Question For The Players 18-26 Years Old

[JoeWalsh 0]

they understand that playing online doesn't translate well in a right wing corporate America. Coming into your first job interview and telling them you played online poker won't go over well with any management looking for a responsible individual.

Thats not entirely true. I work at an Investment Bank and part of the topics we discussed was how I had been sustaining myself from poker whilst on the job hunt. These people live for models and risk analyst so they ate it all up. It wasn't key to me getting the job but the fact that poker was huge part of my life was taken as a positive, not negative.

[No_Neck 0]

he might be, he might not be.i have friends in the world of stocks...usually decent but not great poker players.i know a poker pro who tried to become a trader but couldn't hack it and went back to rounding. ended up being the best decision because he does make 6-figures a year. although i don't ever hear him saying it's "easy". i think there's a lot more variables in the stock world than there is in poker. in poker your deck will always have 52 cards (unless there's wild cards...yayah). stock world can change in a heartbeat.what the hell was i trying to say? oh yeah...maybe, maybe not. so many words...so little to say...god dammit!!

There are a ton of variables in poker that are not related to the 52-card deck as well. Table selections, money management, making people have fun while emptying out their wallet ect. My real point is that if someone has the ability to focus on something whole heartedly then there is a very real shot that they have a decent shot at making it in whatever field they choose. Being able to dedicate yourself to something (anything) is the real way to make it. How many people try things and do a half assed job and then say "Bah I knew it wouldn't work" and then move on with their menial existence. Anyone that says go to college and get a decent job and live out your life in tedium is doesn’t understand what life is about. If you want to be safe so be it, but expect a boring life.The most important lesson in poker is that if you take something serious and work at it you will be a success, business, poker, education, whatever. (I am done my crappy job, now it is time to drink)

[Dratj 0]

Who said anything about being easy? You don't think that if JC put as much time into investing as he did into poker he wouldn't be successful?

Temper, temper. I didn't say such a thing. I'm a big fan of JC's. He's just making it sound too simple. I've played poker and I've played the stock market. There's more to the stock market than there is to poker. That's all. Like fleung said, he may or may not be successful in stocks, only time will tell.

[Dratj 0]

There are a ton of variables in poker that are not related to the 52-card deck as well. Table selections, money management, making people have fun while emptying out their wallet ect. My real point is that if someone has the ability to focus on something whole heartedly then there is a very real shot that they have a decent shot at making it in whatever field they choose. Being able to dedicate yourself to something (anything) is the real way to make it. How many people try things and do a half assed job and then say "Bah I knew it wouldn't work" and then move on with their menial existence. Anyone that says go to college and get a decent job and live out your life in tedium is doesn’t understand what life is about. If you want to be safe so be it, but expect a boring life.The most important lesson in poker is that if you take something serious and work at it you will be a success, business, poker, education, whatever. (I am done my crappy job, now it is time to drink)

What do you do for a living?

[Dratj 0]

i think that stock market comment was the only real flaw of JC's post. obviously there's a lot more money to be made in stocks so if you could choose why would you be in poker?

Ask Johnny Bax

[SilentSnow 1]

But when it's said and done, one's chances at succeeding at poker are usually about proportionate to your shot at making it in the real world.

I suppose I could write a long response about your chances of actually making a living playing poker but Im sure it's all been said.I just had to strongly disagree with this statement though. I would guess that it is on average WAY tougher to make a moderate living playing poker than it would be at a comparable paying career. The only likely exceptions to this is if you truly have no career options through poor planning or bad luck, or if you are a one in a million type player who can compete for the big payouts. The problem is, for every Daniel Negreanu, there are a thousand marginally winning players who think they will become him. Otherwise, the only reason to play poker exclusively is if you really like it and dont mind being 5-10 years behind when you start your actual career.It would be insanity to drop out of school and eliminate your backup plan with the way poker has been trending lately.

[alanstats 0]

Look at it this way. A comfortable amount of money for a mid 20 year old is say 35k. Your average poker player online is a loser, but the total amount they are losing is probably only 100-500 dollars a year, as an average. It takes a whole boatload of those players for poker to be a sustainable source of income, and the well of players will not always be as juicy as it is now. There will always be people who can make money at poker, but people would be shocked at how small a percentage of players that is. Interestingly, the few people that do profit from this sick game have obvious intelligence and could probably make a ton of money in another profession.

[PrtyPSux 0]

doublepost.

[PrtyPSux 0]

i think that stock market comment was the only real flaw of JC's post. obviously there's a lot more money to be made in stocks so if you could choose why would you be in poker?

uhhhh..... u being serious there buddy? If there's more money in being a Plastic surgeon in beverlyhills, why would anyone go to school to be a vet? Could it be that they like animals more than money? NO WAY!

lots are kids that simply don't have the traits that make a winning player. even though some of the kids can beat the game they can't control their expenses...spend high when they lose, spend higher when they win.

wrong again....if you can beat the games you are a winning player regardless of your spending habits, you might have more variance in life but you'll still be a winning player. Like Greenstein wrote "I've never heard someone say 'this great player will bluff off all his chips, but he's a careful shopper' " If you're a good player money seems to come easy, so you don't mind spending it, people that do mind actually might not have the traits to be one of the greats.As far as the stock market not being easy, anyone that starts off thinking like this about ANYTHING has absolutely no shot at it. If I put my mind to it I can be just as good at that as I am in poker. If I want to write an award winning screenplay, I probably can do that too....most of the people that don't succeed at something are those who don't try, have negative thoughts all the time, and/or don't really want it.

[navybuttons 15]

A comfortable amount of money for a mid 20 year old is say 35k.

if you mean salary you are slightly mistaking. i'm 23, make about 45k a year, live in a studio w/ my girlfriend, have a small car payment, and don't have a dollar left over at the end of the month.realistically, the only way for me to end in the positive this year is through poker. it's just a sad truth. there is no detriment you develop from playing poker that is inherent or specific to poker.

[fleung22 1]

uhhhh..... u being serious there buddy? If there's more money in being a Plastic surgeon in beverlyhills, why would anyone go to school to be a vet? Could it be that they like animals more than money? NO WAY!

i don't want this to become a pissing contest because i respect you both as a player and a member of the fcp community.you make a valid point but i didn't take the time to explain myself.you decided to play poker for a living because you have a passion for the game. that passion is important for success in most any job that will allow you to live in relative ease. i'm not saying you couldn't possibly be a great trader or whatever but the statement itself is dangerous for many. "if poker doesn't work out i'll become a <fill blank>problem is that most of these players can't do that by the time they're broke. school, books, living expenses, time studying, etc. are all things that will become major obstacles. the change from easy money to working for what seems like pennies is like a pro sports athlete returning to the real world (minus the hall of famers). i watched an interview of an athlete (think it was claude lemieux) who was making millions a year and then had to go to a $50,000/year job and was broke, depressed and considered suicide several times.for many people trying to make it in their respective fields it's hard enough to keep up with the field. for those in the world of poker they give up a big opportunity cost and the switch is difficult to say the least. if you were good enough and have the conviction to make it in poker then you'd be there. if you're not you may think you're just running bad but in reality you're a lifetime loser in poker. you might decide to do something else but keep playing poker in hopes of returning to the dream. the switch is hard...damn hard. i've watched several people try and only one guy made it out...not by permanently changing his mentality and going 100% into a new career...he returned to poker and realized that that was meant to be.there are many examples and above is just one.

[No_Neck 0]

Temper, temper. I didn't say such a thing. I'm a big fan of JC's. He's just making it sound too simple. I've played poker and I've played the stock market. There's more to the stock market than there is to poker. That's all. Like fleung said, he may or may not be successful in stocks, only time will tell.

no temper just discussion, I play poker part time and I find it annoying how many people think it is a walk in the park. and my crappy job is a concierge for american express VIP's aka obnoxious *** clown central

[fleung22 1]

no temper just discussion, I play poker part time and I find it annoying how many people think it is a walk in the park.

agreed...people like buddy who is making $100/hour x 40 hrs/week x 52 week in a year = $208,000 por year and claiming it's EASY piss me off.too many people see it as easy money so when i win everyone expects a free ride like i just won a lottery. i'm like, "i worked for this shitt...what do y'all give ME when i lose?!"

[Dratj 0]

no temper just discussion, I play poker part time and I find it annoying how many people think it is a walk in the park. and my crappy job is a concierge for american express VIP's aka obnoxious *** clown central

Poker is hard, I don't find it a walk in the park. I'm a good player but I can't make the money I do at my job. If it were easy, everyone would be sitting at home making hundreds to thousands of dollars a day just playing cards instead of going to a more traditional job. Now that you mention it, I do remember you complaining about that job before. Maybe you should consider going pro.

[Dratj 0]

uhhhh..... u being serious there buddy? If there's more money in being a Plastic surgeon in beverlyhills, why would anyone go to school to be a vet? Could it be that they like animals more than money? NO WAY!wrong again....if you can beat the games you are a winning player regardless of your spending habits, you might have more variance in life but you'll still be a winning player. Like Greenstein wrote "I've never heard someone say 'this great player will bluff off all his chips, but he's a careful shopper' " If you're a good player money seems to come easy, so you don't mind spending it, people that do mind actually might not have the traits to be one of the greats.As far as the stock market not being easy, anyone that starts off thinking like this about ANYTHING has absolutely no shot at it. If I put my mind to it I can be just as good at that as I am in poker. If I want to write an award winning screenplay, I probably can do that too....most of the people that don't succeed at something are those who don't try, have negative thoughts all the time, and/or don't really want it.

I'm saying it's not easy because I've tried it. I definitely have had success with it but it's not easy. I've read books like you say you will and I believe that you are brimming with confidence because of your youth. I'm sure you can do something if you put your mind to it but a lot of your confidence has to do with you being only 21.

[troyomac 0]

Interestingly, the few people that do profit from this sick game have obvious intelligence and could probably make a ton of money in another profession.

I disagree with this statement, I'm sure that most are smart enough to have amazing careers, but for me personally, poker is the one thing that I'm good at. I'm really not that smart of a guy in general life things.

[irishguy 14]

I'm actually a full time trader so I do have a take on some of this discussion. I think JC's point As far as the stock market not being easy, anyone that starts off thinking like this about ANYTHING has absolutely no shot at it. is completely true. I don't know if thinking it will be easy is the right way to word it but certainly when you start anything new you need to believe that you will be a success. Reality in trading hits you in the face like a Lee Jones river and if you are going to be good at it you must believe that you can beat the markets just like poker the measure of you as a trader or in any successful business is often determined by how you handle the downswings and have the character and drive to get better.

[gatortom64 1]

This isa great thread. It has made me stop and think about the way I play my game live vs on line. For some reason I am WAY more successful live vs on line. I am not gonna jump on the wah wah bad beat train. I tend to pay more attention in a live game and have a lot less distractions. No phones, no kids, no doorbells, no customers, etc... I am not a serious player. I do it for fun and relaxation. I use poker as Mental Floss to get over my job as a computer Tech. I have no desire to play poker for a living. To me it is a pleasure. If it was a job, then I could learn to hate it real fast. Poker is my fun time. Don't try to fuck it up for me!!!!

[stealfromblind 0]

i constantly hear about how "online players are getting so much better", what a joke. in a lot of instances i'd rather abuse a good player than a bad player because its EASIER. bad players are unpredictable and therefore high variance opponents, when you play "good" players they consistently give you their stack it just takes longer.

[Jam-Fly 8]

This is a very interesting thread...

[checkymcfold 0]

first, jc's first post is really, really good, and pretty insightful with regard to the mindset of the twenty-something newly rich kids. imho, of course.second, i think in this thread we're already starting to see intimations of some of the negative aspects of being a poker player. the confidence required to excel at this game has the danger (i hesitate to say tendency, but danger works for sure) of turning an otherwise assertive, headstrong kid into a raging fuck. insult a poker player's game and see what happens. OMG BANKROLLZ HU MATCH! that **** is stupid. seriously. you can be a great poker player without having to defend it all the time, and certainly without being a dick. make your money, go about your business, make friends, and be happy. and if you get the chance to make a lot of extra cash, do something good with it rather than say things like any halfwitted 20 yr old can make more than a 45 year old working 40 hrs a week.third, that thing jc mentioned about making money vs doing what you love is really spot on. that's a decision everyone has to make at some point in his or her life--possibly two or three times over. in this respect, of course a lot of 20 year olds are digging this poker thing. you get to work whenever you want, go out and party, and spend the newfound excess cash however you want without having to support a family. and that's great for us, really it is. but to be honest, i have no way of being sure that this lifestyle is going to work for me when i have a family, and i'm doing my best to keep all my "real world" doors open while i live the pretty sweet life that i do. it worries me, just as it seems to worry the OP, that so many kids think that partying 24/7 is some sort of sustainable thing. i'm not judging anyone who really digs it, but i wouldn't be honest without saying that it does worry me--though how, precisely, i can't quite figure out.finally, i think that poker requires a skillset just like any other job. some people are great carpenters, some great business minds, some great stockbrokers, and some great poker players. there is very little reason to think that someone who succeeds at one form of employment could do so just as well at another. i happen to be good at poker, math, and philosophy. good for me. but throw me in front of a canvas and i will make a really ****ing bad painting every time, no matter how much you try to teach me (and they have--10 years of art class, and i still haven't evolved past the stick figure, lol). same thing with a welding torch, etc. the point is that saying stuff like "a 20 year old four tabling can make more money than most 45 year olds" really comes off as arrogant and condescending toward people who are just good at different stuff than you. whether they make more money doing it doesn't matter, and in no way reflects upon whether they're smart, stupid, or more or less valuable to society than you. hell, if the latter was the true measure of human existence anyway, i'm pretty sure poker players would lie at the bottom of the heap.that was a bit ramble-y, i realize, but somehow i got kinda pissed off by this thread and it made me start typing somewhat incoherently. sometimes that happens to me. deal.

[Dratj 0]

first, jc's first post is really, really good, and pretty insightful with regard to the mindset of the twenty-something newly rich kids. imho, of course.second, i think in this thread we're already starting to see intimations of some of the negative aspects of being a poker player. the confidence required to excel at this game has the danger (i hesitate to say tendency, but danger works for sure) of turning an otherwise assertive, headstrong kid into a raging fuck. insult a poker player's game and see what happens. OMG BANKROLLZ HU MATCH! that **** is stupid. seriously. you can be a great poker player without having to defend it all the time, and certainly without being a dick. make your money, go about your business, make friends, and be happy. and if you get the chance to make a lot of extra cash, do something good with it rather than say things like any halfwitted 20 yr old can make more than a 45 year old working 40 hrs a week.third, that thing jc mentioned about making money vs doing what you love is really spot on. that's a decision everyone has to make at some point in his or her life--possibly two or three times over. in this respect, of course a lot of 20 year olds are digging this poker thing. you get to work whenever you want, go out and party, and spend the newfound excess cash however you want without having to support a family. and that's great for us, really it is. but to be honest, i have no way of being sure that this lifestyle is going to work for me when i have a family, and i'm doing my best to keep all my "real world" doors open while i live the pretty sweet life that i do. it worries me, just as it seems to worry the OP, that so many kids think that partying 24/7 is some sort of sustainable thing. i'm not judging anyone who really digs it, but i wouldn't be honest without saying that it does worry me--though how, precisely, i can't quite figure out.finally, i think that poker requires a skillset just like any other job. some people are great carpenters, some great business minds, some great stockbrokers, and some great poker players. there is very little reason to think that someone who succeeds at one form of employment could do so just as well at another. i happen to be good at poker, math, and philosophy. good for me. but throw me in front of a canvas and i will make a really ****ing bad painting every time, no matter how much you try to teach me (and they have--10 years of art class, and i still haven't evolved past the stick figure, lol). same thing with a welding torch, etc. the point is that saying stuff like "a 20 year old four tabling can make more money than most 45 year olds" really comes off as arrogant and condescending toward people who are just good at different stuff than you. whether they make more money doing it doesn't matter, and in no way reflects upon whether they're smart, stupid, or more or less valuable to society than you. hell, if the latter was the true measure of human existence anyway, i'm pretty sure poker players would lie at the bottom of the heap.that was a bit ramble-y, i realize, but somehow i got kinda pissed off by this thread and it made me start typing somewhat incoherently. sometimes that happens to me. deal.

Well written.

[chgocubs99 0]

I've been waiting for this thread my whole life. I have a couple of questions with more possibly to come later...1) It seems like the health insurance/401K issue has yet to be addressed. I would like to hear how some people are dealing with this.2) I haven't heard a great response to the questions being raised about what will be done when a "real job" may be needed after the boom dies down/online poker is banned. What will your resume look like? Are you simply not worried about it because of the luxuries afforded by your current lifestyle?

[PrtyPSux 0]

I'm saying it's not easy because I've tried it. I definitely have had success with it but it's not easy. I've read books like you say you will and I believe that you are brimming with confidence because of your youth. I'm sure you can do something if you put your mind to it but a lot of your confidence has to do with you being only 21.

I don't think I'm a standard 21 yr old, I think I'm mature for my age... that's beside the point though, I say I'll succeed at whatever I put my mind to because I always have ...I could give three major examples in my life but I'd rather not write too much. My mom was a daily trader pre 911, and I realized it is a lot like poker, I don't have any plans to go into another career, but I was just saying that if I ABSOLUTELY have to that is probably what I would do. I don't think I'd fail at it.

[Dratj 0]

I don't think I'm a standard 21 yr old, I think I'm mature for my age... that's beside the point though, I say I'll succeed at whatever I put my mind to because I always have ...I could give three major examples in my life but I'd rather not write too much. My mom was a daily trader pre 911, and I realized it is a lot like poker, I don't have any plans to go into another career, but I was just saying that if I ABSOLUTELY have to that is probably what I would do. I don't think I'd fail at it.

Why did she stop trading?Also, like I said I'm sure you could do it if you wanted to. I hope you don't have to because when you make it to the big time, I can say that I got to talk to you before you got famous.