i believe this is also daniel's pet peeve!

[who62500 0]

If one more person bluffs me out of a dry side pot that would have resulted in a player getting knocked out, I may seriously hurt them (which may be hard to do through the internet I guess).Sorry for wasting your time, just no one for me to complain to.

[jrme33 0]

i completely agree with you man. it happens in at least every couple sit-n-go's i play. everytime i fold and it gets showndown i try to explain to them why they shouldn't do it. i try to never be a "coach" at the table, but i feel this is one situation where saying something is justified. unfortunately the bluffer never really gets it. this almost as annoying as the infamous"double blind preflop raise" in nl hold'em games.

[finztotheleft 0]

Drives me nuts too

[TheRake_MD23 0]

Drives me nuts too

[bm99 0]

i completely agree with you man. it happens in at least every couple sit-n-go's i play. everytime i fold and it gets showndown i try to explain to them why they shouldn't do it. i try to never be a "coach" at the table, but i feel this is one situation where saying something is justified. unfortunately the bluffer never really gets it. this almost as annoying as the infamous"double blind preflop raise" in nl hold'em games.

No the worst is the double-the-blind PF raise from the guy in the big blind after 5 people have limped in.

[chaosnhavoc 0]

Try this one...A player under the gun raises to $1,500, Phil Ivey reraises to $6,000 from early position, and the player on the button moves all in for about $8,000 more. The under-the-gun player folds, and Ivey calls with Ac-Ks. The button shows a pair of jacks (Jh-Js), and they're off to the races. But wait, another player announces that he also folded A-K. Ivey's race situation just became an underdog situation. Ivey has the other player covered, but not by much. The flop comes Qs-6d-3c, and Ivey will need to catch one of the remaining aces or kings (four outs) to stay alive. The turn card is the 2s, and the river card is -- the ace of diamonds. Ivey hits a four-outer to stay alive and nearly double up, eliminating the other player. Ivey now has about $28,000 in chips.

[Petoria 0]

Try this one...A player under the gun raises to $1,500, Phil Ivey reraises to $6,000 from early position, and the player on the button moves all in for about $8,000 more. The under-the-gun player folds, and Ivey calls with Ac-Ks. The button shows a pair of jacks (Jh-Js), and they're off to the races. But wait, another player announces that he also folded A-K. Ivey's race situation just became an underdog situation. Ivey has the other player covered, but not by much. The flop comes Qs-6d-3c, and Ivey will need to catch one of the remaining aces or kings (four outs) to stay alive. The turn card is the 2s, and the river card is -- the ace of diamonds. Ivey hits a four-outer to stay alive and nearly double up, eliminating the other player. Ivey now has about $28,000 in chips.

Dude wtf, wrong thread?Yeah, nobody likes the dry side pot bluff. I love calling the dry side pot bluff, when I flop the nuts though.

[chaosnhavoc 0]

Try this one...A player under the gun raises to $1,500, Phil Ivey reraises to $6,000 from early position, and the player on the button moves all in for about $8,000 more. The under-the-gun player folds, and Ivey calls with Ac-Ks. The button shows a pair of jacks (Jh-Js), and they're off to the races. But wait, another player announces that he also folded A-K. Ivey's race situation just became an underdog situation. Ivey has the other player covered, but not by much. The flop comes Qs-6d-3c, and Ivey will need to catch one of the remaining aces or kings (four outs) to stay alive. The turn card is the 2s, and the river card is -- the ace of diamonds. Ivey hits a four-outer to stay alive and nearly double up, eliminating the other player. Ivey now has about $28,000 in chips.

Dude wtf, wrong thread?Yeah, nobody likes the dry side pot bluff. I love calling the dry side pot bluff, when I flop the nuts though.

Shit wrong thread.. Lock it up

[Petoria 0]

Try this one...A player under the gun raises to $1,500, Phil Ivey reraises to $6,000 from early position, and the player on the button moves all in for about $8,000 more. The under-the-gun player folds, and Ivey calls with Ac-Ks. The button shows a pair of jacks (Jh-Js), and they're off to the races. But wait, another player announces that he also folded A-K. Ivey's race situation just became an underdog situation. Ivey has the other player covered, but not by much. The flop comes Qs-6d-3c, and Ivey will need to catch one of the remaining aces or kings (four outs) to stay alive. The turn card is the 2s, and the river card is -- the ace of diamonds. Ivey hits a four-outer to stay alive and nearly double up, eliminating the other player. Ivey now has about $28,000 in chips.

Dude wtf, wrong thread?Yeah, nobody likes the dry side pot bluff. I love calling the dry side pot bluff, when I flop the nuts though.

censored wrong thread.. Lock it up

I'm sorry, I can only lock threads, not individual posts. :-)

[Mesisca 0]

Yea, it bothered me so much at a live tournament that I decided to write and article about it, giving it the name The Empty Pot Rule. you can read about that at http://www.stratfordshark.blogspot.comflame all you want on how crappy my blog is, but I thought the Empty Pot Rule was a good article to get my group of friends to read, so now maybe they understand.

[Scruff 0]

"this almost as annoying as the infamous"double blind preflop raise" in nl hold'em games."

Erick Lindgren actually advocates this from early position, early in deep stack tourneys in his new book.

[SpeedKills 0]

that really pisses me off

[borinka99 0]

"this almost as annoying as the infamous"double blind preflop raise" in nl hold'em games."

Erick Lindgren actually advocates this from early position, early in deep stack tourneys in his new book.

Why??? What reason does he give? For people to think you have AA?

[anselm 0]

In Matt Matros' book he briefly discusses why Chris Ferguson advocates min. raises and small bets too. It's in his chapter on Game Theory I believe, but there wasn't too much explanation there and left me wanting more. Perhaps Jesus and Lindgren are along the same lines here.

[Scruff 0]

I preface this with a big, fat, read it for yourself so I don't butcher the concept with my interpretation . . . He says he likes 2 to 2 1/2 x raises in that spot (early pos., early tourney, deep stacks).But basically he says it keeps people off balance since he likes to play a lot of pots, especially with bad players. He likes that people don't know if he has AA, KK or 76s when he does this. If he does have 76s, he can represent the A or K when it flops. If he hits the flop with 76s, they don't have a clue.Either way it doesn't cost him as much when he misses. He doesn't care about raising people off, he wants them to call, so he can outplay them after the flop and get a lot more than just a couple of bets.Funny you mentioned Matros Anselm, as he is the co-writer of Lindgren's book. Basically I get the impression that it's Lindgren's book, but Matros helped him with writing and organizing it. The book is actually By Erick Lindgren, with Matt Matros.

[checkymcfold 0]

sometimes in limit, you'll raise with the 2nd best hand to gain a bigger chance at winning the pot by knocking out another marginal hand behind you.sometimes in NL, you'll bet at a dry side pot in order to have a better chance of winning the main pot, even if you're holding a-high.same principle, and neither is a bad play in many spots. i "bluff at dry side pots" quite often in tournaments. do you think it matters if one bloody guy goes out in a 1000-runner tournament? increasing your stack is much, much more important.

[Scruff 0]

Also, I think part of it is not committing a lot of chips when you are out of position in case you are outplayed later in the hand for whatever reason.

[Scruff 0]

checkmcfold, I see your point, but how often do you think A high beats the slightly better than random hand that someone is investing his last chips with.I see your point early in a 1000-person tourney. But in a Sit&Go? Knocking out players is important there. How often have you seen a shortstack come back to win? You get 20% of the pie just for grabbing 3rd yourself. I think you do everything you can to knock someone out in that spot, unless the pot is significant.

[checkymcfold 0]

checkmcfold, I see your point, but how often do you think A high beats the slightly better than random hand that someone is investing his last chips with.I see your point early in a 1000-person tourney. But in a Sit&Go? Knocking out players is important there. How often have you seen a shortstack come back to win? You get 20% of the pie just for grabbing 3rd yourself. I think you do everything you can to knock someone out in that spot, unless the pot is significant, but even then, with A-high your chances of winning can't be much.

in sngs, it's not as often a good play, but still sometimes, it works out to be right. it's not about playing for 3rd in those things; it's about winning. and if you can increase your chances of the latter by risking 1giving a shorstack another round of blinds, by all means, do it.

[Scruff 0]

I dropped the last line of my post after more thought.I completely disagree, in sit & gos I think it's definitely about playing for 3rd first, and then once you get 3rd, figuring out a way to win. It's really not that hard to get 3rd in a sit & go (unless you end up with like 6 or 7 really patient players, which happens occasionally even as low as $20+2), and you are rarely going to be so short stacked that you can't come back if you aren't the leader, considering how big the blinds are by the time there's 3 left.It's not like a MTT where just sneaking into the money gets you .18% or somthing. You get 20% just for 3rd, which is doubling your money.I don't mind going for a big stack early in a S&G, but survival is generally more important, since the blinds are so big by the time it's short-handed that if you lose 2 pots in a row you won't have that big-stack anymore anyway.

[Smasharoo 0]

If one more person bluffs me out of a dry side pot that would have resulted in a player getting knocked out, I may seriously hurt them (which may be hard to do through the internet I guess).There are occasionally reasons to do this.No the worst is the double-the-blind PF raise from the guy in the big blind after 5 people have limped in.This too.A little bit of knowledge and all that, kids.good luck.

[JSHamm 9]

If one more person bluffs me out of a dry side pot that would have resulted in a player getting knocked out, I may seriously hurt them (which may be hard to do through the internet I guess).There are occasionally reasons to do this.

expound? I'm curious as to the reasoning. Thanks.

[Smasharoo 0]

expound? I'm curious as to the reasoning. Thanks.When there's not a near money bubble and I have a short stack, and the other live player has a large stack, getting heads up with the all in guy means I'm more likely to win the pot than checking it down and puts me in better $EV situation. For instance I have AT, flop is 379, two suited, pot is 60% of my stack. I have 8 M . Moving in is better than checking down if the next 11 places pay the same.good luck.

[scottyno 0]

expound? I'm curious as to the reasoning. Thanks.When there's not a near money bubble and I have a short stack, and the other live player has a large stack, getting heads up with the all in guy means I'm more likely to win the pot than checking it down and puts me in better $EV situation.  For instance I have AT, flop is 379, two suited, pot is 60% of my stack. I have 8 M . Moving in is better than checking down if the next 11 places pay the same.good luck.

yeah, if its not near money bubble then it doesnt really matter, because busting 1 more guy is meaningless. Making a total bluff is probablybad in any dry pot situation (ex. 45o on a 7TQ board) but theres nothing wrong with making a semi bluff with 2 overs or some sort of draw. You might even have the best hand with ace high, and if not you still have a bunch of outs to win.

[kdogg 0]

Wouldn't you sometimes want to bluff a dry side pot if you have a super large stack in a bubble situation? If you lose the pot, the bubble will remain intact and you can keep picking up the blinds and antes by being the bully. If you win the pot, you'll add to your stack.