'mentoring' = -ev

[troyomac 0]

I'm going to do you a favor and not humiliate you for such an ill-conceived, ridiculous conclusion. I stated clearly that he was on the SMALL blind in this particular hand....correct me if I am wrong, but if I remember correctly the 'first to act' is the player directly ahead of the big blind. O RLY ?A: I am the big blindB: 'grasshoppah' is the small blindC: it folds around to grasshoppahD: he jams it up 6X and I take the flopE: the rest of the hand is self explanitoryF: have another beer or go kick a puppy

If what you say is true, then how did you mini check raise him on the flop?And kicking puppies is bad.

[TR1N1TY 0]

If what you say is true, then how did you mini check raise him on the flop?And kicking puppies is bad.

ok fine I give up. the truth is I dont recall the EXACT sequence of this particular hand. Its really not important in the spirit of this thread. But for the sake of discussion, I was on the big blind...he was on the small blind....he may have raised my blind and I flat called (in fact Im sure of that)...the flop gave me trips and to be honest I dont remember how the hand went down after that point...to the best of my recollection I believe I may have led in the pot with a small bet and then he mini raised me and then I re-raised him and then he pushed like 10X the size of the pot....Its really not important the point is that his stack was giftwrapped for me and I was immediately accused of 'stealing' from him, which in my opinion was ludicrous considering I had devoted many hours to improving him as a player. The notion of me actually 'setting him up' to rip him off for such a small amount after so much time, was what really rubbed me the wrong way. The mechanics of this particular hand are irrelevant.

[troyomac 0]

ok fine I give up. the truth is I dont recall the EXACT sequence of this particular hand. Its really not important in the spirit of this thread. But for the sake of discussion, I was on the big blind...he was on the small blind....he may have raised my blind and I flat called (in fact Im sure of that)...the flop gave me trips and to be honest I dont remember how the hand went down after that point...to the best of my recollection I believe I may have led in the pot with a small bet and then he mini raised me and then I re-raised him and then he pushed like 10X the size of the pot....Its really not important the point is that his stack was giftwrapped for me and I was immediately accused of 'stealing' from him, which in my opinion was ludicrous considering I had devoted many hours to improving him as a player. The notion of me actually 'setting him up' to rip him off for such a small amount after so much time, was what really rubbed me the wrong way. The mechanics of this particular hand are irrelevant.

Now say you're sorry...

[Sunny 0]

I'm confused. You took $50 off the guy at the 1/2 table. How was this -ev?

[mrdannyg 274]

I have about $145 on AP, what would you say is the best method of building my bankroll? I bought in for $50 and have been playing 0.25/0.50 and had a brief stint at 0.50/1.00 cash games.

step 1: withdraw all of your money off of AP and get it on Stars or FTto be continued....

not surprisingly, you give terrible advice as well.in answer to esprito's question, you are not making a mistake to stick to the low limits for awhile. if you'd like more advice, feel free to visit the strat forum, and you'll get some good stuff.having said that, playing the $4.40 180 man SNG's on Stars IS one of the best ways to build a bankroll.

cliff notes: op is poor judge of character, takes on immature, stupid kid to mentor, immature kid tilts away money playing out of his bankroll just like he has his entire life, op comes to obvious conclusion that all mentoring is -evanother nugget of goldfwiw, mentoring has provided me with tons of intrinsic value on top of being ridiculously +ev for me in the short time i have been doing it

well put.in most cases, mentoring actually gives benefits to both the mentoror and mentoree, when both are mature responsible people, willing and able to learn from eachother.

[scram 1]

Without furthering any of the "he's an ungrateful brat and you're a ******" dialog, I'll take a different approach.I think "mentoring" is a very positive thing. I am a winning player, yet I still regularly invite and solicit opinions from a select few players about my game play and decision-making in certain situations. It has most definitely helped me plug a few gaps, in addition to helping arm me for game play at higher level (the sick high levels which my "mentors" already play).Poker is just as much a game of personality as it is of cards. Every player will naturally evolve into a style that most suits their own personality (which doesn't mean they will be a winning player- most personalities just aren't suited to playing winning poker and some people will never win over the long term no matter how hard they try, study, etc)Playing at the most unsophisticated, fundamentally sound levels will be winner at the small limits. Matter of fact, it's teh only way to beat them. The most important skill any poker player can have is the ability to recognize functional dynamics of any given game and adjust his play so it beats said game.If your mentee isn't winning at the small limits, that means he either doesn't have his fundamentals down pat, or is too stupid to adjust his game to beat the level in which his roll dictates he plays. In short, his game isn't ready for mentoring yet. He's still in the "Go read these books" phase, and even then, there's the possibility that he will never be a winning player if his own nature isn't geared for it.

[Wandigo 1]

Just because you had a bad experience in this case doesn't mean that mentoring is -ev. It seems to me that you didn't research this person much before taking him on as a student. Sounds like he's a bit young and immature and is just trying to TP/MM very quick. I also don't think that playing turbo SNG's is a good way to build a roll if you're just starting to learn the game. There's a different type of approach you should take to these and I don't think he would be able to succeed in doing it if he's still an inexperienced player. I think you just need to find a better candidate to take on and you'll think differently. I've been mentored since last November and it has done nothing but improve my game dramatically and help me handle all of the emotional rollercoasters that poker than bring. I've been tought more about this game than I ever thought was possible and strongly believe that everyone out there should have a mentor/teacher of whose game they respect.Just take this as a lesson learned and look more into the next person you decide to take on.

[Dratj 0]

No matter what your student did, you shouldn't have flamed him on the rails like that. Then to sit with him and take his money, well, that's just low. Agreed that your student was an a ss hole but as a teacher you can't stoop down to his level nomatter what. You should have just sent him an IM saying something like "Due to your recent attitude problem, I cannot help you in poker anymore."

[rgold79 0]

Yeah, I dunno, the only thought that came into my head while reading this was that the OP was kind of a dick. Hyper-vindictiveness is -EV.

[KentuckySlim 0]

No matter what your student did, you shouldn't have flamed him on the rails like that. Then to sit with him and take his money, well, that's just low. Agreed that your student was an a ss hole but as a teacher you can't stoop down to his level nomatter what. You should have just sent him an IM saying something like "Due to your recent attitude problem, I cannot help you in poker anymore."

Yeah plus the dude was just playing above his roll. It's not like he was shooting heroine while nailing your sister or anything.

[onlyme386 0]

So as I am trying to deflect this tirade of TILT, I locate him again and he is sitting with what I can only assume to be the last scraps of his bankroll on a 1/2 table. So I join the waiting list and whattya know I get the seat right to his left.So a few hands go by and I catch J/9os on the big blind....he is on my sb...it folds around and he jams me up to 12 bucks...LOL I auto call knowing he is on tilt and check a 9/9/A flop....he bets 10 bucks I mini raise he jams whats left and I auto call his A/7os.

I'm going to do you a favor and not humiliate you for such an ill-conceived, ridiculous conclusion. I stated clearly that he was on the SMALL blind in this particular hand....correct me if I am wrong, but if I remember correctly the 'first to act' is the player directly ahead of the big blind. O RLY ? It was a 'blind vs blind' situation. I have no clue how you arrived at the conclusion that there was any 'check' involved here. He was the small blind....I was the big blind and he raised into me in an unopened pot. I may have missed a 'check' or a 'mini raise' but the essense of this hand was that he pushed 10X the pot into me after I flopped trips...I don't have the hand history but I assure you I didn't imagine this hand out of thin air for the sake of this anecdote. I may have flat called his flop bet or mini raised with trips I really don't remember. Splitting hairs here is pointless. The fact is that is was a giftwrapped pot and he had a meltdown accusing me of 'setting him up' and intentionally putting him on tilt for the sake of 'stealing' from him. A: I am the big blindB: 'grasshoppah' is the small blindC: it folds around to grasshoppahD: he jams it up 6X and I take the flopE: the rest of the hand is self explanitoryF: have another beer or go kick a puppy

I have a pet rock. I think it's smarter than you are. If you REALLY want to avoid humiliating me, you'd be best off READING what YOU said. Then you'd realize that you can't humiliate me, only yourself. You CLEARLY said that you were the BB and that you CHECK RAISED THE FLOP against the small blind.

you know i know you're full of shit?If you're the BB, he's first to act and you don't get to check in this case. How many times have you lost your measly roll?

yeah, this is still true...

Good point. I also love the "mini raise", I'm gonna start saying that.

oh, hi. Thanks troy Mini-raise FTWMoral of the story: You're a moron, you picked a mentee b/c he was a really nice kid not b/c he had any potential as a poker player. When he didn't do exactly what you told him to do, you got butt hurt and made an ass of yourself. Then you took a small amount of money from him at a cash game on a typical hand. THEN you decided to go brag about it to all your friends on FCP so they'd think you were a badass. GG SIR, WP :D

[Kwest4chipz 0]

FCP forums is my mentor, of course i'm too old and stubborn to listen to someone tell me how to play poker. So, browsing the forum and finding information by people I deem knowledgeable in respect to what I have questions about suits me fine.edit: oh yeah, and experience...hands on in the genre's of poker that i'm interested in has also proven invaluable. Learning from observation.

[SpiderGuard 0]

Moral of the story: You're a moron, you picked a mentee b/c he was a really nice kid not b/c he had any potential as a poker player. When he didn't do exactly what you told him to do, you got butt hurt and made an ass of yourself. Then you took a small amount of money from him at a cash game on a typical hand. THEN you decided to go brag about it to all your friends on FCP so they'd think you were a badass. GG SIR, WP :D

Don't forget the part of the hand where he called a huge preflop raise with J/9 because he knew that the flop would come absolutely perfect for him to stack his mentee.

[onlyme386 0]

Don't forget the part of the hand where he called a huge preflop raise with J/9 because he knew that the flop would come absolutely perfect for him to stack his mentee.

obviously he hadn't taught his mentee how to understand the RNG, that's why he had such a big advantage. Maybe if he'd really helped the kid out and given him the code for that, the excel sheet he worked so hard on wouldn't have mattered?

[ghostlove 0]

Okay who else's first thought was:Eric Ryland??????

wait, is wasn't?

[gibler321 1]

nop

pleasssssssse

[fighter 4]

You dont need to be a winning play to mentor. Just do as i say not as i do. I use to teach kids how to play chess and boy can i relate. The best bit of advice i can give to mentors is keep all the lessons YOU give them very basic, fundamental and only get into the delicate and tricky plays when THEY ask for them. Everyboby has a different style and unless you fluke a similar soul then you are wasting breathe. Can only teach what people want to hear most of the time.

[HermanKahn 0]

FCP forums is my mentor, of course i'm too old and stubborn to listen to someone tell me how to play poker. So, browsing the forum and finding information by people I deem knowledgeable in respect to what I have questions about suits me fine.edit: oh yeah, and experience...hands on in the genre's of poker that i'm interested in has also proven invaluable. Learning from observation.

+1. There's no substitute for gathering all the information you can from good sources (2+2 archives, books, analysis programs, observing expert live play) and ruthlessly dissecting your own game from the ground up. There are a million things you can do to improve yourself: film your play, run stats, take notes and reflect on how you played every hand, consider what you might have done differently, even when you win...in a nutshell, try to be as thoughtful, objective, and honest about your weaknesses as you can. Frankly, I doubt most of the people in the "guru business" put in a tenth of the effort I do. I'm finding it hard to imagine what some undisciplined lazy f*ck could possibly have to say to me about my game that I couldn't figure out, look up, and fix myself. I'm not talking about the OP, either: I mean all the megalomaniacs out there, who, under the guise of mentoring, try to weasel their way into taking credit for someone else's success. See, when your ego reaches a critical mass, it's no longer enough to simply brag about yourself. When you vault yourself into the ranks of "a great teacher", there's no limit to the number of disciples you can brag about, as long as they do exactly what you say and play like you tell them to!To hell with being somebody's b*tch. I'll rise or fall on my own.

[Ouch-8s 4]

Why does everything have to turn into Phil Gordon bashing around here these days?

[HermanKahn 0]

Why does everything have to turn into Phil Gordon bashing around here these days?

Dude, you should have seen the paragraph I edited out. LOL

[TR1N1TY 0]

Let me just say that for me it was very satisfying watching him develop as a player. When we first started discussing poker he had a long way to go and what I wanted to do was help him avoid all the mistakes I made when I first started playing. This was not about ego or trying to force feed him the 'right way' to play by any means. But I grew impatient and frustrated when I took the time to put together a game plan for him with his best interests in mind. The cycle of depositing, winning a little and then tilting it back was getting to be ridiculous and it got to the point where I said 'you know what man...this isn't working out so well GL etc etc' but he persisted asking me over and over what he was doing wrong and why he was losing money. My intentions were not to steal his money but after he lost the pot in the cash game, the first thing he says is 'ship it back' and not even 30 seconds goes by and he starts to have a meltdown of epic proportions threatening to 'report' to Stars and calling me every name in the book in a CAP laced profanity fest. So pardon me for being slightly offended by the whole situation considering all the time and energy I had devoted to his evolution as a tourney player. It was like a slap in the face and to be honest I probably would have shipped him back that pot if he hadn't gone off the deep end and unloaded on me. The whole situation was absurd but the bottom line is he can call me every name in the book if he is tilting but actually reporting me to Stars for some BS is essentially a breach of trust in my opinion. I can forgive a lot and can handle being yelled at and insulted, but after 6 months of almost daily poker discussion I was shocked that he would go that far. I will admit that ripping on him from the rail was probably out of line but initially it was intended as more of a jab than anything mean spirited. I could tell he was tilting hard and I suppose that I enjoyed it a little bit but more than anything I'm disappointed this relationship sunk to this level. I'm sure we will talk this week because I owe him an apology as well as he owes me one. I think we were both upset and like a previous poster said a 'mentoring' relationship should be both parties learning from each other and working on communication. I suppose I'm guilty of not being very patient sometimes, but I have high expectations from someone I decide to share my insight on poker with. ok nuff said

[NoSup4U 0]

ow my eyes.Mark

[DoinSublime 0]

It's called a paragraph cupcake.

[HermanKahn 0]

So pardon me for being slightly offended by the whole situation considering all the time and energy I had devoted to his evolution as a tourney player.

Nobody's disagreeing the kid acted like a do*che. Still, if you had it to do over again, don't you think you'd be better off devoting all that time and energy to your own evolution? Whether you measure tournament success in cash or bracelets, I can't imagine you don't want more of the above for yourself. (Who doesn't?) Even if you're in the top ten percent of players in the world, you'll always be the donkey to someone. As far as I'm concerned, the harder I work toward reducing the number of people who outplay me, the better. I say forget about all the crap from this kid and aim higher.

[WhatArunAA 0]

WOW.. what a nice mentor you are.. ripping on him while he plays?.. you are a douchebag my friend.