Tough Decision In A Wpt Tournament

[Al Smooth 0]

Blinds at 800-1600/200 ante95k in my stack, 80 players left in the tournament, money bubble is at 45A guy I had doubled up raised from early position to 5k, I called with QQ and J.J. Liu called as well the big blind goes all in (the first time I'd seen him do that). The original raiser folds and I go into the tank. He had me covered, and JJ Liu was still to act behind me from the button.I asked him one question as I saw his hands shaking pretty badly as he was counting out a stack of his chips into 20 chips to verify his chip count. I said, "Are you shaking that bad because you want me to call, or are you shaking because you're scared I'm about to call?" He immediatly snapped back at me that the TDA rules now say that I can't talk to him about my hand, which I didn't do, I just asked him a question about his current state of mind.So the question is...Do you call, or do you fold your QQ preflop? What is the best decision here over eleventy brazillion hands or is it different every time because of the person excecuting the squeeze play?Mods - sorry for not using the HH converter, but this was from a live tournament and I just took the paragraph from my blog and recreated the hand.Thanks in advance guys, have at it.

[Zach6668 513]

Mods - sorry for not using the HH converter, but this was from a live tournament and I just took the paragraph from my blog and recreated the hand.

lol, when they create a converter for live hands, I'll get mad

[mk 11]

need some more info. stack size of BB, stack size of J.J. please.

[trystero 0]

need some more info. stack size of BB, stack size of J.J. please.

I looked at Al's blog, and the BB has him covered. It's safe to say that we're ahead of JJ, who probably has a middle pair, because with so much money in the pot he's probably not flatcalling with KK or AA. Could be, though, who knows.It's a pretty tough spot, but we've still got a lot of chips behind. I muck it, begrudgingly. Besides UTG we've all shown some weakness so he could be stealing, but it's still a tough call to make when we're so deep.

[ChrisRichey 1]

I think this is a fairly easy fold. If we fold, we still have an M of over 21, and best case scenario is he has AK. I can't really see him doing this with TT/JJ with an EP raiser. If we were shorter the hand would have played a lot differently obv, but I don't think we need to be flipping coins with a decent stack at this point.

[Al Smooth 0]

need some more info. stack size of BB, stack size of J.J. please.

Sorry, I thought I had that in there...after looking I do say that "he has me covered" meaning the BB, but there's no way you'd have been able to decipher that.BB had about 117, JJ had about 55 at that point.

[tskillz187 0]

I fear shaking hands more than anything. I would have thought about folding anyways, but if I see him shaking his hands after pushing all in I have to think he has AA or KK. I doubt he would pull the squeeze play if he was not very comfortable playing live and his hands shaking wouldn't be an issue.

[Al Smooth 0]

The BB was Paul McCaffery. So the guy is a name pro, and didn't start shaking until he had to count out his chips into 20 stacks. He seemed real together until then.

[mk 11]

his snapping back at you after you try to chat him up is bizarre, and to me would indicate that he doesn't really want a call. seems like someone who's really strong is often much more cordial and pleasant.i think AK is definitely in his range, and with the utg raise and call from J.J. i'd be thinking that some of his outs were probably dead if he's holding that hand. it's such a huge overbet...117k into a 20k pot. i'd be a little worried about J.J. but not nearly as much as i would've been about utg.with all the info at the table i don't know what i'd do, but with the info you've given here i think i'd probably call.

[CobaltBlue 662]

his snapping back at you after you try to chat him up is bizarre, and to me would indicate that he doesn't really want a call. seems like someone who's really strong is often much more cordial and pleasant.i think AK is definitely in his range

I agree with the above.

[gobears 0]

M>20 and you have over 50 BBs left if you fold. Villain has you covered and JJ to act behind you. His "shaking hands" and angry remark would seem to be reverse tells to me - he's acting unconfortable when he really wants a call from you, more likely since he's a pro.I fold here

[caribstv 0]

I like the way how everyone just Folds QQ.....just not realstic..... It does look like AK.. could be JJ, also... But thats the issues we run into with a decent hand and flat calling... Check it out.. If u had reraised preflop with your BIg Pair most likely JJ wouldn;t have called and if the big blind prob would have just called or pushed but you'll know after a raise and reraise and then all In you can lay it down

[Al Smooth 0]

I like the way how everyone just Folds QQ.....just not realstic..... It does look like AK.. could be JJ, also... But thats the issues we run into with a decent hand and flat calling... Check it out.. If u had reraised preflop with your BIg Pair most likely JJ wouldn;t have called and if the big blind prob would have just called or pushed but you'll know after a raise and reraise and then all In you can lay it down

not everything is as black and white as you seem to want it to be. If you were to re-raise there, it would be in the 10-15k raise variety leaving you on the hook for 15-20k invested in the hand leaving about 80k in your stack. The BB would have called, and after getting priced in, so would the original raiser making the pot size from 45k to 60k depending on the size of the raise. If the flop comes Jack high, are you then committed to this pot? What if it comes K high and goes check check to you? Then what? Look, I raise 99% of the time with QQ from late position, but this hand was the 1% of the time I didn't because of the history that the original raiser and I had that day of the tournament. I thought I could extract about 10k more chips from him after the flop if the flop was cooperative...unfortunately the BB squeezed.

[Acid_Knight 2]

I'm going to agree with the assessment that a reraise preflop here is much better for you in the long run. It puts maximum pressure on the players behind you and it helps to define your hand much more. The idea of letting players into the pot behind me when I am already playing against an UTG raiser who may or may not have me beaten (you really don't have enough information to tell, after all) is a dicey proposition.I have no problem with your play, but you put yourself in a difficult situation. If the player in the BB knows what he is doing, he could easily have a hand like AK or JJ here, if he sensed any weakness in the UTG player's raise. After all, you and J.J. kind of declared weakness by default after you flat called his raise. The BB probably (and usually correctly) thinks that the biggest hand out there opened the pot from UTG.I'm on the fence about what to do here. Arguments can be made for both sides. I guess that my play would be based on how the table was playing and how I felt my chances were. If I had good control over the table and I thought that I had an edge, then I would obviously fold since you have a lot of chips left. If I felt that I was likely to be outplayed becuase the players were better, then I'd lean towards calling.I think your assessment of what would happen if you reraised is inaccurate here. If you reraise, the BB will need a big hand to play since there has been an UTG raise and a reraise. Many players will dump AK here, rather then get trapped (they don't know that UTG is done with the hand, afterall) for a big bet and have to play OOP for the whole hand. Obviously if the BB or UTG plays with you after you have reraised, you must be a little weary of what they hold. I think that if you reraised to $15,000 preflop that you would get all of the information that you needed to play the hand out the rest of the way.

[SlackerInc 0]

I'm going to agree with the assessment that a reraise preflop here is much better for you in the long run. It puts maximum pressure on the players behind you and it helps to define your hand much more. The idea of letting players into the pot behind me when I am already playing against an UTG raiser who may or may not have me beaten (you really don't have enough information to tell, after all) is a dicey proposition.I have no problem with your play, but you put yourself in a difficult situation. If the player in the BB knows what he is doing, he could easily have a hand like AK or JJ here, if he sensed any weakness in the UTG player's raise. After all, you and J.J. kind of declared weakness by default after you flat called his raise. The BB probably (and usually correctly) thinks that the biggest hand out there opened the pot from UTG.I'm on the fence about what to do here. Arguments can be made for both sides. I guess that my play would be based on how the table was playing and how I felt my chances were. If I had good control over the table and I thought that I had an edge, then I would obviously fold since you have a lot of chips left. If I felt that I was likely to be outplayed becuase the players were better, then I'd lean towards calling.I think your assessment of what would happen if you reraised is inaccurate here. If you reraise, the BB will need a big hand to play since there has been an UTG raise and a reraise. Many players will dump AK here, rather then get trapped (they don't know that UTG is done with the hand, afterall) for a big bet and have to play OOP for the whole hand. Obviously if the BB or UTG plays with you after you have reraised, you must be a little weary of what they hold. I think that if you reraised to $15,000 preflop that you would get all of the information that you needed to play the hand out the rest of the way.

I agree with all of this (including that it's a tough decision either way), except that I don't think an M of 21 is all that deep a stack. But then I've recently become an acolyte of Arnold Snyder, who advocates for 14-20M (which we're very close to) "if not first in, raise or reraise all-in with 77 to AA, as well as AK, AQ, AJ" which is anathema to most people here.Supposedly the shaking hands thing is a tell of a very strong hand, but personally my hands have shaken when I've pushed and wondered if I were beat. ::shrug::

[copernicus 0]

I would raise the first bet and if someone comes over the top its a much easier fold. Just calling here gives great odds to hands behind to follow along with hands that can cost you a lot of money if they hit.As played its a very tough decision, as you say. In an online low stakes tourney its an easy call. Here it could be a squeeze (which you invited with the call) or a lower pair, or AK, and it could be AA, KK. Overall you probably have calling odds against that range, but I dont think I risk the tourney here.Edit: I don't like the OPs reasoning for not raising. If hero is in later position with a few folds after the UTG raise I might buy playing him to extract more chips given the history with him, but with that many hands, including a pro in the blinds, flat calling is an invitation to get outplayed. Risking the extra 10k can save your stack.

[YBravo 0]

As far as the snappy reply, it seems more likely that a pro would be able to use this as a tactic, in tempo, to try to extract a call. If it were an unknown player, then I would lean towards it being a natural response due to the quality of his hand. Basically, because it's a pro, I'm devaluing what he's saying and focusing more on the bet. It's definitely a squeeze play, but I think the most important factor is our stack size. I know it feels wimpy, but folding is probably the best play unless you feel at a severe disadvantage skill-wise to the other players at your table and you need to have a gigantic stack. Somehow I think you probably don't feel that way. We have tons and tons and tons of time to find a better situation, and plenty of chips to still make a good run at 1st place.

[RDog 0]

Fold. Still in good shape. I would say AK, AA or KK. AK is an obvious shoving hand here. He also could have AA or KK and is hoping you or UTG has JJ or QQ and will make the call, assuming he has AK.

[XXEddie 0]

Fold, most likely either AA, KK, QQ or AK

[Al Smooth 0]

For those who didn't read my blog, I went into the tank for about half of my break and eventually folded. I felt I had enough in my stack to pick a better spot, however in the next level after the break the guy shoved in numerous times, and twice had to show down absolute crap...no pair, no draw, no hope (one of the times it was 7-3 off, post flop shove on a check raise). With the informatin I had at the time I felt I had to fold, if I had the information gained in the next level, I call in a heartbeat.Personally, this fold put me on tilt for the next 90 minutes.

[RDog 0]

For those who didn't read my blog, I went into the tank for about half of my break and eventually folded. I felt I had enough in my stack to pick a better spot, however in the next level after the break the guy shoved in numerous times, and twice had to show down absolute crap...no pair, no draw, no hope (one of the times it was 7-3 off, post flop shove on a check raise). With the informatin I had at the time I felt I had to fold, if I had the information gained in the next level, I call in a heartbeat.Personally, this fold put me on tilt for the next 90 minutes.

Yep, sucks. Given the information you got later on, I would call. But.......can only do what you can with the information you have at the time.

[RISEorFall 0]

Personally, this fold put me on tilt for the next 90 minutes.

this seems like a good reason to not fold.if you go on tilt by folding and wondering, dont fold.also, id pick a different game.

[tskillz187 0]

this seems like a good reason to not fold.if you go on tilt by folding and wondering, dont fold.also, id pick a different game.

HAHHAHAAH. I think he tilted after seeing what the guy played, had he known that the guy was going to show weak hands after, he would have called. Al why didn't you request a table change?

[Al Smooth 0]

this seems like a good reason to not fold.if you go on tilt by folding and wondering, dont fold.also, id pick a different game.

lol, You and me should play big bank takes little bank....you suggested a different game, I get to pick right?

I think he tilted after seeing what the guy played, had he known that the guy was going to show weak hands after, he would have called.

At least someone got my point.

[caribstv 0]

I like the way how everyone just Folds QQ.....just not realstic..... It does look like AK.. could be JJ, also... But thats the issues we run into with a decent hand and flat calling...