I Am Bored At Work

[simo_8ball 0]

Of course, 3-betting OOP is disastrous, and I hardly ever do it, even w/hands of fairly strong absolute value.

There's nothing wrong with 3betting wide OOP as long as you're comfortable with knowing how your opponent plays. 3betting wrap hands is awesome because flops are either hit or miss usually and pretty simple to play postflop, plus you can fire at Axx flops with a decent amount of fold equity.I actually 3bet ~12% out of the blinds, but I'm a lot more LAG than most (around 39/29).

[trystero 0]

I just feel that I get owned from OOP when deep, and it's not only because I don't know what I'm doing: it's because being OOP is such a disadvantage unless you flop the world. Floated, blown off my hand, you name it. Yeah, it's true, a lot of players are weak/tight and terrified of anything but a check, but anyone remotely decent has such a wide range of options. I'm sure that you could compensate for a lot of my weaknesses, but still, I'm always put in a spot where every option looks like it sucks. I do 3-bet wrap types from every position too, since you can continue on a bunch of flops, but I'm lucky to get dealt one per session. Certainly won't make 13%

[tskillz187 0]

Triple barreling works really, really well in deep games.

[Temporary Nuts 1]

How do you mentally deal with running into a million coolers over 10k hands?

[babylondonks 5]

Triple barreling works really, really well in deep games.

This. It's often very villain dependent too, I mean I'd triple barrel myself Tim a thinking reg every hand if I knew they were a thinking reg

[babylondonks 5]

How do you mentally deal with running into a million coolers over 10k hands?

By posting a lot of bad beats/coolers, complain about losing 200bb pots and never winning them, utilise AIM to whine to everybody who will listen and just watch videos/study/review a lot to make sure it isn't me. Oh and by contemplating suicides.

[Temporary Nuts 1]

*disclaimer* I may be being incredibly results oriented here, but I think this is not a coolerhttp://www.pokerhand.org/?4704242Ok, I raise preflop with QQ at 6-max, standardGet a call and a tiny 3-bet from a guy who doesn't raise pf a whole ton. At this point, I'm saying to myself, "this has to be AA/KK/AK" and elect to call because if I spike a queen profits.On the flop, i get my queen... but there's an ace and the pfr checks... i bet small to try to bloat the pot and get the weak range to come along... and get a call AND a small check-raise.I say OUT LOUD, this has to be AA and only AA, i should probably foldSo I decide that folding a set is lulz and make the move to bloat the pot as much as possible, get the mobnies in, and lose to AACOULD I REALLY HAVE FOLDED THIS ON THE FLOP OR AM I BEING A TARD?

[babylondonks 5]

You're being a tard :)I don't remember sagekami too well but people squeeze a lot at 50nl and his range is much wider. Sure he c/r flop here but1) people play really bad in 3bet pots2) people play really bad in multiway potsThis is AK/AQ a lot imo (AJ probably leads) and I like your flop flat to keep the other guy in, but there's no way you should be folding thereAlso I just went through my HEM and realised I've played 50 hands or so with you. Are you normally 11/9?

[tskillz187 0]

This. It's often very villain dependent too, I mean I'd triple barrel myself Tim a thinking reg every hand if I knew they were a thinking reg

It's a little bit better against a nitty reg than a thinking reg. I mean once most thinking regs also triple barrel bluff they know that your range includes a lot of the same hands that they are doing it with. A nitty reg thinks about their own triple barreling range and then applies it to a thinking regs (because nitty regs don't ever think they play worse than other regs) range. So they end up with only the value hands and they make fold after fold. Generally when I triple barrel, I'm UTG so my range is at it's strongest and it's against a button caller with the board being Axx. I think you can get button's to fold any non two pair hand by the river in most of those situations.They would 3bet AK, AA, so basically you just hafta have the balls to go for it and make a reg fold a pair of aces every once in awhile. At first you're just trying to get them to fold anything but a pair of aces, that's what the first two barrels are for, the third beautiful one is to get the top pair hands out.

[KingJames 11]

Working hard on my game today. Gonna read/study a lot, then play.September is turning around nicely after a rocket ship start followed by edge-of-the-world drop in the second week.(Also, I know the world is round and not flat)

[trystero 0]

It's a little bit better against a nitty reg than a thinking reg. I mean once most thinking regs also triple barrel bluff they know that your range includes a lot of the same hands that they are doing it with. A nitty reg thinks about their own triple barreling range and then applies it to a thinking regs (because nitty regs don't ever think they play worse than other regs) range. So they end up with only the value hands and they make fold after fold. Generally when I triple barrel, I'm UTG so my range is at it's strongest and it's against a button caller with the board being Axx. I think you can get button's to fold any non two pair hand by the river in most of those situations.They would 3bet AK, AA, so basically you just hafta have the balls to go for it and make a reg fold a pair of aces every once in awhile. At first you're just trying to get them to fold anything but a pair of aces, that's what the first two barrels are for, the third beautiful one is to get the top pair hands out.

I like thismore insight

[tskillz187 0]

more insight

Are you asking for more? I'm not sure what else to add, haha.

[Pot Odds RAC 23]

*disclaimer* I may be being incredibly results oriented here, but I think this is not a coolerhttp://www.pokerhand.org/?4704242Ok, I raise preflop with QQ at 6-max, standardGet a call and a tiny 3-bet from a guy who doesn't raise pf a whole ton. At this point, I'm saying to myself, "this has to be AA/KK/AK" and elect to call because if I spike a queen profits.On the flop, i get my queen... but there's an ace and the pfr checks... i bet small to try to bloat the pot and get the weak range to come along... and get a call AND a small check-raise.I say OUT LOUD, this has to be AA and only AA, i should probably foldSo I decide that folding a set is lulz and make the move to bloat the pot as much as possible, get the mobnies in, and lose to AACOULD I REALLY HAVE FOLDED THIS ON THE FLOP OR AM I BEING A TARD?

I went thru the HH and wound up pretty much where you did. Not a cooler, just "one of those hands"We hit our trips and said" if he has Aces, I'm going borke"... EVEN WHEN WE CORRECTLY PUT HIM ON ACES!!!Well, sometimes we go broke. Not a Tard, even when we heard the correct voice saying "he has aces"Reload.

[Temporary Nuts 1]

Also I just went through my HEM and realised I've played 50 hands or so with you. Are you normally 11/9?

Noooo you have a really nitty sample. I run about 17/14 which is still really really tight but it allows me to resteal and barrel a shittonAlso, I moved to HU NL for the time being. I usually switch games when I go through a downswing to allow a learning curve to offset my frustrations. There are a ton of fish there but you really have to use PTR like a fishfinder or the rake will eat you alive.

[tskillz187 0]

I run about 17/14

ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww.

[Temporary Nuts 1]

ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww.

let me guess, i'm about 15 points too tight for your likings?

[trystero 0]

Are you asking for more? I'm not sure what else to add, haha.

not on that specific point, but about shit in general that you find useful w/3barreling or whateverlike at <=50nl, I never bother 3 barreling because my opponents will call me down (so I believe). I think I've done it 8 times in my mature poker life (don't count just learning NLHE donk status) and it worked once. so a few possibilities exist, 1) the player pool is not conducive to 3-barreling, 2) I'm not recognizing the right opponents or board textures to 3-barrel, 3) I'm not manipulating the pot correctly, so that my opponents may be getting the right price to call me. I'd say probably all of the above. what I liked about your post was that you had chosen a particular situation to 3-barrel. It was when you were UTG. I bet most people who 3-barrel aren't considering that at all; I know I'm not, probably because range-perception isn't a skill to be selected until higher limits. At 50nl and lower the skills to be selected are fundamental and simplistic.

[BaseJester 1]

what I liked about your post was that you had chosen a particular situation to 3-barrel. It was when you were UTG. I bet most people who 3-barrel aren't considering that at all; I know I'm not, probably because range-perception isn't a skill to be selected until higher limits. At 50nl and lower the skills to be selected are fundamental and simplistic.

On a related note, do you think AA unimproved is good for 3-streets of value at 25NL and 50NL?

[trystero 0]

In theory I'd say yes, since most players at those limits are unwilling to fold hands of absolute strength, and they interpret top pair as one such hand. A major mistake which many novices make is trying to bluff unknowns or even "regs." There's no point attacking a weakness which doesn't exist. Since most novices begin in the micro/lower limits, they're probably more prone to making this mistake than any other player group.

[Temporary Nuts 1]

On a related note, do you think AA unimproved is good for 3-streets of value at 25NL and 50NL?

25NL definitely50NL opponent dependant... but usually the ones just calling you down it's definitely ok... you may have to c-c a lot of rivers though

[tskillz187 0]

not on that specific point, but about shit in general that you find useful w/3barreling or whateverlike at <=50nl, I never bother 3 barreling because my opponents will call me down (so I believe). I think I've done it 8 times in my mature poker life (don't count just learning NLHE donk status) and it worked once. so a few possibilities exist, 1) the player pool is not conducive to 3-barreling, 2) I'm not recognizing the right opponents or board textures to 3-barrel, 3) I'm not manipulating the pot correctly, so that my opponents may be getting the right price to call me. I'd say probably all of the above. what I liked about your post was that you had chosen a particular situation to 3-barrel. It was when you were UTG. I bet most people who 3-barrel aren't considering that at all; I know I'm not, probably because range-perception isn't a skill to be selected until higher limits. At 50nl and lower the skills to be selected are fundamental and simplistic.

You're playing your game, you and another reg are both 100bbs deep, he is a 20/17. Other reg is UTG and opens to 3bbs, you flat on button with AJss, every one else folds. Flop comes A83r, Reg bets 5bbs into a pot with 7bbs. You call. Pot is now 17bbs, with 92bbs effective.Turn is a 4, reg bets 15bbs, you call. Pot is 47bbs, you are now 77bbs effective. River is a 4. Reg bets 56bbs. What do you do with AJ? I think you'd fold it. I think most regs would fold AJ to other regs in this spot. Why? His UTG range is 22-AA, KQss, ATss+, AJo+. Villain is repping AK, AA, 88, 33. The board is so dry that he can't be repping any missed draws. The only hands you beat are complete air, but he only has complete air with KQss. Every other hand either has showdown value (that would pot control) or is a value betting hand. How can you call this regs river bet? You might even fold the turn! Most winning regs (regardless of $25nl, $50nl, $100nl or w/e will either go through that thought process and fold, or not go through it but go "no one bets three streets big w/o something huge" and fold.Now let's think about your range for flatting pf, the flop, and turn.PF:22-JJ, ATss, AJss, (maybe AQss), AJ, (maybe AQ), various suited connecting/gapping hands.Flop to flat call: AT, AJ, AQ, JJ, TT, 99, maybe 88, maybe 33 (I think most regs raise a set on an A high board), 78ss, 89ss, 8Tss, 86ss.Turn to flat call: AT, AJ, AQ, maybe 88, maybe 33.River: ????I think you should be flatting with sets but most regs don't, for various reasons, but usually because they are worried to get sucked out on, or w/e, or they think you must like your hand so raising on flop or turn looks weaker than raising on river. So as UTG villain we basically can pin you on exactly AT-AQ and try to apply enough pressure to make you fold it. Also, you can see visually how firing two barrels cleans up everything except top pair. It works so well as UTG because our UTG range is very strong and regs know that UTG ranges are very strong. I think people are giving regs too little credit here, if you play at such and such a limit and are a winning player and you think about their UTG range, other winners at your level do the same thing. I also think the bad regs fold too much to pressure esp from regs because there is so much easy money to pick up from complete morons that they don't want to lose big pots to regs. Also the lower the limits, the less often pots get big because everyone plays so passive, so playing big pots gets everyone out of their comfort zone so quickly. I think lower limits are MORE conducive to bluffing regs with 3 barrels.

[tskillz187 0]

On a related note, do you think AA unimproved is good for 3-streets of value at 25NL and 50NL?

I think if you didn't even look at board with AA playing $25nl or $50nl you could bet get it in on any flop. If not given this option you could bet/fold turn and river. I really don't see how it's even possible to not think about 3streets of value with AA. If you aren't trying to get 3 streets with AA, the only times you're trying to get value is when you flop set/trips/straight/flush. Which means if people think they can't get 3 streets of value with AA just 3 barrel your whole range every hand, people are folding too damn much!

[babylondonks 5]

Tim said everything I was going to say but much more eloquently and in-depth That is all

[tskillz187 0]

FWIW I posted the exact hand I described here at 4bb disguised as "hand that I watched my ex student play" and what to do on the button. About 4-5 small stakes NL winners posted what they would do with AJ. None of these players play higher than $100nl, but most play $50nl.Me:I was watching my former student today. He was playing $50nl but I don't have the HH. I'll try to recapture the hand as best I can for you. Hero is button with AJss, villain is UTG, 100bbs effective. Villain is winning reg 20/17 stats, no other reads.Villain makes it $1.50 UTG, folds to Hero on button he calls with AJss. They take it heads up.Flop: A83r pot: $3.5Villain bets $2.5, Hero calls.Turn A834 (complete rainbow) pot:$8.5Villain bets $7.5, Hero?? (Let's say we call.).River: A8344 pot: $23.5Villain bets $28. Hero??? Their responses:1. "turbofolds unless we have a read that he can overbet bluff. My general process is that people are wayyyy more likely to overbet the nuts than a bluff even if they're trying to balance. And lots of regs don't even try to balance. Seems a weird bet by him though if he's only leaving like $8 effective behind. Definitely turbofold I think. If he's good enough to 3 barrel us there with air he wins a gold star (and some money).2. "I don't think that the turn call should be done 100% of the time since we pretty much have a bluff catcher against an utg's value betting range hereAs it stands you still beat a bluff and he just polarized his range. Apart from AQ can we ever have a better hand here ?"3. "The river overbet makes me want to call now that we've gotten this far.It's hard to imagine villain taking this superstrong line with no real draws out there, so he's basically repping AK/flopped set.I think fighter already said it, but this turn is sometimes a fold, depending on read/gameflow.I call and villain sticks A8hh in my eye. " 4. "I think if villian is a winning reg willing to fire 3 barrels on this board (with very few draws), he almost has to have us beat. My first thought was this looks like AK/AQ just firing out as a continuation bet on the flop then value betting the turn, but then I don't know if he would be betting the river if you have flatted two streets- he would probably check call. But yea, he's a solid player and for him to fire 3 streets (OOP) I think you almost have to feel you are beat here."5. "i would generally fold turn, but now im def folding river. his bet sizing on every street is very indicative of a pretty big hand, or at least AK"

[simo_8ball 0]

I'd probably lean towards calling (at least a lot more readily than the other 4bb guys), but that's because one of the things you've neglected to mention is our image. If we are seen as LAG and tricky villain will play us differently to if we are a generic nitty reg villain.