The Reason For Raising...

[Actuary 3]

raise more often not less often if everyone is gussing it.just be in tune post flop

[vbnautilus 48]

What Simo said. It's still a long run game. That particular situation has been discussed ad nauseum on here and 2p2, with people like Paul Phillips and Greg Raymer commenting that they wouldn't fold there ever. If they don't fold there, you shouldn't.

I don't really take an argument from authority as very convincing, but if its been discussed already ad nausem I won't pursue it.

Tournaments have a lot of other things to consider as well as just tEV, so they're a bit of a different monster. On the first hand of a tourney though, tEV = $EV because it's too early to be worried about folding to move up the payscale, etc. Nonetheless, this thread was based upon cash game implications, which mean the ONLY thing you're worried about is making the most +EV decision.

That was kind of what I was trying to get at, that in a tourney you have more to lose than just chips. But again, didn't mean to derail this thread; carry on...

[Zach6668 513]

I don't really take an argument from authority as very convincing, but if its been discussed already ad nausem I won't pursue it. That was kind of what I was trying to get at, that in a tourney you have more to lose than just chips. But again, didn't mean to derail this thread; carry on...

Well, the thing to remember is that on the first hand of the WSOP, it's essentially a cash game, or should play like it, since any of those things that make a tournament different from a cash game really don't come into effect. Like I said earlier anything that is +EV is also plus tEV (or cEV), as they are essentially equal at that point.I just spent a ton of time looking on 2p2 for the link, and couldn't find it, but here's a few that might be interesting with respect to the AA hand.http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat...e=0#Post3436856 << Their best MTT posts, there's a few about passing up small edges early, and how you shouldn't do it, which somewhat relate to this.Also, this is kinda funny, someone started this thread today, asking the exact same question, lol, and judging by the replies, it's pretty obvious what the consensus is, lol. It's actually locked now, but you can still read it. http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat...=0#Post10422956

[Balloon guy 158]

So in other words:Respect My Raises!

[Zach6668 513]

Here's another great thread on the raising for value issue: http://www.fullcontactpoker.com/poker-foru...st&p=972992Good thread from RGP stating pretty much the same thing I said above: http://groups.google.com/group/rec.gamblin...8d5e091b8dff690Another funny FCP thread full of people who just don't get it. http://www.fullcontactpoker.com/poker-foru...s+the+Big+Blind

[11 to 1 0]

BUT - Poker, especially Hold 'Em, isn't math. Math is just one tool. What do you want those AAs to do? What's your table image? Who are you playing with? What position are you in; what's already happened? I've played so tight and gotten so lucky (rarely but its happened) that I couldn't get a single call on any hand I raised. Unless there are a lot of limpers in front of me or someone else has raised, I get the blinds for my Aces. Sometimes I've taken a few bad beats and lost big pots and people think I'm loose and bluffing. Then EVERYONE wants to call my raises. I remember some poker show host asking a few pros if they'd ever folded pocket Aces preflop - two had, in tournaments. There aren't any rules, there is only the moment, the situation and the best choice you can make at that time.

[Zach6668 513]

Please, poker is 100% math. It's a card game based on probabilities and statistics.The people who use their "feel, image, etc" are using that to create a range of hands their opponent could have, and using mathematics to determine the best possible play. It's ALL routed in mathematics. That's what gambling is. You have to take into account all of the factors and interpret them and apply it to the math of the situation.

[savagerebel 0]

Wow that is a lot to read but it is worth it. I might take some crap for this but, in Phil Gordon's Little Green Book he talks about if you open a pot it should almost always be with a raise. It has been pretty successful for me online. i usually get a few callers but a good follow-up bet after the flop (if you hit it or not) is usually good enough to take it down. my longest post ever

[GWCGWC 83]

Please, poker is 100% math. It's a card game based on probabilities and statistics.The people who use their "feel, image, etc" are using that to create a range of hands their opponent could have, and using mathematics to determine the best possible play. It's ALL routed in mathematics. That's what gambling is. You have to take into account all of the factors and interpret them and apply it to the math of the situation.

LOLZ at the math/strat guys who say poker can be reduced to math. LLLLLLLLLLLLLOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLLLZZZZZZZZZIt's gonna be a very rude awakening when you figure out poker is all about MAGIC

[Zach6668 513]

LOLZ at the math/strat guys who say poker can be reduced to math. LLLLLLLLLLLLLOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLLLZZZZZZZZZIt's gonna be a very rude awakening when you figure out poker is all about MAGIC

[NoSup4U 0]

2 quick things: A lot of people like to say that "I have to raise to 8X the bb just to get it down to 3 callers." Um, this is a spectacular thing if true! And if it were consistantly true, then you should be raising to 10 or 12X the bb if people are calling those raises with dumb hands. But that doesn't happen too often I think, or people would be consistantly raising to 12X the bb....Also, raising pf is important because it allows you to more easily control the betting post flop, and has meta game implications as well.This question is asked all the time, but there's a reason why through all of history most good players raise when they enter pots pf. Mark

[barrec 0]

i agree whole-heartedly with the general concensus of raising AA being +EV. the only time folding should be considered is in a tournament situation (but definately not the first hand of the WSOP ME - count your blessings for everyone who wants to push preflop against you), and it's not even a raising situation. in Harrington on Hold'em Vol. II, harrington outlines a very specific situation in a satelite tournament where folding is your bes toption - no matter what you are holding. on page 424 (part 13 - final thoughts):6 players remain at a satelite tourny, top 4 cash. there are 4 players (including you) with $4,500 in chips, and two with $1,000 in chips. you are on the button. both short-stacks fold, CO goes all in. you have AA. according to harrington...

You're obviously 0 percent to qualify if you call and lose. ... So when you're a big favorite to qualify anyway, you have to fold your aces in a response to an all-in bet that can knock you out of the tournament

this one exception is only true because of the tourny/satelite situation, and because prizes 1-4 were of equal value. it doesn't matter how many chips you have as long as you are top 4, so the value of playing AA depends on your stack, M and Q, as well as the pay-out structure of the tourny. ______________________so when it comes to almost every single situation and AA, raise'em if you got'em.

[TheCinciKid 0]

Bleh, I know this is already two pages long and I haven't read them, so this has almost certainly been covered, but I really wanted to jump in without any other replies tainting my thinking. This topic is really covered in some depth in SSHE, but basically...you're raising for value in the type of scenario the OP described. For example, if 5 people see the flop and you have AA, you're an underdog to win that individual hand, but of all the hands at the table you have the best individual chance to win. If all hands were equal and there were 5 hands in, you'd have a 20% chance of winning. With AA here, you may have less than a 50% chance of winning the individual hand, BUT you have a better than 20% chance of winning, so you'll win more than your fair share. Hence, you have VALUE, in a raise. FWIW, the same holds true for JJ which was the OP's example. Bottom line, you raise b/c you have an edge. You may be a dog to win the individual hand, but there is value in a raise anytime you have a better than average chance to win the pot.

[timwakefield 68]

I don't understand the philosophy of not raising with JJ because you don't think it'll win either way unless you hit a set. Just because it's a big multiway pot doesn't mean your JJ is no good on a 348 board, or even an AK3 board (although on that particular board you should be wary of the krablar). Similarly, don't you want 5 opponents when the flop comes J32, and don't you want it to be a raised pot?

[rgold79 0]

Please, poker is 100% math. It's a card game based on probabilities and statistics.The people who use their "feel, image, etc" are using that to create a range of hands their opponent could have, and using mathematics to determine the best possible play. It's ALL routed in mathematics. That's what gambling is. You have to take into account all of the factors and interpret them and apply it to the math of the situation.

QFT. If I were teaching someone how to play winning poker from the ground up this would be the very first thing I pounded into their brain.Meanwhile, I'll keep taking money from every superstitious rube who wants nothing more than to get lucky and thinks he has a preternatural sense for when he'll spike his flush.

[sprfcta 0]

I wanted it to be a .gif (I think, like a movie clip) but when I tried to do it, it said the file was too large, and I pm'ed governator a couple of tiems about how to fix it but I think he's on vacation or something. So ya, I have no avatar

Might this help?www.picresize.com/

[Huskers20 0]

Wow,This is great we need more discussion like this on here.This is one of the better threads in a long time, even if the majority know what is right, most people are at least offering some pretty good insight.Thank you and Congrats to the forum.Oh I would like my steak medium rare:)Huskers20

[nutzbuster 7]

Wow,This is great we need more discussion like this on here.This is one of the better threads in a long time, even if the majority know what is right, most people are at least offering some pretty good insight.Thank you and Congrats to the forum.Oh I would like my steak medium rare:)Huskers20

I thought about this a good amount last night (and more today) after a rather poorly played session.The proof of how complex this is, is shown in how varied the opinions have been so far. Very interesting. Many seem to have lost their way a bit, me included. I often stray from proper play, trying to find a niche or an edge to my game. It's easy to get off track and sometimes taking the time to review even the most fundamental aspects of the game is necessary.The concept of raising to me is THEE most important aspect of poker. The input and insight so far reviewing this has been fantastic and very helpful, especially to the newer players I think.

[navybuttons 15]

What you guys don't undestand is that you are gaining value from every loose call when you have a good hand.

i was reading through this thread, read zach's first sentence and stopped. i'll assume he covered everything relevant in the rest of his post.

[Actuary 3]

with regard to Low Limit LHEI'd say the biggest correlating stat to a winning player is the pfr%.You can be loose or tight but if you show me a perpetual limper (especially with huge hand in EP or any playable hand opening from Hijack+), I'll show you a long time loser.ps... ok, of course playing 40% of your hands in Full ring is not going to lead to + results... but you can win with 13% - 27% vpip.I'm not sure I made any point here

[11 to 1 0]

Please, poker is 100% math. It's a card game based on probabilities and statistics.The people who use their "feel, image, etc" are using that to create a range of hands their opponent could have, and using mathematics to determine the best possible play. It's ALL routed in mathematics. That's what gambling is. You have to take into account all of the factors and interpret them and apply it to the math of the situation.

The fact is that poker is all about math for you. Not for Jennifer Harmon. It's what works for you, not what works for a whole host of other people. Everyone needs to find their own way, Zach, with the tools best fitted for themselves. I'm glad you are comfortable with the way you make decisions, but it is not the only way. Do you watch HSP? Do the math on some of those plays, Zach - you think Sammy Farha makes plays based on math? Poker is related to mathmatics in the same way composing music is: it's inherent in the structure - it isn't a finite sytem for making decisions.

[David_Nicoson 1]

Do the math on some of those plays, Zach - you think Sammy Farha makes plays based on math?

When he's not on tilt, yes.

[Actuary 3]

The fact is that poker is all about math for you. Not for Jennifer Harmon. It's what works for you, not what works for a whole host of other people. Everyone needs to find their own way, Zach, with the tools best fitted for themselves. I'm glad you are comfortable with the way you make decisions, but it is not the only way. Do you watch HSP? Do the math on some of those plays, Zach - you think Sammy Farha makes plays based on math? Poker is related to mathmatics in the same way composing music is: it's inherent in the structure - it isn't a finite sytem for making decisions.

you left strategy way too soon, dude.

[ratwastard 0]

u raise because u is suppossed to.

[Zach6668 513]

The fact is that poker is all about math for you. Not for Jennifer Harmon. It's what works for you, not what works for a whole host of other people. Everyone needs to find their own way, Zach, with the tools best fitted for themselves. I'm glad you are comfortable with the way you make decisions, but it is not the only way. Do you watch HSP? Do the math on some of those plays, Zach - you think Sammy Farha makes plays based on math? Poker is related to mathmatics in the same way composing music is: it's inherent in the structure - it isn't a finite sytem for making decisions.

No, the simple fact that poker is a card game played with precisely 52 cards, and dealt the same way each time, etc, and the fact that certain cards fall x% of the time makes it a math game. It's up to different people what they want to do with the math. You literally cannot be a winning player if you are making plays that are against the math of poker. Whether Sammy Farha knows it or not (I'm certain he does), the plays he makes are based, at their very foundation on mathematics. He also knows that isolating one play on TV does not mean anything with respect to the math of poker. Sammy may be giving up small edges here or there, calling too much with some hands, but he does it to gain a different edge later on; he gets action on all of his monster hands as well. He knows what he's doing, which is why he's one of the few succesful players to play like he does. I understand that some people like to claim they play "by feel", etc, and it was something they may have learned by playing as opposed to studying the math, but that doesn't change the fact that they are applying the principles of probabilities and statistics, etc, when playing the game, whether it be subconsiously or not.- Zach