Question For The Players 18-26 Years Old

[Tiltinagain 973]

Sorry to hear about your mom. Good points are made here. Enjoy your life as much as you can but also save for the future. You don't want to spend and live like you are going to die tomorrow but you don't want to deprive yourself of fun either.

It happened 13 years ago, but I appreciate it.And thanks for simplifying my point...I was a little wordy there lol

[finztotheleft 0]

depends who u ask. there are followers of aristotle who states while money is neccasary, there are more important things. Once you have enough money you should stop earning it, and focus on higher goods

Socrates disagrees

[finztotheleft 0]

Um, No, you don't "know for a fact" anything that will be happening this year, much less when you're 50. My mom died at 43 years old just three months after being diagnosed with cancer. Think about that. She was happy as could be, just built her dream house, found out she had cancer the first week of September and was dead the first week of Dec.My point is this. Tomorrow is promised to no one. If I were one of these 20 something kids with the skill they have I'd be playing poker for a living and traveling around the world too. More power to them I say. Planning for the future is great but it's just that...a PLAN. Plans don't always go the way we think they will. Things out of our control can drastically affect the best laid "plans".Live today like it's your last and "plan" for what to do tomorrow, next week, next month, next year, 5 years out etc... but don't take anything for granted. Do what you want to do now, while you know you are physically able and have the money to do so.I'm rooting for you guys

Well said

[antistuff 0]

Um, No, you don't "know for a fact" anything that will be happening this year, much less when you're 50. My mom died at 43 years old just three months after being diagnosed with cancer. Think about that. She was happy as could be, just built her dream house, found out she had cancer the first week of September and was dead the first week of Dec.My point is this. Tomorrow is promised to no one. If I were one of these 20 something kids with the skill they have I'd be playing poker for a living and traveling around the world too. More power to them I say. Planning for the future is great but it's just that...a PLAN. Plans don't always go the way we think they will. Things out of our control can drastically affect the best laid "plans".Live today like it's your last and "plan" for what to do tomorrow, next week, next month, next year, 5 years out etc... but don't take anything for granted. Do what you want to do now, while you know you are physically able and have the money to do so.I'm rooting for you guys

im sorry about your loss but im happy for you that you could take that and gain such a positive attitude about everything from it.

[tskillz187 0]

Great discussion in this thread, I wish there were more topics that resonated this much passion each way. I think Athekevlar already stated my main point, but I'd like to rehash it. This should be a cautionary thread to the people who aren't yet successful. I feel like JC has spent a lot of time saying that his pursuit is worthwhile and that he will be fine and I agree with that.It's the kids that are ending the year +10k or somewhere around there that think they can do this as a profession that need the biggest warning. Myself, I ended the year +18k if I dropped out of college and quit my job to chase being a poker player right now it would be ridiculous. Even if I could safely estimate that I'd make 60k in poker this year if I dropped out I think it would be a huge mistake. Real life industries don't take too kindly to professional poker players. Want a car? Cool, hope you can pay for it all. House? Got 90-120k to put down? It's just soooo hard to live a normal life even if you are moderately successful (read: +$40-80k) each year. I think there are SO many kids that think they can make it in poker without having any real past success. I'm 22 and maybe 2-3 years ago I thought I was going to be the greatest player ever, I mean I beat all my friends, I won at the casino and I was mildly successful online. What could stop me? Time in this game humbles you. Am I better now than I was then? You betcha. I'm still very confident in my game too, but I've also lived through the reality. I don't think I have some innate ability at poker, all of the skills that I think I have I could teach or can be learned through playing. If I step back and think about my poker game through that lens, it seemed pretty clear to me that I should stick to the normal path. Sure I still have illusions (visions?) of grandeur and hope to hit it huge someday and I love playing tournaments, but I wouldn't bank on it. The test for the people that want to play for a living is to sustain being a winner. It doesn't matter if you hit the circuit now or two years from now, make sure that you can actually play this game successfully for a living.

[Montana 0]

here's my question/statement: What kind of life do you younger guys have playing so much online poker? Where is the social interaction? The job skill development? I'm not judging...at least I'm trying not to. And this is a poker forum. But I'm very concerned that many of you are wasting your prime developmental years, not only socially but economically, by basically isolating yourselves in front of a computer screen, trying to make a living playing poker. I understand the thought that you are 'chasing a dream'...I get that. But you guys are SO young, its easy to lose perspective. The concern is you'll look in the mirror on your 30th birthday and realize you just pissed away your 20s doing something that doesn't translate into the 'real' world....and you won't be a 'pro'...and you'll still be living in your parent's basement. That's just my opinion...I'm sure it will go over like a red-hot poker up one's arse. And I'm not trying to piss in anyone's cornflakes. But its a legitimate concern of mine as I read the various forums and poker blogs. Just think about it. Good luck.

Nice post, good intentions! I have played poker for over 30 years in Las Vegas. Difficult to believe for people (like you) who are trained that the stock market is "investing" and poker is ahhhh "gambling" (sorry poker is a game of skill, a math game) - but poker is beatable. If one treats poker as a "job", and has the discipline to manage oneself, keeps accurate records, a poker player can make a decent living. ($ 50,000 to $ 100,000 cash per year) It is difficult to put a price on working for oneself, controlling ones own hours and not being a slave to the system. A poker player can get a good idea, fairly quickly, if they can "make it" in the poker world, with accurate records.I once saw a description of a poker player as a salmon swimming upstream, attempting to avoid all the death traps. (sports betting, ego bets, drinking, drugs, the pit, losing perspective of money) You raise some interesting points, playing poker for a living is not for everyone. A poker player has to enjoy what they do, be able to travel and go where the best games are. I do not know any successful tournament poker players. I know several tournament poker players that are "shooting stars", (temporarily wealthy) but I have not met any that have survived the "trap" of tournament poker on the long term. Remember, this "new tournament era" is just a bubble and tournament poker is at its peak now. (check the participation records for tournament growth)Today is a new world, and a few tournament poker players are getting "outside income" from endorsements - that income is a "come on" to keep the tournament poker pools going - so the "house", whether it is the internet, or brick and mortar, can keep their income coming in.I do not know of any games where the participants can "fade" a 10% house drop and a 40% IRS drop.Just food for thought for the younger generation.

[Dratj 0]

Nice post, good intentions! I have played poker for over 30 years in Las Vegas. Difficult to believe for people (like you) who are trained that the stock market is "investing" and poker is ahhhh "gambling" (sorry poker is a game of skill, a math game) - but poker is beatable.

Fulltime? What limits?

[Montana 0]

Fulltime? What limits?

For the past 4 years, I have played N/L 10/20 Blinds in the Bellagio. For the last few months, I have been scouting different areas. I travel to tournaments to play the side games. I have basically played 20/40 limit or higher forever. This generation seems to think No Limit Holdem is new. Wrong...We use to play in Las Vegas 20+ years ago, but Pot Limit Holdem was the game for quite awhile. When hold-em died off and the only games were limit holdem, we played Pot Limit Omaha. My career includes playing with many world class players/champions, many who are no longer with us.

[TwoFourOffsuit 0]

Still no ral answers I see defending the option of playing for a "living" instead of getting a real job. Someone please give us an example of being able to afford the real world as an average pp.

The average poker player can't. That's the thing.Save for the little online gimmicks like rakebacks and such... for there to be financially successful players, there have to be a lot of losers to take money from. You can be a winning player, but it's very hard to do as a full-time primary source of income.

[PokerChiq 0]

Every three months, I see a thread like this pop up on various poker forums... so here I go...*****chgocubs99, I am going to reply to this thread, by answering your valid questions, as they apply to me. First of all, I am 26 years old. I am a Professional Poker Player and have been one for the past two years. I do not live in my parents basement, in fact I rent a nice apartment near Central London."I've been waiting for this thread my whole life. I have a couple of questions with more possibly to come later...1) It seems like the health insurance/401K issue has yet to be addressed. I would like to hear how some people are dealing with this... chgocubs99"I live in the United Kingdom. We have free health care here, but I also pay a little bit extra each month in health insurance to Bupa Health Care (£18 a month). This is all made easier by the fact that I don't pay tax on my poker income.Also, as standard, I save all of my steady rakeback/propping pay each month (adds up to approx 20% of my total income) into a Tax Free Savings Account, and live off my poker profits. The health insurance payment, and the regular savings are what I would be doing regardless of what my job was at the time. It simply so happens that my job right now is playing poker."2) I haven't heard a great response to the questions being raised about what will be done when a "real job" may be needed after the boom dies down/online poker is banned. What will your resume look like? Are you simply not worried about it because of the luxuries afforded by your current lifestyle?... chgocubs99"When the poker boom dies down, I will make my living from the internet in another form. Currently, I build websites (self taught) and market them. This presently earns me a small but regular affiliate income, working 1 hour a day from home just for fun. So if the poker boom were to drastically burst, I would essentially take the business skills that I have developed from playing poker (money management, calculated risk taking, accounting, market research) and apply them to a more conventional business format (website building and marketing).My resume will look as though I have worked as a self employed Web Entrepreneur for a few years (with affiliate cheques from Google Adsense and Clickbank to prove it, complete with actual web design skills).I do not have a degree, nor do I intend to get one. The last time I did a full time job, I was 17 years old, and my very last 'pay-check' job (when I was 22 yrs old) was working as a part-time cleaner as I drifted on and off job seekers allowance (government welfare). Finally the government got sick of me, and kicked me off welfare for good, and for that I thank them. Because essentially, I was forced to learn how to be self-reliant financially. So as a result, I then worked building up an income as a self-employed mystery shopper building up a body of regular work contacts through shopping companies. During that time, I discovered sports arbitrage betting (risk free betting) and from there discovered casino bonuses. I then began to earn my living clearing casino bonuses for a year or so, before I discovered poker. Ever since 2002, my intention has been to stay self employed. So my focus has been on building and learning actual business skills (I regularly study sales/marketing books and materials), which I can put to work. By playing poker, I can afford the spare time AND money needed to press foward with my business plans.Already, because of my web marketing work, I have been paid to design two websites, as well as do some web consulting for business associates (my associates are not poker related at all, I created these oppurtunities through my attending business seminars). Also, last July, I stumbled across a magazine advert requesting writers to send in their poker articles in exchange for payment. So for fun, I wrote two poker strategy articles and sent them to the magazine. Both articles were accepted straight away and I was then asked to write more. I have since had four more of my articles accepted by them, and plan to write more in the future anytime I have a spare moment. Writing for an income doesn't really interest me, but is always there as an option.*****So you see, poker does not and has not stopped me from living a full and rounded lifestyle. Nor will it stop me from living just as full a life in the future. And simply because I play poker now, does not mean that I am destined to go broke (nor am I sitting huddled in my parents basement).However, I realise that there are quite a few pro poker twentysomethings who aren't planning ahead and are living it up today as though there is no tommorrow. But that 'seat of the pants' living isn't the result of their career choice (playing poker), but the result of their own shortsighted view of their current income. And trust me, you will find these 'seat of the pants' twentysomething kids on the stock trading floor, in sales/marketing, law firms... basically in ANY job where a twentysomething can earn a lot of money very quickly (but sadly hasn't built the life experience to learn how to manage that money properly).So don't blame poker if some of these $50k a year multitabling kids are broke with nowhere to go in four years time. Poker didn't do that to them, their own personal lack of fore-sight did...

[Dratj 0]

Good response Pokerchig, interesting life that you have led there. From welfare to poker player/webdesigner. Why did you stop the sports arbitrage?

[Dratj 0]

For the past 4 years, I have played N/L 10/20 Blinds in the Bellagio. For the last few months, I have been scouting different areas. I travel to tournaments to play the side games. I have basically played 20/40 limit or higher forever. This generation seems to think No Limit Holdem is new. Wrong...We use to play in Las Vegas 20+ years ago, but Pot Limit Holdem was the game for quite awhile. When hold-em died off and the only games were limit holdem, we played Pot Limit Omaha. My career includes playing with many world class players/champions, many who are no longer with us.

You noted in your previous post that a pro poker player should expect to earn 50k to 100k a year. I intuitively would think that a 10/20 nl player would make more than that?

[chgocubs99 0]

Excellent points and great answer, PokerChig. Thank you.

[PokerChiq 0]

Good response Pokerchig, interesting life that you have led there. From welfare to poker player/webdesigner. Why did you stop the sports arbitrage?

Well, in sports arbitrage you need a relatively large bankroll to earn a decent return. And at the time I only had a £200 starting roll. I got that startup bankroll up to £800 or so in about four months, through sports arbitrage... by which time I had discovered casino bonuses. Through the casino bonuses I tripled that £800 in less than six weeks, so I stuck to the casinos for a good long while instead. I still do the odd sports arb now and then (as part of clearing some of the larger lucrative sportsbook bonus offers), but that is more because I would like to keep the 'skill' rather than because it gives me a good income. Poker is much more profitable (and waaaaaaaay more interesting) for me right now...

[No_Neck 0]

They are probably 12 hour days

they are 10 hour days, but the job sucks major monkey dong. The people that run the business are morons, and the customers think they are Linsey Lohan because they have a black card. It sucks, but soon enough I will be on my own.

[Doug 0]

PokerChiq you said that you could afford private health care because you don't pay tax on your poker income. I'm not a textbook on government legislation but don't you have to pay gambling tax on your earnings?(I am from the UK aswell)

[PokerChiq 0]

PokerChiq you said that you could afford private health care because you don't pay tax on your poker income. I'm not a textbook on government legislation but don't you have to pay gambling tax on your earnings?(I am from the UK aswell)

On October 2001, betting tax was abolished (you used to have to pay 9% tax on all winnings). So as a result, whether you are a professional or not, in the UK you don't pay tax on your winnings. Instead the government takes the tax from the bookies (I can still remember the uproar from the bookies when they found out they had to pay some 40% (i think) extra tax on their profits to make up for it). So for now and the forseeable future, England is a professional gamblers tax haven...

[Doug 0]

Well thanks for the info in that case =)