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Caesar's Palace- Player Went All In And Ran Away With $ After I Called


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I just left a $2-$5 no limit cash game at Caesar's in Las Vegas. What just happened to me sounds like something out of a movie. A player who had over $2,000 in front of him went all in and I called with $1,255 in front of me. Then the player declared that he hadn't gone all in, took his money, and left. Now to the details.This player had said earlier that his name is J.R. My name is Matt. We were in the poker room at Caesar's Palace in Las Vegas, at table 9 in the middle of the room. I was in the 2 seat, and J.R. was in the 6 seat. FYI Caesar's has all of their cash games going 9 handed now.J.R. had been playing erratically, and had gone all in for over $1,000 several times on the flop with $100 or less in the pot. One time about 25 minutes before this final hand happened, he went all in for $1,015 when there was about $100 in the pot. The flop was ten high with two hearts. Finally the player in seat 3 called him, with a bigger stack. J.R. had T7 for a pair of tens with 7 kicker, which held up. The other times he went all in like this, no one called him.So the hand. I get JJ in the BB, seat 2. J.R. raises it to $20 in seat 6. The button on seat 9 calls, I call, as does a limper in seat 4 or 5. The flop comes Jxx, I think J42 or J45. I check, hoping that J.R. will do the all in move once again. Everyone checks around. The turn brings another small card. I wish I had the exact cards, but I don't remember for sure. I bet 40, the next player folds, and J.R. asks me how many bills I have. $100 bills play on the table in this game, and I had 4 of them behind my stack of chips. I had $655 in red & smaller chips, two black chips, and the four $100 bills. I answered him that I had 4 bills. He then said 'I'll put him all in.' I was so glad to hear this that I acted out of turn, something I normally never do. But I had forgotten the 9 seat was still in the hand, I couldn't see his cards. I said 'I call'. Then the dealer said the action was over here (at the 9 seat), at which point J.R. mucked his hand. The 9 seat then folded as well, and I said 'he said he was all in' and the dealer and several players agreed. J.R. started going on about how he hadn't said that, but the dealer and players at the table backed me up.J.R. then started gathering his money and putting it in his pockets. The floor came over and asked what happened, and J.R. tried to make his case. The table held true, and he became agitated. The floor man put in a call to security. Then J.R. finished putting his money away, and turned to leave. I went around to pursue him, and then the floor man said 'don't, we'll take care of it' and I asked him 'you are going to take care of this?' and he said yes. He had already made a ruling that the all in was valid and that I was owed the money, before J.R. tried to leave.So the floor man and a couple other poker room employees pursued him. I put my faith in them as they asked, and stayed at the table. About 10 minutes later, they returned with J.R., escorted by 4-5 security guards. The debate ensued again over whether he had been all in. J.R. asked the table if they had heard him go all in, he said 'anyone who heard me go all in raise your hand' and 4-5 people at the table raised their hands. It was also clarified that he had more money on the table than I did, and that I had $1,255 when he went all in. He refused to pay.J.R. leaves again, with security letting him walk, but surrounding him. I ask what is going on, and they tell me they will take care of it. A few minutes later, I am told that J.R. has been taken to a holding area.The casino manager shows up and tells me they would do what they could. He said that they could not force him to take money out of his pocket to pay me. I asked if Caesar's would stand good for the wager and collect from him, and he said they would not. He said that Caesar's only deals cards and rents space to players, and that they are not responsible for making sure that bets are paid. He said the only way I would get paid is if the other player voluntarily gives up the money.Caesar's then asks everyone at the table to make a written statement. I and several of the players agreed, and wrote out statements saying what they saw happen, and provided contact information.Then a gaming control agent arrives. He is a state of Nevada police officer, in the gaming control board enforcement division. He reviews the written statements of the players, including mine. Then he calls me over, and tells me that he has enough evidence and he wants to charge J.R. with felony robbery. I asked about getting my money, and he said that even if J.R. gets scared and gives it up tonight, that they would keep it as evidence, and I would get it back waaaaaay later at the end of the court case, months later. He said he wants to charge J.R. regardless of what he agrees to at this point, so that players do not try to do this in the future. If J.R. were allowed to leave just by offering to pay up, then he would have had nothing to lose by trying to walk away. I see this police officer's point, and I agree with it. The downside of that is that I am out $1,255. Who knows if I'll ever get it back through restitution. The only way I'll see the money now is from a check cut by the court, after J.R. pays restitution. And of course, that's only if he's found guilty in court, or does a plea bargain.I asked the manager again about getting my money. I told him, how can you just let a player walk away with his money when he loses? I guarantee if that bet had been at a blackjack table, the casino would have made sure that money was collected. He said they weren't responsible for making sure I was paid, and that they wouldn't pay me, and the only way I was getting paid was to get the money from the other player.How can a poker room be like this? I would never even consider not paying a bet. So if an opponent doesn't share those values, he can just decide not to pay? He's being charged with robbery, but what if he gets off through some technicality? Caesar's is just going to let the guy go all in, declare that the bet is valid, my call is valid, then let the guy take his money off the table and leave? I think they should stand good for the bet, and collect it from him. Several players in the room expressed their dismay, one guy even said he would never come back. Who knows about that, but is it worth $1,255 for their reputation to be tarnished? I don't know how other rooms would deal with this, but I think especially since this is not a lot of money to a casino, that they would pay me the money, the amount they themselves verified was the wager, and collect it from the offender.Does anyone have any advice as to what I can do?Do I have any options?Would any poker room act like this? If not, where is a better place to go?Sorry this was so long, and thanks for reading. I'm sure I left some things out and was a little convoluted. If anyone has questions or advice, please let me know!This is Nevada Gaming Control Board case # 2006-8854-LV.Thanks,Matt

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Now that's a bad beat. You got hosed, plain and simple. You did the right thing, a confrontation could/would land you in jail right beside him.I hate to say this, because I know you're upset, but, I think the casino did what they can be expected to. It wasn't their money, as in the case of a blackjack runner, they do only rent space and deal cards. It might have been a nice gesture on their part, but, I don't think it was required of them to pay you.The money was prolly seized as evidence, so restitution may not come into play, it may be available after all is said and done to return it to you.Caesars could at least have comped you to a nice steak dinner...and a hooker.

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I read it all. Seems shitty what happened to you, but you're not actually out the $1255. You're owed $1255 yes, but it wasn't money you had in the first place so you're not out the money. I think Caesar's probably ought to make good, but I can see why it would set a bad precedent for them to pay other people's wagers. They should definitely ban that guy from their poker room and their casino for life and maybe even from every other casino owned by that company. At this point, I guess you just have to hope that the gaming control board and the courts can get your money back for you.

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He will get banned...nation wide. I guarantee they took his picture in the back room, and they will put him in the Griffin Report that all casinos use to monitor cheaters and undesirables...he won't even be able to play in an Indian Casino...all the casino's use the Griffin Report.

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At least you got the best of him; I mean he's going to be charged with a felony, will have to get a lawyer and got court ,etc etc. He's probably very sorry he pulled that crap against you and I wouldn't be suprised if he just gives up and admits it or pleas out.

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Wow that's just terrible. Frankly I'm surprised they let him get away with it. Since the dealer decided that the all-in and call were valid, when the security officers caught him the first time they should have just coerced him into paying. In other words, 'Pay up now or you go to jail AND lose the money.' I think you did the right thing by letting them handle it, and I also think you did the right thing by publicizing what happened to you, because I don't think they handled it well. You should post this on other poker forums. Oh, and if the guy does end up in court, show up with some very intimidating-looking friends and tell him afterwards to pay you your money or else.

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I understand that Caesar's is not putting up the bets, but that doesn't change the fact that if I had lost the hand, I'd have paid. So basically, I was putting money at risk, with no possibility for profit. I think there should be more accountability than that! Maybe that's expecting too much, but it only seems fair.I think if he is convicted, I'll get the money - they'll make him pay restitution. If he doesn't, he'll get more jail time, etc. I'd expect that it would end up as a plea bargain, which is fine, or he'll get off because the prosecutor will decide there isn't enough evidence. Who knows if a jury could be convinced.

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I understand that Caesar's is not putting up the bets, but that doesn't change the fact that if I had lost the hand, I'd have paid. So basically, I was putting money at risk, with no possibility for profit. I think there should be more accountability than that! Maybe that's expecting too much, but it only seems fair.I think if he is convicted, I'll get the money - they'll make him pay restitution. If he doesn't, he'll get more jail time, etc. I'd expect that it would end up as a plea bargain, which is fine, or he'll get off because the prosecutor will decide there isn't enough evidence. Who knows if a jury could be convinced.
I agree, it seems ridiculous. What if the amount had been $50,000? The guy could just decide that he didn't want to pay it and that lawyer fees/possible jail time would be preferable to paying out $50k.
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Yeah, that is why I told the gaming officer that if the guy agreed to pay, I was cool with him not getting prosecuted. But he was real gung ho on pushing the charges. It makes sense, but I just want my money. I'm sure the guy regrets it, he's probably pissed off himself. I didn't do anything wrong, but I'm sure he's pissed. He'd probably pay up and count himself lucky to walk away at this point.The real way this should have been handled is just to get him to pay, period. The threat of "jail and pay" or "pay and leave" would work I'm sure. If they decide they must press charges, then they fail, I'm screwed.

I read it all. Seems shitty what happened to you, but you're not actually out the $1255. You're owed $1255 yes, but it wasn't money you had in the first place so you're not out the money. I think Caesar's probably ought to make good, but I can see why it would set a bad precedent for them to pay other people's wagers. They should definitely ban that guy from their poker room and their casino for life and maybe even from every other casino owned by that company. At this point, I guess you just have to hope that the gaming control board and the courts can get your money back for you.
Actually I disagree, the guy owes me $1,255 however you look at it. In addition, I had my own $1,255 at risk, which only because I won the hand, I got to keep. So he was freerolling for a chance at my money. If he gets off the charges, that's what it amounts to. This whole thing is this guy's fault, but I think Caesar's should be taking more responsibility. We're not talking a lot of money here, and the "we'll get scammed if we pay out these kind of things" is weak. It holds a grain of truth, but we all know a casino will go to great lengths to prosecute anyone who takes their money - and that's what this guy would be doing, if Caesar's took responsibility for the bet made on their table.
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I read it all. Seems shitty what happened to you, but you're not actually out the $1255. You're owed $1255 yes, but it wasn't money you had in the first place so you're not out the money. I think Caesar's probably ought to make good, but I can see why it would set a bad precedent for them to pay other people's wagers. They should definitely ban that guy from their poker room and their casino for life and maybe even from every other casino owned by that company. At this point, I guess you just have to hope that the gaming control board and the courts can get your money back for you.
Yes, he is out the $1255 and the money is his. If you get robbed of your paycheck just as its being hande to you, would you say it wasnt money you had in the first place so you arent as such out of the money? Fuking amateurs.
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Yes, he is out the $1255 and the money is his. If you get robbed of your paycheck just as its being hande to you, would you say it wasnt money you had in the first place so you arent as such out of the money?
Agreed. He got his opponent to set him in, he called, and villain mucks his cards. Villain's hand is dead before they even deal the river. The pot was already his to begin with before this dbag pocketed the chips.
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Wow, tha'ts a pretty brutal story bro. I really hope you get your money, I wish I could do somethign to help you out. I'll tell you what, if you want some "backup" just lemme know....

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Wow, tha'ts a pretty brutal story bro. I really hope you get your money, I wish I could do somethign to help you out. I'll tell you what, if you want some "backup" just lemme know....
i'm not a big guy, but i could bite his ankles off.let me know.
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Dude, that's a really crappy deal.First of all, you did the right thing. Interfering with security or the gaming board would NOT have helped your situation in any way. I also understand Caesars stance. Not to sound cold-hearted, but no matter where the $1200+ goes, it's not going to them, so what do they care? It's a little different than a blackjack loser trying to bolt with their bet.That being said, I would find it despicable if they ever let this guy play again there or at any of their other properties.Even if it takes awhile, I hope you get the money eventually. I don't know the law, but maybe there is a type of lawsuit you can bring upon him to extract more money in the future.Good luck, you should at least have some good karma stored up after this fiasco.

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Yes, he is out the $1255 and the money is his. If you get robbed of your paycheck just as its being hande to you, would you say it wasnt money you had in the first place so you arent as such out of the money? Fuking amateurs.
I agree with the analogy.Who's the f'ing amatuer though?I hope you're not saying Cinci?*************8oh, and welcome OP
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Ok. Let me clear this up once and for all.Did you see a river? Did you see his cards? Did he have outs against you?Either you play the hand out and then figure out who would have won, and if it was you, then he owes you the full amount. If not, get his hand, and he owes you your equity in the pot, which of course could be 100%.This is all theory. I do suppose his hand is mucked when he leaves the table though, so you win it all.Clear?

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Yes, his hand was dead on the turn. He mucked it way out in front of him, on the other side of the flop, and the dealer put it in the muck.This may not be a clear cut issue as far as Caesar's is concerned. But what about for a regular poker player? Do I always have to depend on people to pay up? It doesn't make any sense.

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Yes, his hand was dead on the turn. He mucked it way out in front of him, on the other side of the flop, and the dealer put it in the muck.This may not be a clear cut issue as far as Caesar's is concerned. But what about for a regular poker player? Do I always have to depend on people to pay up? It doesn't make any sense.
It's stupid. That dude deserves to be curbstombed until his skull is crushed.Anyways, I'd feel strongly that he owed me the money, and I'd do everything to get it back.Apparently Caesars is gay also, I can't believe they don't pay it for you, like $1200 is like 1/100000000000000000000000000000th of their profits...
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Yes, he is out the $1255 and the money is his. If you get robbed of your paycheck just as its being hande to you, would you say it wasnt money you had in the first place so you arent as such out of the money? Fuking amateurs.
This analogy makes sense. Pay no attention to me, I can't even come up with a coherent way to explain the point I was trying to make, it made sense in my head, but obviously I'm retarded. I give up.Also, this just kind of popped into my head, but I think there's a way this sort of thing could be avoided, at least to an extent. If cash is not allowed to play, then it becomes pretty simple. Duder can only bet what he has on the table in casino chips and the casino isn't going to cash out those chips to him if he owes them to someone else. So, problem solved, require people to only play with chips.
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I realise this isn't what you want to hear, but you point out the one thing that would have avoided the situation:Don't call out of turn.Once his money is past the betting line, it's no longer a matter of "he said, she said" - it's a matter of the surveilance camera's proving that he pushed the money past the betting line.Other than that, the best advice I can read from the previous posts is not to play in casino's that allow you to use cash. As mentioned, if everything is in chips and he owes someone money, the casino would refuse to let him cash out.That being said, I personally believe that since the casino allows cash in games, they should be responsible for cash bets made by other players. Cash is easily scammed with (as we see here), and they could prevent situations like these with little to no cost to their operation.Of course, with a situation like the one you've described, and with enough attention brought to it, they could easily lose more than $1,255 worth of customers.

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