400nl With Kings

[bdc30 0]

Absolute PokerNo Limit Holdem Ring gameBlinds: $2/$46 playersConverterStack sizes:UTG: $77UTG+1: $186.50Hero: $210.40Button: $758.60SB: $274.70BB: $801.20Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is CO with K K UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, Hero raises to $16, Button calls, BB calls, UTG raises all-in $77, UTG+1 folds, Hero.....

[ThreeBet 0]

Any reads?The folding kings preflop has been thrown around here for ever .... I push even though the limp reraise is scary (reads???) and hope the BB who has us covered throws it away.

[bdc30 0]

No reads at all, joined absolute two days ago for some rakeback finally, and juuust started playing 400max after being on suicide watch after playing 6max 2/4 LHE for the first day.

[pokerfan1080 0]

Reads on the button and BB are important here.The limp then push from UTG is interesting, any chance he's on tilt?But, I think I'd push.

[Pot Odds RAC 23]

Absolutely push to isolate and limit your exposure to the $77. UTG is the only one who may have Aces to crush you. Button & SB called the $16 but can only suck out, get them out.

[mtdesmoines 3]

Absolute PokerNo Limit Holdem Ring gameBlinds: $2/$46 playersConverterStack sizes:UTG: $77UTG+1: $186.50Hero: $210.40Button: $758.60SB: $274.70BB: $801.20Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is CO with K K UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, Hero raises to $16, Button calls, BB calls, UTG raises all-in $77, UTG+1 folds, Hero.....

You've got $210 in a $400 game with only the blinds in between you and a $77 all in. I push. If one of the blinds thinks they're priced in and they hit or the have AA, those are the breaks. I would almost expect you to be looking at QQ from UTG.

[Mattnxtc 0]

i push...utg could be doing with with a wide range since he is a short stack hopin to push you all out with his big reraise

[simo_8ball 0]

I say call. If you can entice someone in behind you thats great. We aren't particularly deep, so we aren't giving sufficient odds for anyone to call behind us.

[Bubba83 0]

Call preflop and get ready to push any flop that doesn't have an ace. If the flop does have an ace and the BB pushes or something, we can fold. The worst situation that could happen is button comes along preflop and then an ace flops, because we wouldn't have position and check/folding would be quite weak, really wouldn't know what to do there at all, but I don't think this situation happens often enough to want to isolate preflop.I don't understand why we'd want to isolate in this situation AT ALL. It's not like we're deep stacked and could lose all our money by letting someone try and hit a set on us. With the price they're getting and how much you have behind, they'd be making the mistake calling with like TT here and trying to flop a set. Hell if the board comes all low and you get a guy to come along with TT or JJ or QQ he's calling your push anyway and you're making even more.One more reason to just call... They might think you're on like AK or even AQ and try to push QQ/JJ/TT to get that extra dead money in the pot when it could be a race. If we entice this move with a flat call it's awesome.

[bdc30 0]

Long and short of it, I shoveled, both others folded. UTG showed AK offsuit, no ace hit and I took it down. I was just wondering if I may have made more letting the other guys in for $61 more, and insta-shoving any non-ace flop...

[No_Neck 0]

Long and short of it, I shoveled, both others folded. UTG showed AK offsuit, no ace hit and I took it down. I was just wondering if I may have made more letting the other guys in for $61 more, and insta-shoving any non-ace flop...

yeah but then someone calls with QJ and you flop top set and he has a straight draw, calls off the rest of his chips and you go broke. I like eliminating people myself.

[DrawingDeadInDM 0]

Pretty easy push.

[simo_8ball 0]

Long and short of it, I shoveled, both others folded. UTG showed AK offsuit, no ace hit and I took it down. I was just wondering if I may have made more letting the other guys in for $61 more, and insta-shoving any non-ace flop...

I'm certain you make more by calling than pushing. No hand has correct odds to call to outdraw you, and you encourage more mistakes by calling.

[Money022 0]

I'm certain you make more by calling than pushing. No hand has correct odds to call to outdraw you, and you encourage more mistakes by calling.

Makes a good point, but I still favor pushing. Then again I'm weak/tight.

[DrawingDeadInDM 0]

I'm certain you make more by calling than pushing. No hand has correct odds to call to outdraw you, and you encourage more mistakes by calling.

This is an easy push. We have a ~50 bb stack and the push infront of us is ~19 bb's. Why would we call? So we can 'value push' a flop? What's gonna call on the flop that won't call preflop? AJ on a J high flop, maybe? That's the only reasonable scenario, and I can't see too many players calling that size push, with a call infront, with AJ. Maybe a hand like 77 on a 6 high flop? Meh..maybe, but that scenario in of itself isn't happening enough to justify cold calling.

[iggymcfly 0]

Not sure if you noticed this DDIM, but the reraiser is all-in. He can't call a push. The only question is whether we want to try and let the button and the big blind in. The answer IMO is absolutely, yes. We'll almost never get called on a four-bet push (except by AA), and we'd really like a call on the reraise with the price given. Also, since we weren't the initial reraiser, our strength is disguised and any callers should stack off if they catch a piece of the flop. "Isolating" in this situation is awful IMO.

[myenemy 0]

I like the push. Its not matter, necessarily, of getting people to make more mistakes, I simply do not want to see an A flop. Even if an opponent has QQ-TT.To the PF callers, on a flop containing an A, a OOP player checks, whats your bet?

[DrawingDeadInDM 0]

Not sure if you noticed this DDIM, but the reraiser is all-in. He can't call a push. The only question is whether we want to try and let the button and the big blind in. The answer IMO is absolutely, yes. We'll almost never get called on a four-bet push (except by AA), and we'd really like a call on the reraise with the price given. Also, since we weren't the initial reraiser, our strength is disguised and any callers should stack off if they catch a piece of the flop. "Isolating" in this situation is awful IMO.

I get all that, but why call just to push any flop? I didn't make myself clear, I guess, because, my point was, we cold call and either/or both button and big blind come along. Our play is to push then, right? And what's going to call our push on the flop that we beat? TT on a 9 high flop? Maybe, probably? AJ on a J high flop? Maybe so. Also, any set, Any ace if an ace flops, AA, any funky two pair hands like QJs, JTs, T9s. I guess I'd rather just push preflop and let them make the decision then and there. What if Big Blind bets enough to put us all in on any flop? Can we fold? Should we fold? No? Even if an Ace flops?Edit: Again, we have HALF of a buyin here, why are we trying to get creative? When you're short stacked, play preflop poker.

[Bubba83 0]

And what's going to call our push on the flop that we beat? TT on a 9 high flop? Maybe, probably? AJ on a J high flop? Maybe so. Also, any set, Any ace if an ace flops, AA, any funky two pair hands like QJs, JTs, T9s.

If they have hands like QJs, JTs, T9s, we've made so much money by allowing them to incorrectly call preflop when they don't make two pair or a great draw.

Edit: Again, we have HALF of a buyin here, why are we trying to get creative? When you're short stacked, play preflop poker.

And... We aren't getting creative, we're getting value... This isn't a tournament.We are playing preflop poker with our half buy-in, preflop poker while on a semi-short stack doesn't just mean shoving when we think we have the best hand all the time. Most of what we're involved with in this hand happens preflop. There's a good article on a hand much like this one in CardPlayer somewhere where the writer (I think he was a pro) pushed all-in. He later decided his push was incorrect since he would have been getting value by allowing another player to call incorrectly or get one of them to make a move to get dead money in the pot and get heads up preflop with the all-in guy.Maybe I'll try and find it, it's from a few years ago.

[DrawingDeadInDM 0]

If they have hands like QJs, JTs, T9s, we've made so much money by allowing them to incorrectly call preflop when they don't make two pair or a great draw.And... We aren't getting creative, we're getting value... This isn't a tournament. There's a good article on a hand much like this one in CardPlayer somewhere where the writer (I think he was a pro) pushed all-in. He later decided his push was incorrect since he would have been getting value by allowing another player to call incorrectly or get one of them to make a move to get dead money in the pot and get heads up preflop with the all-in guy.Maybe I'll try and find it, it's from a few years ago.

Ever played 2/5 NL with a 200 min/max buy in?

Edit: Again, we have HALF of a buyin here, why are we trying to get creative? When you're short stacked, play preflop poker.

[DrawingDeadInDM 0]

By the way, both the button and big blind have stacks > $750. If we cold call 77, with their 16 already in, the button will be getting ~3:1 (186:61) and the big blind, if the button calls, will be getting ~4:1(263:61). We're not really going to be pricing them out of anything by cold calling 77. If anything, we'll be enticing them into playing a monstrous side pot.

[Bubba83 0]

They don't both call often enough to worry about it. And even if they do both call, what's the big deal? We still have a great hand that we're going to be good with on most flops. Also, if they both call, it makes it even easier to get away from if an ace flops.

[DrawingDeadInDM 0]

They don't both call often enough to worry about it. And even if they do both call, what's the big deal? We still have a great hand that we're going to be good with on most flops. Also, if they both call, it makes it even easier to get away from if an ace flops.

I guess we'll just agree to disagree. I think a push is pretty standard with a 50 BB stack facing a 20 BB push and two players to act behind me.

[Bubba83 0]

I would really like to hear Daniel's thoughts on this hand. I hope he picks it for Daniel on Strategy sometime

[DonkSlayer 1]

I guess we'll just agree to disagree. I think a push is pretty standard with a 50 BB stack facing a 20 BB push and two players to act behind me.

Another point I haven't seen yet is that we're basically pot-commited if we call and someone else comes along too. I would much rather get this heads up than play a four-way pot with the big stacks getting neat odds to stick around for their two-pair...and if they want to play, make them play for $211.