shots as he does.You don't know that he will, he could blow out his ACL next week attacking the rim and never fully recover. If those were the two most amazing back to back plays you have ever seen you must not have watching any basketball in the last 30 years.Maurbury never lived up to the hype he had coming into the league. And Christian Laettner was a pathetic NBA player.Lebron doesn't know how to play without the ball effectively. He has always been the guy with it in his hands, watch him try to run off a screen sometime and compare it to a guy like Rip or Allen, his off the ball movement is pathetic in the 1/2 court.Your wrong about Howard, he doesn't have enough post moves and a face up game to be better than Duncan, KG, Boozer, etc... In the West last year the Cavs may not have even made the playoffs at best they would have been around a 7 seed and out in the first round at best. Lebron took his team to the finals through the JV conference, as proven by then getting swept in the finals. All your facts are off, a quick trip to nba.com and looking at stats and shot charts will show you Lebron's perimeter game is a joke compared to Kobe's.

Obviously we have vastly differing viewpoints that are so far apart there is no point in debating them.But there is one thing you keep bringing up that is irrelevant...if you have a player on your team that can get to the rim any time he pleases, is there any reason you would want him settling for jump shots? Or would you tell him to attack? Basically, who cares if he can't shoot? That is a problem for the Eric Snow's of the world since Snow can't do anything else. And come on man, please watch tapes of Kobe and Lebron attacking the rim...it's not even a discussion.

[keith crime 8]

J you're like a guy criticizing Babe Ruth - all he does is hit home runs - he can't run he's can't hit to the opposite field - all he does is hit 380 and 60 home runsthat's enoughWhen Lebron has teammates he can play without the ball - he shot 70% in the olympic trials

[Jadaki 0]

J you're like a guy criticizing Babe Ruth - all he does is hit home runs - he can't run he's can't hit to the opposite field - all he does is hit 380 and 60 home runsthat's enoughWhen Lebron has teammates he can play without the ball - he shot 70% in the olympic trials

You think LeBron is Babe Ruth now.... this is my whole point, you guys are crowing him the king of the NBA when he has HUGE GLARING WEAKNESSES in his game that you can't even admit to, and aside from one stellar playoff game and good regular season stats he has not done a thing in this game. Get off his dick for 5 minutes and you would realize it. 70% in the Olympic trials means jack shit because he wasn't playing NBA quality talent every night, and he wasn't shooting to ball 25 times a game. Don't compare international rules basketball to the NBA, otherwise tskillz is going to come in here and tell you how Ginobli is the greatest player to ever live.

[Jadaki 0]

Obviously we have vastly differing viewpoints that are so far apart there is no point in debating them.But there is one thing you keep bringing up that is irrelevant...if you have a player on your team that can get to the rim any time he pleases, is there any reason you would want him settling for jump shots? Or would you tell him to attack? Basically, who cares if he can't shoot? That is a problem for the Eric Snow's of the world since Snow can't do anything else. And come on man, please watch tapes of Kobe and Lebron attacking the rim...it's not even a discussion.

Jesus, why have all the championship teams had big men on them for the last 30 years except Jordan's Bulls? You can't teach height, right now Lebron is no more than a more talented version of Dominique Wilkens, how many titles did his rim attacking get him?

[keith crime 8]

Jesus, why have all the championship teams had big men on them for the last 30 years except Jordan's Bulls? You can't teach height, right now Lebron is no more than a more talented version of Dominique Wilkens, how many titles did his rim attacking get him?

michael's got him sixDominique did pretty well actually considering how deep the nba was in his eraLebron didn't just have one stellar playoff game -- he lead a gigantic upset and had a galctic playoff gameFirst they said he didn't have killer instinct and couldn't finish - the dude is 23 - he's a much better player at 23 than MJ was - wait until he decides that he feels like posting up it's going to be sickA hurricane is coming and you keep saying it isn't raining yet - the only thing that can keep Lebron from his legacy is the cavs pathetic coaching and awful front officeMike Brown can't diagram a play to save his life

[Jadaki 0]

michael's got him sixDominique did pretty well actually considering how deep the nba was in his eraLebron didn't just have one stellar playoff game -- he lead a gigantic upset and had a galctic playoff gameFirst they said he didn't have killer instinct and couldn't finish - the dude is 23 - he's a much better player at 23 than MJ was - wait until he decides that he feels like posting up it's going to be sickA hurricane is coming and you keep saying it isn't raining yet - the only thing that can keep Lebron from his legacy is the cavs pathetic coaching and awful front officeMike Brown can't diagram a play to save his life

Jordan turned 23 in 1986, by then he had done the following.High SchoolAs a senior, he was selected to the McDonald's All-American Team after averaging a triple-double: 29.2 points, 11.6 rebounds, and 10.1 assists.College1982 ACC Freshman of the Year1982 NCAA Championship, hitting the game winning shot.1984 ACC Men's Basketball Player of the Year1984 USBWA College Player of the Year1984 Naismith College Player of the Year1986 Completed his Degree from UNCNBA1985 Rookie of the Year (averaged 28.2 ppg on 51.5% shooting)1986 (missed 64 games with a broken foot)Just to remind you, though of what would have happened if he got to play that season...In 1987 He was the only player besides Wilt Chamberlain to achieve 3000 points in a season, averaging a league high 37.1 points on 48.2% shooting. He became the first player in NBA history to record 200 steals and 100 blocks in a season.In 88 he was MVP, All Star MVP, League Scoring Champ and Defensive Player of the Year.Yea, Jordan's resume was a joke at 23

[keith crime 8]

Jordan turned 23 in 1986, by then he had done the following.High SchoolAs a senior, he was selected to the McDonald's All-American Team after averaging a triple-double: 29.2 points, 11.6 rebounds, and 10.1 assists.College1982 ACC Freshman of the Year1982 NCAA Championship, hitting the game winning shot.1984 ACC Men's Basketball Player of the Year1984 USBWA College Player of the Year1984 Naismith College Player of the Year1986 Completed his Degree from UNCNBA1985 Rookie of the Year (averaged 28.2 ppg on 51.5% shooting)1986 (missed 64 games with a broken foot)Just to remind you, though of what would have happened if he got to play that season...In 1987 He was the only player besides Wilt Chamberlain to achieve 3000 points in a season, averaging a league high 37.1 points on 48.2% shooting. He became the first player in NBA history to record 200 steals and 100 blocks in a season.In 88 he was MVP, All Star MVP, League Scoring Champ and Defensive Player of the Year.Yea, Jordan's resume was a joke at 23

you're totally wrong here 1. i didn't say jordan at 23 was a joke just that lebron was better2. what he did in 87 and 88 is irrelevant that's after 23 plus even in the next 2 years he'd yet to win a single playoff series3. High School - Lebron was clearly better Jordan - making the McDonald's team is nothing compared to Lebron who would have been the first pick in the NBA draft as a soph in hs4. Averaging 27 points a game as a pro is more impressive then Jordans college career - Jordan was only the third pick in the draft and sure he hit the game winner in the NCAA final but that was James Worthy's team and also had Sam Perkins 5. Who cares that he completed his degree - i have a degree i'd rather have Lebron's cash6. Anyone who watched them both would choose Lebron a 6'9" 260 over a skinny jordan - Jordan's game had holes in it at 23 too changing the argument from me saying Lebron is better at 23 than Jordan to me saying Jordan was a joke at 23 is warping what I'm saying to help you prove your point and is dishonest - i never said Jordan was a joke - he's the greatest player ever but he had tons of detractors in 1986 . There were a million people saying that winning the scoring title was selfish and that no one could win both the scoring title and the NBA championship . I know I was there I was in Chicago from 1984-1989Lebron at 23 is about to become the Cavs all time leading scorer!!!!Plus Dominique won that slam dunk title - it was a hometown gift to Michael

[Jadaki 0]

you're totally wrong here

No, I'm not, and I'll explain in short yellow bus terms why...

1. i didn't say jordan at 23 was a joke just that lebron was better

Based on what? He doesn't score as much as Jordan did, he wasn't facing nearly as talented of a league as Jordan was which has been diluted through expansion.

2. what he did in 87 and 88 is irrelevant that's after 23 plus even in the next 2 years he'd yet to win a single playoff series

LeBron would not have a chance against any of the teams Jordan faced in his early years either, are you seriously telling me he would beat a Bird/Mchale/Parrish etc etc... Boston teams? Because that's who Jordan was facing. If you say yes you need to pass around whatever drugs you are on because we should all be in that type of mentally altered state.

3. High School - Lebron was clearly better Jordan - making the McDonald's team is nothing compared to Lebron who would have been the first pick in the NBA draft as a soph in hs

Jordan averaged a triple double (Lebron didn't even come close), and held the record for most points in the McDonalds game for over 20 years, how was Lebron better? Oh yea, in the early 80's going pro out of high school didn't happen. So where he was picked in the draft doesn't make him better, back then the draft was based on what you had done in college and not what pro scouts think you will be in 5 years because that is exactly what happens now.

4. Averaging 27 points a game as a pro is more impressive then Jordans college career - Jordan was only the third pick in the draft and sure he hit the game winner in the NCAA final but that was James Worthy's team and also had Sam Perkins

No it's not. A lot of players have put up 27ppg, not all of them have been or could be NCAA players of the year or have won a ring. Worthy left after that year and Jordan was the leader of the team. Or did you miss the multiple player of the year awards? 27 ppg in the NBA means jack shit, ask Allen Iverson if he would rather have a league scoring title or a NCAA championship ring from his days at Gtown. Just to be clear, Jordan has both... Lebron never will.

5. Who cares that he completed his degree - i have a degree i'd rather have Lebron's cash

Bwahahahaha are you serious. Jordan is the one that made it possible for Lebron to make the money he is now. You want to talk net worth between Jordan and LeBron? Jordan STILL sells more shoes than Lebron does and he has been retired for how long? Your talking about a guy who IS A LOGO compared to the next guy who wants to be him. There have been plenty, and there will be plenty more after Lebron.

6. Anyone who watched them both would choose Lebron a 6'9" 260 over a skinny jordan - Jordan's game had holes in it at 23 too

Jordan had a better killer instinct and a better jumper at 23 than Lebron. He also was a far superior defender or did you completely miss everything from my last post?

changing the argument from me saying Lebron is better at 23 than Jordan to me saying Jordan was a joke at 23 is warping what I'm saying to help you prove your point and is dishonest - i never said Jordan was a joke - he's the greatest player ever but he had tons of detractors in 1986 . There were a million people saying that winning the scoring title was selfish and that no one could win both the scoring title and the NBA championship . I know I was there I was in Chicago from 1984-1989Lebron at 23 is about to become the Cavs all time leading scorer!!!!Plus Dominique won that slam dunk title - it was a hometown gift to Michael

Maybe it's because your watching Lebron now and your memory has faded from 25 years ago, you know that happens with old age but anyone saying Lebron has accomplished more than Jordan at any point is silly.The only thing you can say is he got to the finals faster, and the simple and very factual response to that is if you compare the teams Lebron went through last year to any of the teams Jordan faced his first 8 years in the league you wouldn't be seeing Lebron get out of the first round either. There is no way he carries any team past the Cletics, 76'ers or Pistons teams that Jordan was facing. All of them are far superior to what is in the eastern conference last year. Lebron's trip to the finals has a much to do with the majority of the talent being in the west and expansion diluting the talent pool as his ability.By any common sense measurement Jordan was by far the more complete player at any age. Let me know when Lebron learns to play defense. When he gets defensive player of the year, leads the league in steals or even makes the all nba defensive first team. Also tell me when he has a 3k point season (Jordan was around 6 rpg and 6 apg during that season too) so spare me the selfishness factor. It's not going to happen unless he develops more ways to score other than driving to the hoop and shooting 30% from three.Go ahead and save this for two years, and rack up their pro accomplishments and compare them. Lebron is going to do what in the post season this year? Lose in the second round to the Celtics or Pistons. It's going to happen again the year after that, and in the mean time he puts up 30ppg for two years and maybe walks off the court a few more times during the game or cries like a bitch on the bench about his teammates sucking. What's going to be hilarious is you Cav's fans crying when he jumps ship and heads to NY/LA/Chicago.I can't believe you were in Chicago during that time and I'm the one thats having to set you straight on the facts. If you want to call Lebron the improved version of Dominique, one of the top ten players in the league today thats cool and I'll agree. When you saying he is better than the best guard/forward to ever play the game you are flat out wrong. We all understand why Cav's fans hate on Jordan, he embarrassed that entire franchise for years turning them into a personal highlight reel... they are still playing highlights of Jordan hitting that jumper of Ehlo. Just admit you hate on him for it and will do anything to elevate Clevelands hometown hero above him and we can move on. The rest of the world knows the truth, we can let you wear the dunce cap in the corner of the basketball world. You can even blame Cav's management and coaching all you want.

[keith crime 8]

1. I love Jordan whether he beat the cavs that year or not - i always rooted for him - but you ignore the fact that Jordan was totally maligned back in the day for many of the same things you malign lebron for2. I totally agree this cavs team would get wallopped by those Celtics and Pistons teams- although Lebron wouldn't have been as physically beaten up as Jordan was - Jordan was stick skinny and was so frustrated by being raped by the pistons that he bulked up - go back there was one game Michael was so frustrated with his teammates that he refused to shoot as if to say - you think i'm taking too many shots look at how bad these guys are - look it up i think he scored 13 points that game3. Patrick Ewing would have been the first pick in the NBA draft as a senior in HS - Michael wouldn't have been chosen in the top 20 - I remember looking at an old NCAA preview issue from that year and he was one of 20 promising freshman - he wasn't even seen as the top freshman that year4. Both Kobe and Garnett are great players who came into the NBA at 18 neither of their stats their first 5 years are anywhere close to Lebron's -- 5. Being complete is irrelevant - the most complete player isn't always the most dominant - do you think George Mikan was the most complete player in the 1950s? He definately was the most dominant6. I'm from Cleveland but that's irrelevant - honestly through the years I've lost the homer influence and I've gravitated towards just wanting to see the best players play the best players - I totally would rather see Lebron on a good team than carrying a bunch of crap - It's a total waste to see one of the greatest athletes I've ever seen who should be running the court stuck playing a half court offense run by a coach that has no offensive concept whatsoever - my guess is that even people from Minnesota are glad to see Garnett on a competitive team - the NBA would be by far the greatest sport in the world if they got rid of about 7 teamsIf the Cavs play Boston in this year's playoffs the cavs will win book it - I'll bet you $20 right now and I'm good for itBoth Jordan and Larry Bird were famous for adding something to their game each year - Lebron's defense is much better than when he came into the League and his jump shot is infinitely better - give the dude a breakJordan used to crush his teammates - they couldn't take the pressure - Scottie Pippen almost folded - had Pippen folded Jordan would still be ringless - that's irrefutable I'm being totally honest - I cry half the time I watch the Cavs - Lebron could be one of the greatest passers of all time, but he's stuck carrying that pile of crapHe was supposed to be the next Magic not the next Michael - sadly he's lacking Worthy, Jabbar, Wilkes, etc etc etc

[keith crime 8]

Fun Jordan Criticism from back in the dayBulls Center Bill Cartwright, for example, is memorably qoted as saying that Jordan is, "Maybe the greatest athelete ever to play any sport...He's just not a basketball player."At halftime of Game 2, with the Bulls trailing 53-38, Jordan walked into the quiet locker room, kicked over a chair, and yelled, "We're playing like a bunch of pussies!" Afterward, he refused to speak to reporters, boarded the bus, and sat in stony silence all the way home. He continued his silence -- other than a few sharp postgame statements -- for the next week. He would not comment on his teammates. "I'll let them stand up and take responsibility for themselves," he told a friend. But the Pistons get their shots back at Jordan. They love to taunt Jordan during games about his selfish play, his baldness (that's a specialty of John Salley), and how he enjoys being a loser. Salley, a bad stand-up comic who has earned a stage because he is seven feet tall and looks like Arsenio Hall, is a particularly bitter antagonist. "There's not one guy who sets the tone on our team," Salley liked to tell reporters during the 1990 playoffs. "That's what makes us a team. If one guy did everything, we wouldn't be a team. We'd be the Chicago Bulls." And this, too, from Salley: "We don't care who scores the points as long as we win. It would be hard for Michael Jordan to play on this team because he's got to score all the points. I don't think he'd fit in here." Jordan burned over comments like that, but he seemed helpless to pay back the Pistons. Jordan was perhaps the league's best when angered, dunking over seven-footers after they'd blocked his shot, scoring wildly against boastful rookies, and surging to great heights when opponents scored on him regularly or tried to show him up, But Jordan couldn't make it happen against the Pistons, and his teammates were unable to ease the burden he felt. In Game 1, John Paxson and Craig Hodges missed all 8 of their field-goal attempts and Scottie Pippen was thwarted by Rodman. "I seem to spend too much time worrying about how he's going to play me," Pippen would say later. Among Detroit starters, only Joe Dumars would score in double 27 points, but it would be enough. In Game 2, Jordan limped on his injured hip and leg, and the Bulls fell. Pippen and Horace Grant scored 17 each, but it was hardly enough to make up for the ailing Jordan, who scored only 20. Dumars scored 31. And so Jordan left the game without speaking to anyone, leaving the media scrambling for reasons and teammates searching for answers. It was not a happy group that headed back to Chicago for Game 3. Jordan believed his team had let him down when he was hurt. The team believed he'd let them down by failing to face the media after such a critical loss. Sure, several noted, he was there long into the night after he scored 50 points, but where was he when he scored only 20? And his man, Dumars, burned him in two straight games, and had clearly been the difference in Detroit's taking a 2-0 lead. The players agreed: We hear it from him when we don't play well, but when he doesn't play well it's still our fault? Center Dave Corzine, a former Bull, had once explained it well: "It's hard playing on a team with Michael because you're always the reason the team lost." It certainly couldn't be Jordan's fault, everyone usually agreed; he was the best, wasn't he? There was not much anyone on the team could say publicly. But the Bulls would go no farther. As Jordan feared, even suspected, his teammates disappeared. Paxson tried, but couldn't go. His ankle was too sore and swollen, and he would need surgery in a week. Hodges, rusty from months of virtual inactivity, couldn't sustain his effort for two games and shot 3 for 13, 2 for 12 on three-pointers. His big, toothy smile was gone and he'd soon be contemplating his feet. It wasn't much of a game. The Pistons hit 9 straight shots in the second quarter while the Bulls went 2 of 12. The score was 48-33 at halftime and the game was over. The score was 61-39 in the third quarter, and even though the Bulls closed the gap to 10 after three quarters, they never had a chance. Scottie Pippen was 1 of 10 for 2 points. Stricken by a migraine headache, he was blinking his eyes madly before the game and putting an ice pack on his head during time-outs. He played forty-two minutes, but could barely distinguish his teammates from the Pistons. He broke down and drowned himself in tears in the locker room afterward. Grant was ferocious on the boards, pulling down more rebounds than the entire Detroit team and grabbing a game-high 14 overall, but he shot 3 of 17. Cartwright had worn down and would need knee surgery, and Hodge also would go under the knife. The rookies were deadly -- B. J. Armstrong flew out of control in front of the crowd and was 1 of 8. The Pistons' bench outscored the Bulls 33-21, as Mark Aguirre had 15 points and 10 rebounds and John Salley had 14 points. Thomas was brilliant in orchestrating the Pistons' break with 21 points and 11 assists. "They may have the best player, but we have the better team," noted Laimbeer, the mockery in his voice scratching at Chicagoans like fingernails on a chalkboard. Jordan was left to consider the 93-74 loss. He agreed Detroit was better. The Bulls had to get better. He wasn't general manager, but if he were...It was obvious the team needed veterans. But he wasn't just slapping at the rookies. Where was Pippen? This was the second straight year he'd vanished in the last game against the Pistons; he'd received a concussion in the first minute of the final conference playoff game in 1989. Were he and his buddy, Grant, serious enough? Paxson had broken down and the other guys hadn't done much. Jordan had scored 31 points, 21 more than anyone else, but he'd also attempted 27 shots. And many were wondering how the Bulls were ever going to win if he was to continue to shoot at that pace.

[Jadaki 0]

You realize that second post pretty much sides with me, he had zero teammates for a long time.I think your confusing my criticism of Lebron with what people said about Jordan. My problem is that you guys are giving him a crown as king of the NBA when there are clearly more complete and dominant players playing right now, let alone comparing him to Jordan which is a joke. If Jordan didn't go through the hazing he did as a rookie, or players like Kobe and KG coming out of HS and being successful (also neither of them were starters right away), Lebron never would have been a #1 pick either. If the draft in the 80's was done the same way it is today Jordan would have been a top pick, his high school numbers are superior to Lebrons in every area. The strategy for drafting was completely different and you know it.As for who is dominant, comparing the 50's isn't relevant to today's NBA other than if you want to point out the most dominant teams are filled with skilled big men. And you keep harping on Jordan being skinny, the guy was 6'6 and ridiculously athletic. He was matching up other 2 guards, not small forwards like Lebron is. We're all (hopefully) aware of the steps Jordan had to go through to overcome the teams he was facing. Lebron hasn't had one of those challenges yet. He has never faced a team full of hall of fame talent whose sole focus is shutting him down. Your on for the Cavs/Celtics. KG is on a mission this year.

[El Guapo 8]

I don't want to get into specifics of your posts, but how can you say with a straight face that anyone would take Lebron of Jordan.I bet if you polled every GM you would have them all say Jordan and probably every NBA player, owner and coach

[keith crime 8]

Your on for the Cavs/Celtics. KG is on a mission this year.

ok 20 dollars if they play heads up - i'm giving away edge but they'll win Clearly teams were deeper in the mid to late 80s so i can't really prove my pointYou can't deny though that body wise lebron vs garnet or kobe at 18 and up is no contest Kobe at 18 wasn't nearly ready for the NBALebron was clearly the best high school player in the country both as a junior and senior Maybe things have changed but Michael was the third player chosen in the draft coming out of college as a junior - you can't argue that he would have been higher coming out of high schoolLebron was chosen first ahead of Carmelo Wade etc and unlike Garnet who was chosen for what he would become - no player in the history of the game was ready for the NBA at 18 quite like Lebron - you have to at least give me that!Lebron averaged 20 pts 5.5 assts and 6 rbds in the NBA at 18Jordan averaged 13 , 2 and 4 in collegeare you really going to try to argue that michael was better at 18?

[El Guapo 8]

When did this turn into who was better at 18?

[keith crime 8]

I don't want to get into specifics of your posts, but how can you say with a straight face that anyone would take Lebron of Jordan.I bet if you polled every GM you would have them all say Jordan and probably every NBA player, owner and coach

i never said that - although coming out of high school - no one alive would have chosen michael over lebronhaving thought about it michael at 23 vs lebron at 23 I think i'd probably take michael but it's closer than i would have ever thought possible in 1987Michael was Michael because of athletic talent and an insane drive to be the bestI think Lebron clearly has michael topped athletically - we'll see how driven he is - my guess is that the first step he'll take in proving it is blowing off the cavs after two more years of not putting anything respectable next to himthe sad thing about the recent trades is they make the cavs better now and worse in two years

[FCP Bob 1,312]

the sad thing about the recent trades is they make the cavs no better now and worse in two years

FYP

[keith crime 8]

probably but i can hope can't i?

[Jadaki 0]

ok 20 dollars if they play heads up - i'm giving away edge but they'll win Clearly teams were deeper in the mid to late 80s so i can't really prove my pointYou can't deny though that body wise lebron vs garnet or kobe at 18 and up is no contest Kobe at 18 wasn't nearly ready for the NBALebron was clearly the best high school player in the country both as a junior and senior Maybe things have changed but Michael was the third player chosen in the draft coming out of college as a junior - you can't argue that he would have been higher coming out of high schoolLebron was chosen first ahead of Carmelo Wade etc and unlike Garnet who was chosen for what he would become - no player in the history of the game was ready for the NBA at 18 quite like Lebron - you have to at least give me that!Lebron averaged 20 pts 5.5 assts and 6 rbds in the NBA at 18Jordan averaged 13 , 2 and 4 in collegeare you really going to try to argue that michael was better at 18?

I agree on Lebron being more NBA ready than Kobe or KG was coming out of HS. My point about where Jordan was drafted has more to do with how teams approach the lottery today compared to what they did when Michael was drafted. Michaels HS numbers are superior to Lebrons in every stat, if the NBA scouted HS players then like it does now they would have been on his nuts.If Lebron played for Dean Smith, his numbers would have been no better than MJ's at UNC. You have heard the joke about who was the last guy to hold MJ under 20 points.... Dean Smith.

[Vinnie_Terranova 5]

Lebron got there earlier than anyone. Its only how long will he stay and how many titles will he win while he is there.

[keith crime 8]

I agree on Lebron being more NBA ready than Kobe or KG was coming out of HS. My point about where Jordan was drafted has more to do with how teams approach the lottery today compared to what they did when Michael was drafted. Michaels HS numbers are superior to Lebrons in every stat, if the NBA scouted HS players then like it does now they would have been on his nuts.If Lebron played for Dean Smith, his numbers would have been no better than MJ's at UNC. You have heard the joke about who was the last guy to hold MJ under 20 points.... Dean Smith.

yeah i'll grant that smith held him back - although losing to steve alford with sam perkins is embarrassingi'll also admit that no one back in the day would have chosen a small guy over a big guy but while everyone mocks portland for the bowie pick no one has ever mocked houston for the alajuwon pick even though they already had sampsonhigh school teams in Jordan's day didn't play the national schedule they do now - you have to at least grant that no one has ever been faced with the media onslaught and pressure that lebron has and he hasn't really disappointedI'm not sure how the scouting was back in the day but i remember that no one was talking about jordan being a god until at least his sophomore year in collegei remember this because in the ncaa preview that year when i looked back i thought it was funny that he was known as Mike Jordan thenIf Lebron ever gets his pippen and fails i'll damn him forever but he doesn't have him yet - not even closeHell i'd take a horace grant

[Jadaki 0]

high school teams in Jordan's day didn't play the national schedule they do now - you have to at least grant that no one has ever been faced with the media onslaught and pressure that lebron has and he hasn't really disappointedI'm not sure how the scouting was back in the day but i remember that no one was talking about jordan being a god until at least his sophomore year in college

He is under that pressure thanks to Jordan, Kobe, KG... When Jordan came in even the most talented Freshman usually didn't get a ton of playing time their first year, the college game has changed just as much in the last 30 years as the NBA has.

[keith crime 8]

He is under that pressure thanks to Jordan, Kobe, KG... When Jordan came in even the most talented Freshman usually didn't get a ton of playing time their first year, the college game has changed just as much in the last 30 years as the NBA has.

maybe but when kobe and kg came into the league no one expected much until at least year threefreshmen started to get more play in college once no one started staying around for their jr and sr years and after the fab fiveof course kareems freshman team was as good as the national champions that year