are online players getting better?

[kevmac123 0]

do you guys think that online players overall are starting to improve. i know moneymaker brought a huge influx of fish into online poker since he won qualifying online. but after a while most of the fish from around then either go broke or learn and get better. do people think that online play is starting to improve in player quality or staying the same or worse?

[closetwin 0]

Exhibit A: .50/1 tables on nearly any site on the internet.Rest my case.CT

[cgrohman 0]

No, the play is atrocious.

[akishore 0]

Exhibit A: .50/1 tables on nearly any site on the internet.Rest my case.CT

no.you can't beat those games. everybody sucks and calls three bets cold with bottom pair and chases to the river.the players used to be better, and that's when the game could be beaten. now, i have to make sure to play higher limits so that i can actually win.aseem

[Smasharoo 0]

do you guys think that online players overall are starting to improveNo, but they're still rocket scientists compared to live players.

[PrtyPSux 0]

do you guys think that online players overall are starting to improveNo, but they're still rocket scientists compared to live players.

yeah, I dont get that..how come every book I read says something like "online you can play these more marginal hands and you'll still be the tightest player at your table" they always implie that online has really loose games with thousands of calling stations, but the times Ive played live it has been 10 x more loose.

[DefecatingDeer 0]

.. they've actually gotten worse. Not worse in a "kickass, I'm gonna get my top pair paid off by a busted gutshot" kinda way.. worse in a, "this guy is not folding. EVER. and neither are the other 6 or 7 people here" way.I always hear how you want these calling stations in your game. I don't. I played a $50 heads-up match recently with a guy from Sweden. Great player, great game. I like playing against people who know when to fold.. or at least know HOW to fold.For me, the games are worse now than at any point before. These guys play with just reckless abandon. Doesn't matter if you're a 90% favorite, they'll call (they'll even raise sometimes!) and hit that miracle. KK vs 66, vs Q7s .. I make 3 kings, other guy has 3 6s.. we both lose to Q7. Why are you in a capped pot with Q7?Strangely, though.. the 2 cent/4 cent game is beatable :!:Any kind of limit game, O8/Stud/Stud8/Hold em, at the lower limits.. unbeatable. Forget it.

[Patricnz 0]

.. they've actually gotten worse. Not worse in a "kickass, I'm gonna get my top pair paid off by a busted gutshot" kinda way.. worse in a, "this guy is not folding. EVER. and neither are the other 6 or 7 people here" way.I always hear how you want these calling stations in your game. I don't. I played a $50 heads-up match recently with a guy from Sweden. Great player, great game. I like playing against people who know when to fold.. or at least know HOW to fold.For me, the games are worse now than at any point before. These guys play with just reckless abandon. Doesn't matter if you're a 90% favorite, they'll call (they'll even raise sometimes!) and hit that miracle. KK vs 66, vs Q7s .. I make 3 kings, other guy has 3 6s.. we both lose to Q7. Why are you in a capped pot with Q7?Strangely, though.. the 2 cent/4 cent game is beatable :!:Any kind of limit game, O8/Stud/Stud8/Hold em, at the lower limits.. unbeatable. Forget it.

a lot of pople are going to completely disagree with what you have just stated

[chindi 0]

Any kind of limit game, O8/Stud/Stud8/Hold em, at the lower limits.. unbeatable. Forget it.

a lot of pople are going to completely disagree with what you have just stated

Not a lot of people will disagree. The low level limit games can be very profitable if you're getting cards, but there is absolutely no value in making anything other than basic plays because people will call you down with absolute horrid hands or the most infintesimal draws, and depending on the night that can wreck your session, and most of them will not fold. Ever. This is great when they completely miss, but there ya go.

[closetwin 0]

.. they've actually gotten worse. Not worse in a "kickass, I'm gonna get my top pair paid off by a busted gutshot" kinda way.. worse in a, "this guy is not folding. EVER. and neither are the other 6 or 7 people here" way.I always hear how you want these calling stations in your game. I don't. I played a $50 heads-up match recently with a guy from Sweden. Great player, great game. I like playing against people who know when to fold.. or at least know HOW to fold.For me, the games are worse now than at any point before. These guys play with just reckless abandon. Doesn't matter if you're a 90% favorite, they'll call (they'll even raise sometimes!) and hit that miracle. KK vs 66, vs Q7s .. I make 3 kings, other guy has 3 6s.. we both lose to Q7. Why are you in a capped pot with Q7?Strangely, though.. the 2 cent/4 cent game is beatable :!:Any kind of limit game, O8/Stud/Stud8/Hold em, at the lower limits.. unbeatable. Forget it.

a lot of pople are going to completely disagree with what you have just stated

I'm pretty sure he's joking. There was QUITE a thread yesterday or the day before about how 3/6 is TOTALLY unbeatable because people don't fold (the OP claimed Daniel couldn't beat any 3/6 game) and I think it's a joking reference to that thread.

[Mattnxtc 0]

1 guy played and raised evey hand...he lasted 5 minutes...another guy couldnt understand why ace high wasnt holding up yet he kept betting it to the river...another guy would chase with bottom pair every time.....they all went broke...i think the play is getting worse

[krup24 0]

Are online players getting better?Absolutely not. Worse if you ask me. Now everyone wants to be a poker player and new fish come to the pond everyday. Yesterday I was playing some .5/1 PL omaha. To make a long story short the villian raised the pot to me after I made a pot bet. Pot was pretty large and with four to the flush on the board I had KJ of clubs for a king high flush. I just called his bet putting him on the dreaded A high nut flush and the clown had only the A of clubs and thought he could just play that like Hold em. He did not have a flush in fact I think he had a pair of 7s.Comedy

[Bohunkas 0]

Any kind of limit game, O8/Stud/Stud8/Hold em, at the lower limits.. unbeatable. Forget it.

Wow. I am noticing that myself... trying to get my O8/HE limit feet wet at .25/.50 on just about any site, I'm finding the same thing. It's frustrating, and leaves me wondering if I shouldn't stick to NLHE until I have the bankroll to play 5/10, and just read up. At least in NL it's easier to push out the miracle draw hands.

[Briguy 0]

Any kind of limit game, O8/Stud/Stud8/Hold em, at the lower limits.. unbeatable. Forget it.

a lot of pople are going to completely disagree with what you have just stated

Not a lot of people will disagree. The low level limit games can be very profitable if you're getting cards, but there is absolutely no value in making anything other than basic plays because people will call you down with absolute horrid hands or the most infintesimal draws, and depending on the night that can wreck your session, and most of them will not fold. Ever. This is great when they completely miss, but there ya go.

Why is this bad? Play hands that are +EV preflop, play ABC postflop, and you will win lots of money against the crazies. What's more, you won't have to think very hand while winning this money. Without having to think, you can multitable, limiting your exposure to negative variance and increasing your winrate per hour. Sounds like a good situation to me.

[Sushiman 0]

The tables have to be getting somewhat better. All the fish who signed up when Moneymaker won have to be getting some grasp of the game by now, not to mention lots of newbies are reading books. Besides, i can't imagine the quality of the average player getting much worse from like 1-2 years ago.

[chipinchair 0]

Internet players are easily the most beatable players still (besides a lot of B&M games in Vegas and in CT while people are drunk/on vacation). I have had great success in beating the games consistently over the past 2 years or so, in fact the last 3-4 months have been a gold mine at relatively low-limit NL games ($50-$100 NL). Beleive me, the donkeys are out there, if they are not at your table then move to one they are at! I usually pick the 2 biggest fish and target them (they are the ones going all-in on TP) -- wait and hope you can take their money before another 'good' player does first.

[econ_tim 0]

This is an intervention.If the any game at .5/1 seems unbeatable, it is because you don't know how to play it as well as you think you do.It's time for you to "reassess your chess" and admit that your game is missing something if you can't beat players who limp with any two suited cards and call down to the river.

[PT0077 0]

Are online players getting better?Absolutely not. Worse if you ask me. Now everyone wants to be a poker player and new fish come to the pond everyday. Yesterday I was playing some .5/1 PL omaha. To make a long story short the villian raised the pot to me after I made a pot bet. Pot was pretty large and with four to the flush on the board I had KJ of clubs for a king high flush. I just called his bet putting him on the dreaded A high nut flush and the clown had only the A of clubs and thought he could just play that like Hold em. He did not have a flush in fact I think he had a pair of 7s.Comedy

Isn't this a fairly standard spot for a bluff for him though? I heard Daniel make this play before. Granted, he may have said he thought it was like holdem, but I know many good players that would make the same play because there is a good chance that a good player will lay down a K flush there.And don't think I'm saying you're not a good player because you are I'm sure, and I'm sure you had a read on him. So, anyways, I just wanted to share my opinion because that is a great spot for a bluff.

[UglyJimStudly 0]

Why is this bad? Play hands that are +EV preflop, play ABC postflop, and you will win lots of money against the crazies.

It's "bad" in the sense that most players have a really bad case of fancy play syndrome, thinking they should be able to play all sorts of bizarre cards with outrageous bluffs and have the rest of the table just give 'em chips for their obvious uberness. Such players just don't have the patience or knowledge to play +EV preflop and ABC postflop, and it's easier on their ego to say "NOBODY can win at this table" instead of "I can't win at this table."

[guinevar 0]

You don't understand the math of poker if you are complaining about people chasing draws when they are 90% dogs to win.

[creepy20 0]

for all the people who play low limit poker..go read small stakes holdem by sklansky....then try to "beat the low limit games" ie : after about 25,000 hands if you are up a substantial amount then you are beating the game....if you still can't beat them consistantly...go read the book again....play 50,000 hands and hopefully you will be up....if you STILL cant beat the games and haven't figured it out yet...thats right..you guessed it..READ IT AGAIN then play 100,000 handsafter that if you aren't up then move up to 50/100 nl where the "good" players are...you should be able to beat that game. (sw)

[pogiolithis 0]

Internet players are easily the most beatable players still (besides a lot of B&M games in Vegas and in CT while people are drunk/on vacation). I have had great success in beating the games consistently over the past 2 years or so, in fact the last 3-4 months have been a gold mine at relatively low-limit NL games ($50-$100 NL). Beleive me, the donkeys are out there, if they are not at your table then move to one they are at! I usually pick the 2 biggest fish and target them (they are the ones going all-in on TP) -- wait and hope you can take their money before another 'good' player does first.

So True. If it came down to playing an experieced online player or experienced BM player, I would take the internet player in a heartbeat.

[Hextall27 0]

Are online players getting better?Absolutely not. Worse if you ask me. Now everyone wants to be a poker player and new fish come to the pond everyday. Yesterday I was playing some .5/1 PL omaha. To make a long story short the villian raised the pot to me after I made a pot bet. Pot was pretty large and with four to the flush on the board I had KJ of clubs for a king high flush. I just called his bet putting him on the dreaded A high nut flush and the clown had only the A of clubs and thought he could just play that like Hold em. He did not have a flush in fact I think he had a pair of 7s.Comedy

Isn't this a fairly standard spot for a bluff for him though? I heard Daniel make this play before. Granted, he may have said he thought it was like holdem, but I know many good players that would make the same play because there is a good chance that a good player will lay down a K flush there.And don't think I'm saying you're not a good player because you are I'm sure, and I'm sure you had a read on him. So, anyways, I just wanted to share my opinion because that is a great spot for a bluff.

I think that's called a naked ace bluff. I remember Farha using it.

[chindi 0]

Not a lot of people will disagree. The low level limit games can be very profitable if you're getting cards, but there is absolutely no value in making anything other than basic plays because people will call you down with absolute horrid hands or the most infintesimal draws, and depending on the night that can wreck your session, and most of them will not fold. Ever. This is great when they completely miss, but there ya go.

Why is this bad? Play hands that are +EV preflop, play ABC postflop, and you will win lots of money against the crazies. What's more, you won't have to think very hand while winning this money. Without having to think, you can multitable, limiting your exposure to negative variance and increasing your winrate per hour. Sounds like a good situation to me.

Just a couple of observations: 1) I never said that I wouldn't disagree about the beatability of a low limit game.2) Other than specific wording, you will not find a huge disagreement between what you just said and what I said. Basic plays = ABC Poker. 3) The lack of possibility of getting paid off by playing non-ABC poker is frustrating to some players. It is nice, on occasion, to play with better players who know the value of folding. 4) There can also be fairly significant negative variance at the low level tables when you consider 'schooling', while you're a favorite against 1 or 2 bad draws, three or four of them can really start to play havoc with you even over time if it's every hand.

[chindi 0]

This is an intervention.If the any game at .5/1 seems unbeatable, it is because you don't know how to play it as well as you think you do.It's time for you to "reassess your chess" and admit that your game is missing something if you can't beat players who limp with any two suited cards and call down to the river.

I don't think anyone said they can't beat those players.I think it's been said multiple times that the variance can be frustrating when those people hit their hands, but that otherwise there is money to be had there.I do think we all appreciate you telling people that respect the possible negative variance of 'schooling' don't play as well as they think they do and have major holes in their game. If you don't understand the % impact over time of multiple players in with variant draws in multiple pots... then you're not the player you think you are either.