Random Hockey Observations

[MapleLeafpoker 1,462]

And for the record, although I'm sure few (hi Bob) will believe me, I don't care that it was Boston on Montreal. I don't like to see any player laying on the ice. I didn't like seeing Bergeron on the ice and I won't like seeing the next one on the ice. Hopefully, the next one isn't more serious.BTW, broken vertebrae and serious concussion has been confirmed.

I believe you, but I also know your human, and it means more to you because it is a Hab, and you probably watched it all happen. It would be hard for me to believe there isnt a slightly larger meaning that this was a Hab like Pacioretty, vs if this happened in the AHL for a guy you had never heard about.This adds more to it for you emotionally, I dont think you would have posted as vigorously otherwise, ie Chara posts.I dont think that means you cant/wont have argued the same though.

[Skeleton Jelly 2]

Because if he doesn't have the puck then it's already against the rules. If he has the puck then the rules state he can be checked legally.

So anything goes as long as it's within the rules of the game?Do you care to comment on my flowchart and how you see things differently?

[ajs510 122]

Guys get hit behind the puck all game, every game, if not for the stanchion no one would be talking about this. FWIW, I'm horrified by the end result, guy works his ass off since he's a kid to make the NHL and now might never play the game again. It's a terrible thing, but I think approaching this like Chara meant to do anything other than interfere with his head of steam going into the offensive zone is flat out wrong. If Chara gets a serious suspension (more than a couple games max) then the NHL will be punishing the result rather than the action, which is wrong (but generally par for the course). The next NHL game you watch, pay attention to how many times a defenseman puts a forward into the boards when he's trying to go by him after the puck they just battled over, it happens all game, every game, and it's done by every team. I really hope Max is able to come back from this.

[FCP Bob 1,320]

Guys get hit behind the puck all game, every game, if not for the stanchion no one would be talking about this. FWIW, I'm horrified by the end result, guy works his ass off since he's a kid to make the NHL and now might never play the game again. It's a terrible thing, but I think approaching this like Chara meant to do anything other than interfere with his head of steam going into the offensive zone is flat out wrong. If Chara gets a serious suspension (more than a couple games max) then the NHL will be punishing the result rather than the action, which is wrong (but generally par for the course). The next NHL game you watch, pay attention to how many times a defenseman puts a forward into the boards when he's trying to go by him after the puck they just battled over, it happens all game, every game, and it's done by every team. I really hope Max is able to come back from this.

This is pretty much exactly how I feel but you said it better than I.

[digitalmonkey 929]

So anything goes as long as it's within the rules of the game?Do you care to comment on my flowchart and how you see things differently?

No, anything doesn't go as long as it's within the rules of the game because the rules are open in some instances to allow for referee judgment.Let's say Pacioretty still had the puck. I've seen hits like that (Chara's hands up high) called for a penalty numerous times.My point was that if you're robbing a bank and someone gets killed then you can expect to be charged for murder even if you never intended for someone to get killed.

[MapleLeafpoker 1,462]

The next NHL game you watch, pay attention to how many times a defenseman puts a forward into the boards when he's trying to go by him after the puck they just battled over, it happens all game, every game, and it's done by every team.

true, but I think the point here is the fact that the stanchion was there, and should players be aware of it.I honestly dont know who to "blame" in this situation, Chara or just circumstance.

[Dubey 1,035]

I strongly disagree with you on this Adam.Finishing a late check into the boards is not the same as finishing a late check at full speed directly into the turnbuckle.One is marginally outside the rules but a minor instances, the other is arguable the most dangerous thing you can do to a player on the ice. We can't just completely disregard where they were on the ice and the speed at which it happened. Chara has to be responsible for his actions. I can't even call it a freak accident. The result is pretty much what I expect when a player gets driven head first into that spot at full speed.It is like the difference between tripping up a guy at center ice for a 2 minute penalty, and tripping a guy who is chasing a puck into the endboards, and sending him head first into the boards at full speed. Same basic act, but entirely different circumstances.

[Fenxis 99]

Im trying to understand this.So, if you dont mean to hurt the guy, but he gets a concussion from a legal bodycheck (not a hit to the head), is it suspendable?What the NFL did with qb's is pretty much make new rules for them, in that you cant really hit them. I dont know if you can do that for every NHL player.

the QB example was not give an example of what kind of rules I'd like to see implemented, but rather to show how a successful league, still known for it's hitting, has been very active in cleaning up dangerous hits.

Im as big a proponent as anyone in getting rid of malicious hits, but I dont know how you do that without judging intent. Is it as simple as calling it reckless?

Could be

[gruven 530]

Chara's hearing was by phone, so it's not going to be a substantial suspension, if any at all.

[digitalmonkey 929]

Guys get hit behind the puck all game, every game, if not for the stanchion no one would be talking about this. FWIW, I'm horrified by the end result, guy works his ass off since he's a kid to make the NHL and now might never play the game again. It's a terrible thing, but I think approaching this like Chara meant to do anything other than interfere with his head of steam going into the offensive zone is flat out wrong. If Chara gets a serious suspension (more than a couple games max) then the NHL will be punishing the result rather than the action, which is wrong (but generally par for the course). The next NHL game you watch, pay attention to how many times a defenseman puts a forward into the boards when he's trying to go by him after the puck they just battled over, it happens all game, every game, and it's done by every team. I really hope Max is able to come back from this.

This is pretty much exactly how I feel but you said it better than I.

The argument that it happens all the time is as weak as the "if the stanchion wasn't there" argument.Things that happen in hockey have varying degrees of violence. I don't think this type of check happens all the time. Also, the stanchion was there. The players know it's there. It's like shoving someone into the net and then claiming their injuries wouldn't have happened if the net wasn't there.

[Babying 613]

And for the record, although I'm sure few (hi Bob) will believe me, I don't care that it was Boston on Montreal. I don't like to see any player laying on the ice. I didn't like seeing Bergeron on the ice and I won't like seeing the next one on the ice. Hopefully, the next one isn't more serious.BTW, broken vertebrae and serious concussion has been confirmed.

I am not a doctor but that sounds like some serious stuff.

[gruven 530]

Opponents of trying to take dangerous hits out of the game always use the excuse that 'players should have awareness and not put themselves in vulnerable positions'. Why, then, isn't this true of chara in this situation? Look, I never played in the NHL, never played higher than junior, but even at that level, when you hit a guy around the bench, you always knew it because you were trying to put him through the gate, over the boards or into the stantion. I dont believe for a second that chara wasn't trying to rub him out using the end of the bench. I dont think he was trying to hurt him. But that's what happened. And he should pay a heavy price for it...

[ajs510 122]

true, but I think the point here is the fact that the stanchion was there, and should players be aware of it.I honestly dont know who to "blame" in this situation, Chara or just circumstance.

I don't think blame is necessary, it's a rough game and a few times every season bad things happen to good guys. I think you look at the incident and learn from it going forward, improve the rink design wherever possible to increase player safety, punish players who willfully injure their opponents, and move on from there. I look at this incident with the same critical eye as the Steve Tuttle / Clint Malarchuk situation...Tuttle ran over someone's throat with a skate blade and nearly killed him. Negligent, perhaps, willful and malicious intent to hurt a guy, no. It's something that can happen in a game where everyone is standing on sharp knives for 60 minutes. If Tuttle had stomped his throat and then celebrated after the fact I'd have called for the guy's head on a platter...lifetime suspension style, but that's not what happened, it was an accident in a somewhat dangerous work environment.

[digitalmonkey 929]

I don't think blame is necessary, it's a rough game and a few times every season bad things happen to good guys. I think you look at the incident and learn from it going forward, improve the rink design wherever possible to increase player safety, punish players who willfully injure their opponents, and move on from there. I look at this incident with the same critical eye as the Steve Tuttle / Clint Malarchuk situation...Tuttle ran over someone's throat with a skate blade and nearly killed him. Negligent, perhaps, willful and malicious intent to hurt a guy, no. It's something that can happen in a game where everyone is standing on sharp knives for 60 minutes. If Tuttle had stomped his throat and then celebrated after the fact I'd have called for the guy's head on a platter...lifetime suspension style, but that's not what happened, it was an accident in a somewhat dangerous work environment.

I'm having trouble finding a connection between the two incidents. One was a complete accident and one was the result of a negligent act.

[ajs510 122]

I strongly disagree with you on this Adam.Finishing a late check into the boards is not the same as finishing a late check at full speed directly into the turnbuckle.One is marginally outside the rules but a minor instances, the other is arguable the most dangerous thing you can do to a player on the ice. We can't just completely disregard where they were on the ice and the speed at which it happened. Chara has to be responsible for his actions. I can't even call it a freak accident. The result is pretty much what I expect when a player gets driven head first into that spot at full speed.It is like the difference between tripping up a guy at center ice for a 2 minute penalty, and tripping a guy who is chasing a puck into the endboards, and sending him head first into the boards at full speed. Same basic act, but entirely different circumstances.

The only person who knows for sure if he intended to run Max into the turnbuckle is Chara himself, and he says he didn't. It's not like he's Ivan Drago standing over Apollo saying "if he dies, he dies", it was a hockey play that went badly and to be honest from my chair, the check wasn't that late at all...it was a puck battle, Pacioretty lost an edge in the middle of trying to scamper around the defenseman to chase the puck, and Chara (in my mind) did his job by impeding him from getting there. Horrible end result, but a hockey play. If Chara is supposed to know where he is at all times and use split second thinking to know not to run Pacioretty into the turnbuckle, isn't Pacioretty equally responsible in that split second to know that turnbuckle is there and not put himself into a bad spot?

[Skeleton Jelly 2]

My point was that if you're robbing a bank and someone gets killed then you can expect to be charged for murder even if you never intended for someone to get killed.

No, robbing the bank has nothing to do with the charge.

[ajs510 122]

I'm having trouble finding a connection between the two incidents. One was a complete accident and one was the result of a negligent act.

That's your opinion, my opinion is that both were complete, unfortunate accidents.

[digitalmonkey 929]

No, robbing the bank has nothing to do with the charge.

Yes, it does.

[Fenxis 99]

I don't think blame is necessary, it's a rough game and a few times every season bad things happen to good guys. I think you look at the incident and learn from it going forward, improve the rink design wherever possible to increase player safety, punish players who willfully injure their opponents, and move on from there. I look at this incident with the same critical eye as the Steve Tuttle / Clint Malarchuk situation...Tuttle ran over someone's throat with a skate blade and nearly killed him. Negligent, perhaps, willful and malicious intent to hurt a guy, no. It's something that can happen in a game where everyone is standing on sharp knives for 60 minutes. If Tuttle had stomped his throat and then celebrated after the fact I'd have called for the guy's head on a platter...lifetime suspension style, but that's not what happened, it was an accident in a somewhat dangerous work environment.

You need to break this down further: Chara deliberately checked the guy and he was severely hurt. Cause and effect is clear here.... Tuttle was pushed off of his feet into the goalie, he was not acting in his own free will. No cause and effect.

[digitalmonkey 929]

That's your opinion, my opinion is that both were complete, unfortunate accidents.

The outcomes were unfortunate accidents. The 6'9" 255lb Chara riding Pacioretty into the stanchion was far from an accident.

[ajs510 122]

You need to break this down further: Chara deliberately checked the guy and he was severely hurt. Cause and effect is clear here.... Tuttle was pushed off of his feet into the goalie, he was not acting in his own free will. No cause and effect.

Very fair. My contention though is that Chara's task on the ice is to hit the guy trying to get by him and not get beaten. He's supposed to make that hit along the boards, and if it was Steve Montador, Hal Gill or Matt Carkner in that spot, they make the hit as well to take the forward out of the play. Intending to take a guy out of the play is hockey, intending to take him out of the game is not. I think Chara did the former, that's all I'm saying.

[Fenxis 99]

The outcomes were unfortunate accidents. The 6'9" 255lb Chara riding Pacioretty into the stanchion was far from an accident.

Right... if Pacioretty bounced off of Chara, skating past him, into the stanchion that would be an accident. If someone pushed Chara into Pacioretty, and there was a domino effect, that would be an accident. This is absolutely not an accident.

[gruven 530]

Very fair. My contention though is that Chara's task on the ice is to hit the guy trying to get by him and not get beaten. He's supposed to make that hit along the boards, and if it was Steve Montador, Hal Gill or Matt Carkner in that spot, they make the hit as well to take the forward out of the play. Intending to take a guy out of the play is hockey, intending to take him out of the game is not. I think Chara did the former, that's all I'm saying.

Fair enough. However, the question that needs to be answered is this: is there any chance whatsoever that Chara realizes that Pacioretty is in a vulnerable position and lets up instead of hitting him high?

[ajs510 122]

The outcomes were unfortunate accidents. The 6'9" 255lb Chara riding Pacioretty into the stanchion was far from an accident.

If Chara is supposed to know where he is at all times and use split second thinking to know not to run Pacioretty into the turnbuckle, isn't Pacioretty equally responsible in that split second to know that turnbuckle is there and not put himself into a bad spot?

?

[Fenxis 99]

Very fair. My contention though is that Chara's task on the ice is to hit the guy trying to get by him and not get beaten. He's supposed to make that hit along the boards, and if it was Steve Montador, Hal Gill or Matt Carkner in that spot, they make the hit as well to take the forward out of the play. Intending to take a guy out of the play is hockey, intending to take him out of the game is not. I think Chara did the former, that's all I'm saying.

That's also, quite often, correctly called as interference.