i need help playing against bad players

[Tantalar 0]

I know it may sound wierd, but I just cant beat bad poker players. Maybe im overbetting the pot in certain situations. I dont know, I just can't win. Maybe im playing too loose...I have a home game every friday and sometimes saturday night. We used to play one big rebuy tournament with like 6 people, and it would last forever, and we would have a big reward for first place. I mean with only a $10 buyin and infinite rebuys until like, an hour and a half, the ammount of money would really grow! First off, One of my friends goes to the same community college as me, so we both live in our home town still. The kids we play with are roughly a year and a half younger than us. BOK is pretty much a Jackal, as described by hellmuth. ROY is a calling station. BRIAN is a Jackal and a Calling station. CASEY is a calling station and NEVER raises EVER. LIZZI is a tight/agressive phil ivey type who really knows how to play the game.Lizzi goes to the same college as me, (community college) and we are both at about the same level in skills. We have both read a ton of books, watched tons of poker, played lots of online poker, and lots of live poker. We both went to the casino and had a great time and made slight profit including travel and room expenses. (Although we are only 18 and 19 we went to Turningstone in NY)Also there's ALAN who is a little tighter than lizzi and a LITTLE easier to bluff. They are both really good players. ALAN has gone off to college and only plays when he comes home for something like thanksgiving.So we get together at ROYS house. We draw for seating, and start playing. we start with 2,500 in chips, and the blind structure is 10/20,20/50,50/100 and then doubles from there. And they raise every 45 minutes. I like to play tight agressive. But I cant pass up a suited connecter, and I can't pass up a pocket pair. I'm not like Sam Farha at all, but I enjoy seeing a flop and outplaying my opponent on the flop. The trouble is that I keep trying to outplay dangerous, wreckless, bad players. For example, this is a common problem I have.I raise pre flop with KJ of hearts from middle position since it was folded to me. Lets assume I have an equal ammount in chips as everyone else (2,500) Now since the blinds are 10/20 ill raise 80 more. Lets assume that only ROY goes to the flop with me. The flop is Kc 5c 10d. Now naturally I am not going to slowplay this. If he had AJ then he can hit a gutshot or an ace to win. Not to mention he could have an open ended striaght draw, or he could have a flush draw. I cant slow play this. Seriously, I need to bet to get him to fold. So I bet the pot, since its not that big of a pot. And I dont want him to get the right odds to draw at it. Naturally he calls. I know I have the bets hand right now, on the flop, but I just know im going to get sucked out on the turnThe turn card is a 8 of diamonds. Great, now there are 2 flush draws out there. I decide its time to raise it up. I dont want him to see the next card without paying dearly for it. The pot is now larger, so Im going to bet about 80% of it, certainly enough to scare away someone with just a flush draw. Ok, he calls. Right now Im thinking he might have a similar hand to me. What else could he have, How could someone go this far with a flush draw? he must have a soilid hand I think, he must. Well the river card is a a 2 of clubs. That's scary, I think he has a flush draw. He usually doesnt take a top pair this far, but what else could he have. Did he actually call me down that far with just a flush draw? If i dont bet he's going to think im weak, and maybe bet with a middle pair, or top pair mediocre kicker. I have to bet something. So I bet half the pot. I want him to call with top pair mediocre kicker, or medium pair. I pray and pray that he doesnt have a flush. So I bet half the pot, and he raises me about the same ammount that I raise. Great, he obviously hit a flush. But I have to pay it off, dont I? I mean I bet half the pot, he raised the same ammount that I just bet, so I cant not call here. I have to pay it off. I cant assume "hes got the flushg every time a 3rd suited card comes down" Logic tells me that theres no reason to call that far, and them make a weak raise on the river when you finally DO hit your lucky card.Anyway, I do pay it off, and he shows me 9c 4c. 9c 4c? what a joke. he called a bet 4x the BB with 9c 4c? with only him and myself in the hand? Incredible. that's just terrible on so many levels. Sure, he had position, but with a hand like that, in the hands of a player who rarely bluffs, and NEVER uses a read on an opponent... what the hell... I cant believe it, and the whole table laughs about how I got sucked out and owned. Great, im down a fair ammount of chips, now that ive been sucked out by that idiot. I don't let it get to me though, because I dont go on tilt very often. After all, it wasnt that bad of a suckout. Even though he played it horribly, and got lucky, I dont care. Im going to get rewarded every 4/5 times that that happens, right? Yeah right, not at ROYs house.Now when I play against LIZZI, I can actually check raise him with King high when the flop is not very dangerous. I mean like, Ill miss the flop completely. And it will be something like 10h 5d 2c. And it will be checked around to lizzi. I will just check, because it didnt help my KJ of clubs very much. Now Its checked to lizzi and he bets a ton. He loves to overbet the pot to try to steal it, and only lately have I Picked up on this one, but ive check raised him and stolen the pot from him with junk, because I know that he's raising me with junk. And even if he did have something like middle pair, My check raise would get respect from him, because hes a good player, and he is capable of folding the best hand to a bluff. (I dont mean that he will, because he is hard to bluff, but he can if you play your cards smart) Essentially, you can actually use strategy to beat him. And the same goes for ALAN. They are by no means TIGHT/WEAK at all. Anyway, Every time I play in these games at ROYS house, I get sucked out and lose. I always lose with the best hand going in. Someone who called my raise out of position with junk gets lucky, and its the end of the story. In a situation like this, with the blinds the way that they are, should I be playing tighter and seeing less flops, so I get sucked out less? I was reading in sklansky's book about playing more hands against bad players so you can outplay them. But there is really no way to outplay the fish/donkeys in this game. Now im not saying that I read what every book tells me and just follow it word by word, but I wanted to give his advice a try. It just hasnt been working. I feel like Im trying to play 50/100 NL holdem with people who are playing .01/.02 NL holdem. And I pretty much am. Im at a different level than BOK, ROY, BRIAN, and CASEY. LIZZI and ALAN are too. I need to build up my bankroll though, because I seriously can't play well against bad players. It's just something about losing my entire tournament because some idiot called me down with a gutshot straight draw... Its more enjoyable to play the way I like to play. The way I like to play is like DN, cause I like raising when I have the best hand, or when i KNOW my opponent is weak, and being able to beat them with my pair of 5s because I KNOW all they have is 2 overcards. Anyway, yeah... How do you play people who suck at poker?I recently lost $69 in online poker because Id flop a top pair, and get called down when I went all in by just AK, two overcards. BOOM, King on the turn, I lose $15 that happened about 4 times and it was all gone. Brutal suckouts. That's what its like at ROYS house. How can I beat them? Do you guys think I should play TIGHT?

[allinbluff35 0]

make pottery/make millions

[Tantalar 0]

Bah I knew I wouldnt get any responses if I posted in the correct forum. Ill just post it in general

[KenP 0]

Try reading the implied odds chapter...

[Two_Stepper 0]

I recently lost $69 in online poker because Id flop a top pair, and get called down when I went all in by just AK, two overcards. BOOM, King on the turn, I lose $15 that happened about 4 times and it was all gone. Brutal suckouts. That's what its like at ROYS house. How can I beat them? Do you guys think I should play TIGHT?

If you are loosing your $69 bankroll in 4 bad beats, I think you are playing outside your bankroll. I would suggest playing lower limit NL.Also, find the problematic hands from your hand history and post them in the NL forum. I'm sure you will get great feedback.2Step

[TJ_Eckleburg 0]

I just cant beat bad poker players.

I stopped here."I can't" stops your thinking. It also leads to self-pity and searching for causes outside yourself."How can I" forces you to rely on your own intuition to solve problems and figure stuff out.It really is that simple."How can I beat bad poker players?"Learn more.

[kcb 0]

tl, dr.Maybe you're the bad poker player. Maybe not.

[Longshanks 0]

just dont let them hit runner runner on you

[NoSup4U 0]

Bah I knew I wouldnt get any responses if I posted in the correct forum. Ill just post it in general

Your post is way too long, just my opinion. I did get to the line that said you were tight, but can't pass up suited connectors or pp's. If you're having problems after the flop against looser opponents, try tightening up, making your post flop decisions easier. Which means get rid of the suited connectors for sure...Mark

[HoosierAlum 0]

make pottery/make millions

LMFAO

[Canada 0]

You need help playing with bad playersYou can't beat bad players => you are not a good playerYou are not a good player => you are a bad playerYou are a bad player => you need help playing with yourselfYou need help playing with yourself = You're sick

[jefrock21 0]

Playing rebuys are the easiest way to get sucked out on. You have to play uber-tight until the rebuy period is over and try to stay out of situations that will cause you to have to rebuy. When I play in rebuy tourneys in casinos I keep enough rebuy money to rebuy twice...hopefully once during the first hour and one for the add on during the break. I see lots of people that chase terribly the first hour because they can rebuy and go through 4 or 5 rebuys in the first hour. You take advantage of these players the second hour becuase you have established a solid tight player image, Plus afetr rebuys are over people don't chase as much becuase they can't rebuy.You just need to be more selective of your hands during rebuy time and remember you can't outbluff a calling station. just get as much money from them as you can when you have the best hand.

[Ramocita 0]

IMO... You are playing a home game.. which I think that you are comparing this to the WSOP... its seems to me like a friendly environment and with a $10 buy-in with rebuys, they are going to play with less than mediocre hands. To me you are all playing no foldem holdem, kind of like low stakes limit at the casino..Consider raising the buyin.... 2nd... if the guy in your example was a calling station.. you new when the club hit the river and reraised you that you were beat...You are going to get sucked out on... it happens...

[3A 0]

First I would like to adress your "gut" feeling. Generally speaking the clues point you in the right direction even if you don't see them on the turn you know he has a flush draw AND on the river you think he's hit it. If your wrong you lose a little bit of money, but if your right you save yourself possibly the tournament. That being said if you can't reasonably solve whats in his hand by thinking it out, go with what your gut was told you.Now to adress the home game... oh the glorious bad beats at the home games. To some people this may seem like a bad idea, but this is something I've read DN do as well as many others, to better understand the "donks" you must play like them to see what they must be playing like. The rush of playing in monster pots with 49 suited to hit on the end and get a chance to break someone who just refuses to believe there hand was beaten, wether it be to top pair, 2 pair, a set, a straight... these river rats don't care that they beat good holdings or weak ones, they just got to have fun and get lucky.A problem I run into on occassion is say I hold AK raised 5xBB preflop 3 callers in a full ring and the flop comes AQ7 (rainbow) checked around I bet the pot 2 callers 2 on the turn now all 4 suits show. I bet again maybe half the pot and only 1 caller. Now and a non scare cards comes up say a 9 on the river and I make a value bet on the end 1/4 of the pot (which at this point I've put half my chips in) he has same amount of chips as me and decides to go all in n0w. He is one of the call station donks I love calling me down, rarely do I find a reason to justify folding here... so I call and he shows Q7 suited great... "checks"All that being said I pay him off, I bring enough buy-ins to sustain any possible bad beatings or bad plays on my part. Other ways to prevent this stuff, build your stack when you have cards, quit slow playing a set when you flop it or the nuts, you are going to get callers by calling stations accept it and take advantage of it. If you generally are a check-raise kinda guy, fast play a few hands you must mix it up or even the fish learn how you swim. (I hope this helps)

[oceansize 0]

I used to read and write and proofread....are you describing a hypothetical situation or a real one that you don't want to admit to as you wrote that sequel to Exodus? I say that because you start your story "Let's assume this was the stack size, let's assume Roy does this when I do this..."Very confusing. Next time remember a hand and retell what happened as best as you can.Also, I think most of the other players are correct in saying that you might be the bad player...not picking a fight, but you don't seem to grasp the game you are playing in or at least are not at that level of play. It's really easy to assume the people are beating you because they are lucky bad players....they may not have read as many books as you or logged the hours on the table, but they still got your number and that is all that really matters.So now, here are somethings for you to consider that might help.If you play tight/ aggressive, act like it. If you are at a game where the blinds dont go up for 45 minutes and it's 6 handed to start, passing up suited connectors should not be a problem whereas constantly playing them without a thought to position, action, table flow...that's just problematic. You are going to want to tighten up in a limitless rebuy, long lasting blind, NL HE game, even if it's just amoungst friends.Play strong when you are strong and weak when you are weak. That doesn't even mean play "implied strong" (say, flopping an open ended straight flush draw...a powerful drawing hand, but you don't have a hand yet), it means, if you got middle pair top kicker and a backdoor flush draw, you are not betting over the top of someone like you got the nutz.For our house games, we double blinds every 15 minutes so it's a different game from what you are describing. But I will say that it sounds more like the problem you are having is your own and not the other players. As a NL player your supposed to be able to adapt and roll with the punches, shift gears and change your style during any session. As has been written in many books over and over again (so I'm sure you've heard of this), this is not just a game boiled down to deception and information, math and ratios...ultimately it's a game of good decisions. If you maximized on all your profit hands and minimized all the loss of damaging hands, then you made all the best decisions...if you are constantly beating yourself in the head, you are making bad decisions.Los

[Actuary 3]

Try reading the implied odds chapter...

try making it less than 23,067 words long.

[Actuary 3]

Bah I knew I wouldnt get any responses if I posted in the correct forum. Ill just post it in general

Your post is way too long, just my opinion. I did get to the line that said you were tight, but can't pass up suited connectors or pp's. If you're having problems after the flop against looser opponents, try tightening up, making your post flop decisions easier. Which means get rid of the suited connectors for sure...Mark

this is bad advice.

[Dynon07 0]

First off you guys should be nicer to Tant, he came in asked for advice and got complaints cause it was too long? Give the guy a break he is seeking advice, if you don't wanna read it don't. Anyway Tant.I had the same problem as you this year. I went to my normal college game and never really had a good night. This is very unusual for me and it really made me angry some nights. But then I sat down and put it into "perspective".I lost because we played 2-3 hours a night and the entire table was a bunch of calling stations. You would think this game would be easy to crush , but no it was very difficult. In order to beat people that call infinite all the time with any piece of the flop you HAVE to have good cards. I never got good enough cards, and to someone saying , just outplay these people...Yeah right. These heros couldn't fold to save their entire family from certain death. So I suffered the same fate as you most nights, I waited around till I got a strong hand , played it to the bone, and got outdrawn and was down a buyin, tried the same thing again was same victim , then proceeded to get terrible cards for the duration of our playtime. Everyone else was having a good time , but I was miserable cause I get pretty pissed when I lose. The year before this was awesome, instead of 2-3 hours we played for 7-10 hours a night and I always won, every single time. So this year I really decided the cards I was dealt was a factor.Secondly people take so freaking long in home games its unbearable, you have to remind your friends eighty times its there turn and people act out of turn all the time. So in the maybe 30-40 hands we played an hour I got 2-3 good ones and got outdrawn on one of them. So for me it was a time and card issue.The key is too look at the experience and really conclude whether these people are better then you. If you can look back at every play you made in the night, and realized you were ahead when you got it all in, or you didn't play your hand incorrectly, don't sweat it man. A few nights I got so pissed and would rant to my friend on the phone for hours about how I could never beat the worst player in the world. He finally had an intervention and just told me the straight up facts. The bottom line is you need awesome cards to beat a lot of heros and some very good situations. Keep playing your game you will eventually come out on top, and if you really think you are the best player there, you probably are. Just try to use "perspective", it can really help things sometime.Keep playing your strategy and I would recommend playing the same way online, just don't pay the fish off when they throw some stupid value bet at you on the river, just fold, save yourself the money. When you are an aggressive player and you are constantly leading (like you did) people only raise you when you are beat, cherish this gift and keep controlling the hands, they will miss eventually...I promise.

[Actuary 3]

Are you a dumbass?I gave advice.I told him to keep it shorter; so that more people would give him advice.It's apparent you like to write you life story (I didn't read it)I read lots of strategy threads and try to help.But the super long ones that are not concise get much less feedback from those that try to read several every day.that's all. I was trying to help.I could talk about my Home Tournies too, under the guise of helping.

[Dynon07 0]

Are you a dumbass?I gave advice.I told him to keep it shorter; so that more people would give him advice.It's apparent you like to write you life story (I didn't read it)I read lots of strategy threads and try to help.But the super long ones that are not concise get much less feedback from those that try to read several every day.that's all.  I was trying to help.I could talk about my Home Tournies too, under the guise of helping.

Don't have to be mean man, was just making friendly comment trying to help the guy, I wasn't attacking anyone. I just feel sometimes people bring negativity to threads that doesn't need to be there. Guy asks for help and he gets made fun of like 10 times before he even gets constructive criticism.

[Actuary 3]

you seem like a good fella.you make some good points.peace

[SPADES21 0]

just a side note...you start with 2500 in chips and the starting blinds are 10/20 and raise every 45 minutes. you also say 6 people with unlimited rebuys. This tourney must take days...does it ever end.Seriously how long does your tourney usually take?