I Am Bored At Work

[babylondonks 5]

If you've just become rolled for a limit I really don't recommend playing with 200BB+ effective stacks

Don't agree with this, maybe not buying in for 200bbs but our edge should still be more than decent here. Not all of us are ratholing shortstackers

[Temporary Nuts 1]

Don't agree with this, maybe not buying in for 200bbs but our edge should still be more than decent here. Not all of us are ratholing shortstackers

i haven't short stacked in a long while! It's been at least 20 days

[tskillz187 0]

I wouldn't play 200bbs until you are very fundamentally sound at poker. Then once you do have very solid fundamentals you should spend quite a while thinking about how playing 200bbs deep differs from playing 100bbs and what sort of standard plays became leaks deep. Then once you've come to a conclusion of how you think you should play, I'd bat it around with a few people you respect as players and people you think might be better than you. Then I'd try doing whatever we all agreed upon a level or two lower than what I'm rolled for until it becomes 2nd nature.I hate playing 100bbs deep, it's boring to me and I make mistakes now when I'm deep because I forget others aren't and my pf play gets a little too passive, which def isn't good. But that's a better problem to have than to play too aggressively 200bbs deep, which is the common mistake that winning players make when they switch from 100bbs to 200bbs. Like, it's just too hard to 3bet OOP even when you know the button is opening way too wide, flatting>3betting deep and it's the exact opposite 100bbs. Gawd I hate 100bbs!

[KingJames 11]

i haven't short stacked in a long while! It's been at least 20 days

Remember what they told you at the short-stackers anonymous meeting:You're always going to be a short-stacker and this is a lifelong illness. Whether it's been 20 hours, 20 days or 20 years, it only takes on session and bang, relapse...

[Temporary Nuts 1]

I wouldn't play 200bbs until you are very fundamentally sound at poker. Then once you do have very solid fundamentals you should spend quite a while thinking about how playing 200bbs deep differs from playing 100bbs and what sort of standard plays became leaks deep. Then once you've come to a conclusion of how you think you should play, I'd bat it around with a few people you respect as players and people you think might be better than you. Then I'd try doing whatever we all agreed upon a level or two lower than what I'm rolled for until it becomes 2nd nature.I hate playing 100bbs deep, it's boring to me and I make mistakes now when I'm deep because I forget others aren't and my pf play gets a little too passive, which def isn't good. But that's a better problem to have than to play too aggressively 200bbs deep, which is the common mistake that winning players make when they switch from 100bbs to 200bbs. Like, it's just too hard to 3bet OOP even when you know the button is opening way too wide, flatting>3betting deep and it's the exact opposite 100bbs. Gawd I hate 100bbs!

So captain deepstack...is KK still the nuts preflop 500BBs deep?in general how awful is 4bet shoving KK 500BBs deep?

Remember what they told you at the short-stackers anonymous meeting:You're always going to be a short-stacker and this is a lifelong illness. Whether it's been 20 hours, 20 days or 20 years, it only takes on session and bang, PROFITS

FYP

[droberts 3]

Also, congrats on moving up to 10nl and I hope you run like pre

ty. i ran 85ish bbs/100 at 5NL over 6000 hands. i dont expect that the higher i go obviously. but so far at 10NL i am 110BBs/100

[droberts 3]

was u talking to me about being 200BB deep in a ring game... i didnt notice where i was that deep if so??

[Temporary Nuts 1]

was u talking to me about being 200BB deep in a ring game... i didnt notice where i was that deep if so??

Yes, i had misread your post sorrythat doesn't mean Tskillz advice is any less valuable though

[tskillz187 0]

So captain deepstack...is KK still the nuts preflop 500BBs deep?in general how awful is 4bet shoving KK 500BBs deep?

I dunno... it's all villain dependent, there aren't really "rules" I follow for that. But 4betting all in 500bbs deep doesnt make any sense.Say it's button v blind, the raise size will usually go 3bb -> 12bb -> 28-32bbs -> 68-80bbs. So the decision is really on the button for his 6th bet. If I was the SB I just wouldn't make the 5bet if I wasn't going to get it in and I'd flat the 4bet of 28-32bbs and go into call mode just like if I were the button.It's really hard to get in that situation though just because it's not a preflop game that deep and someone is going to flat somewhere along there. It's so much more +EV to flat somewhere and keep your range wider/weaker than to pray he's shoving QQ and AK pf.

[tskillz187 0]

The more common thing is you see a button raising 50% of buttons with a low fold to 3bet and regs just 3bet with like AJo. I think that's a bad play (I also think if Ryan reads this he'll disagree with that). It's so much easier to have a realllllllllly narrow 3bet in the blinds of something like JJ+ for value and then some suited connectors to balance, but for balance really you can only have like two to 4 combos, like 56ss, 67ss, 57ss, 68ss.

[CobaltBlue 662]

Raise more preflop. 3xbb plus 1bb for each limper is always a good strat.

When I'm going to be OOP (in the blinds), I actually like to make it 4xbb+1bb/limper.Also, tskillz, two words: root beer.

[tskillz187 0]

When I'm going to be OOP (in the blinds), I actually like to make it 4xbb+1bb/limper.Also, tskillz, two words: root beer.

LOLOLOLOLOL.I love how much you love that. You're everywhere with your root beer.

[CobaltBlue 662]

LOLOLOLOLOL.I love how much you love that. You're everywhere with your root beer.

I really do love me some root beer...the drink and the play.

[Temporary Nuts 1]

I really do love me some root beer...the drink and the play.

http://www.examiner.com/x-281-Caffeine-Exa...er-energy-drinkalso, i just looked up the play... not a huge fan imo... but I guess I've done this with top set

[tskillz187 0]

I really do love me some root beer...the drink and the play.

In regards to the play. I think it may be fine but it hasn't been studied enough or taught enough for me to incorporate it. I'm not good enough to figure out optimal strategies to exploit people etc, I need someone to prove to me that something works well, me to think about it and then I adopt it into my game. I doubt I'll ever be a top tier player because I don't think deeply enough to come up with a new style or new game theory that will work. I just try to mimic what really good players do and figure out why it's a good play.People have not talked enough in depth about leading in 3bet pots OOP. I don't know how villain will react and I don't think I'm good enough to put myself in situations where villain and myself don't have experience being in with him having the positional advantage. Like, I feel like I would play pretty well against someone leading into me in 3b pots OOP.

[tskillz187 0]

I guess what I'm really saying is positional advantage > betting lead even when the pot is 24bbs when effective stacks are another 150+bbs. The stack:pot is too big to overcome the positional disadvantage imo.

[KingJames 11]

I don't get "teh root beerz"- leading into a pre-flop 3bettor? With your entire range? With the nuts?

[Temporary Nuts 1]

I don't get "teh root beerz"- leading into a pre-flop 3bettor? With your entire range? With the nuts?

It's a tiny bet when you are the aggressor and OOP that enouragesa) floats from the opposition (root beer float)b ) a raise from the opponent that allows you to 3-bet (AI normally)This basically lets you either get a cheap card with a NFD or something, and money when you would have gotten none with AA or KK on a board that's difficult to connect with 3-bet.

[KingJames 11]

It's a tiny bet when you are the aggressor and OOP that enouragesa) floats from the opposition (root beer float)b ) a raise from the opponent that allows you to 3-bet (AI normally)This basically lets you either get a cheap card with a NFD or something, and money when you would have gotten none with AA or KK on a board that's difficult to connect with 3-bet.

I seeTY TYAlso, if one of you wouldn't mind providing a HH

[KingJames 11]

This was a live hand I played last night, a .10/.25 game with my friends. I was 250bb effective, and I'd like comments on bet-sizing as well as the line.Villain is an aggro-tard. He has 500-600bb from simplying winning big pots. He just 4-bet shoved with KT and got looked up by AK(160bb stack)... So he had even more moneys (750bb ish), and is now semi-monkey tilting. He's very active, bluffy, spewy...We're playing 5-handed at this point. And I'm UTG and I straddled.Villain calls, 3 folds, Hero checks with Td 4d ($1.35)Flop: 942rHero bets $1 Villain raises to $2.50, Hero calls ($6.35)Villains range to raise my flop-lead is suuuuper wide. I honestly feel that calling his flop-raise and c/c turn and river with just a pair of 4s is either break-even or even profitable because of his tendency to spew/bluff. Maybe not quite, but if I can get to showdown for just one more bet I'd show a profit over the long-haul. But...Turn 4 (complaining rainbow)Hero checks, Villain bets $3.5, Hero raises to $10, Villain calls ($26.35)I know my hand is pretty face-up to a thinking player, but I'm fairly certain he has A9/over-pair etc... I don't think he can get away from TP/over-pair here andw ill be going to showdown. He would def raise me with a FHRiver KHero bets $16Is my line/bet-sizing/thinking okay?

[CobaltBlue 662]

In regards to the play. I think it may be fine but it hasn't been studied enough or taught enough for me to incorporate it. I'm not good enough to figure out optimal strategies to exploit people etc, I need someone to prove to me that something works well, me to think about it and then I adopt it into my game. I doubt I'll ever be a top tier player because I don't think deeply enough to come up with a new style or new game theory that will work. I just try to mimic what really good players do and figure out why it's a good play.People have not talked enough in depth about leading in 3bet pots OOP. I don't know how villain will react and I don't think I'm good enough to put myself in situations where villain and myself don't have experience being in with him having the positional advantage. Like, I feel like I would play pretty well against someone leading into me in 3b pots OOP.

I agree that it hasn't been studied enough. That said, I've been somewhat using it as my default for a few months now, and I feel like it's working really well. I'll still deviate to a more normal c-bet if the stack sizes or villain dictate it. That's the nice thing about the play...it's putting villain in an unusual spot. It's somewhat hard to play against, I believe. Basically, it lessens the positional disadvantage a bit.Say that you raise, I 3-bet OOP, and you flat. Then, I bet 1/5-1/3 pot. You have a flush draw. Do you call and draw cheaply? Do you raise and risk me shoving on you? You have a set. Do you call and risk giving cheap cards? Do you raise and risk me dumping my air for really cheap (screwing over your original implied odds)?One factor that may be playing into this is that I like playing LHE, so I'm comfortable making very small bets post-flop in relation to the pot.I'll find some examples and post them.

[CobaltBlue 662]

:feral_cow:v1.07Feral Cow PokerHEM/Bodog NL Hold'em $2.00/$3.00 - 2 playersButton Villain: $239.50 BB Hero: $1,168.25 Preflop: ($5.00) Hero is BB with (2 players)Villain raises to $9, Hero raises to $32, Villain calls $23.00Flop: ($64.00) (2 players)Hero bets $22.00, Villain calls $22.00Turn: ($108.00) (2 players)Hero bets $38.00, Villain calls $38.00River: ($184.00) (2 players)Hero bets $150.00, Villain foldsHero won $183.50:feral_cow:v1.07This converter is going to be a cash cow...HEM/Bodog NL Hold'em $2.00/$3.00 - 5 playersCO: $565.00 Button Villain: $938.00 SB Hero: $285.75 BB: $464.25 UTG: $300.00 Preflop: ($5.00) Hero is SB with (5 players)2 folds, Villain raises to $11, Hero raises to $41, 1 fold, Villain calls $30.00Flop: ($85.00) (2 players)Hero bets $30.00, Villain foldsHero won $83.00:feral_cow:v1.07Feral Cow PokerHEM/Bodog NL Hold'em $2.00/$3.00 - 6 playersUTG+1 Villain: $904.00 CO Villain 2: $71.75 Button: $295.00 SB Hero: $455.25 BB: $283.00 UTG: $972.25 Preflop: ($5.00) Hero is SB with (6 players)Villain folds, Villain raises to $11, Villain 2 calls $11.00, 1 fold, Hero raises to $51, 1 fold, Villain calls $40.00, 1 foldFlop: ($116.00) (2 players)Hero bets $36.00, Villain calls $36.00Turn: ($188.00) (2 players)Hero bets $66.00, Villain foldsHero won $185

[CobaltBlue 662]

:feral_cow:v1.07once a cow has a taste for violence, it reverts. it becomes feral.HEM/Bodog NL Hold'em $2.00/$3.00 - 6 playersUTG+1: $302.75 CO: $304.00 Button Villain: $292.75 SB Hero: $276.50 BB: $307.75 UTG: $117.00 Preflop: ($5.00) Hero is SB with (6 players)2 folds, Villain raises to $11, Hero raises to $43, 1 fold, Villain calls $32.00Flop: ($89.00) (3 players)Hero bets $24.00, Villain calls $24.00Turn: ($137.00) (3 players)Hero bets $42.00, Villain foldsHero won $135:feral_cow:v1.07once a cow has a taste for violence, it reverts. it becomes feral.HEM/Bodog NL Hold'em $2.00/$3.00 - 4 playersSB: $650.50 BB Hero: $409.75 UTG[: $556.10 Button Villain: $259.00 Preflop: ($5.00) Hero is BB with (4 players)1 fold, Villain raises to $11, 1 fold, Hero raises to $41, Villain calls $30.00Flop: ($84.00) (2 players)Hero bets $22.00, Villain calls $22.00Turn: ($128.00) (2 players)Hero bets $34.00, Villain foldsHero won $126:feral_cow:v1.07This converter is going to be a cash cow...HEM/Bodog NL Hold'em $2.00/$3.00 - 6 playersCO Villain: $759.93 Button: $278.25 SB Hero: $527.60 BB: $484.00 UTG: $186.40 UTG+1: $329.75 Preflop: ($5.00) Hero is SB with (6 players)2 folds, Villain raises to $6, 1 fold, Hero raises to $28, 1 fold, Villain calls $22.00Flop: ($59.00) (2 players)Hero bets $16.00, Villain calls $16.00Turn: ($91.00) (2 players)Hero bets $36.00, Villain foldsHero won $88

[CobaltBlue 662]

Bonus "slummin'" hand...:feral_cow:v1.07Milked from the teat of a feral cowHEM/Full Tilt NL Hold'em $0.05/$0.10 - 5 playersButton: $10.15 SB: $19.11 BB Hero: $10.61 UTG: $10.73 CO Villain: $39.49 Preflop: ($0.15) Hero is BB with (5 players)lalala119 folds, Villain raises to $0.35, Villain 2 calls $0.35, Villain 3 calls $0.30, Hero raises to $1.90, Villain calls $1.55, 2 foldsFlop: ($4.50) (2 players)Hero bets $1.10, Villain calls $1.10Turn: ($6.70) (2 players)Hero bets $1.80, Villain calls $1.80River: ($10.30) (2 players)Hero bets $5.81, Villain foldsHero won $9.62

[Temporary Nuts 1]

As much as I enjoy seeing your success Cobalt... I'd like to see hands where it didn't work out so well as well... I mean I highly doubt that play works close to 100% of the timeEven if you could guess a success rate that'd be cool. I do see how you are essentially taking a c-bet size and splitting it up into two barrels which gives yourself much better odds and therefore a need for a much lower success rate per barrel, but like tskillz said, unless we have a fair sample it's hard to really incorporate such a play. To be perfectly honest with you, the only time I've "root beered" is with top set, like I said earlier, and only because it has such a high frequency of people coming over the top of me with airballs or made hand bluffs.