New Challenge: Movin' On Up

[KingJames 11]

Dumb questions about rootbeer...What if you get raised on flop/turn/river using the AK hand as an example. Would you flat there bet if say, villain raised you to pot on flop? Guess it depends on depth, but if you are both deep, then turn is a blank, do you fire another root beer shot, and if so if you get raised again, then what? Is rootbeer floating something to do against a known villain style?? Interesting concept.

I could be wrong bc I am not wise to the ways of the root beer. In fact, my AK hand was my first root beer.The point of the small bet is to get the villain to float or raise. It's an inducement, so if we are raised, we would likely 3bet. Per everything in poker it's dependent on villain and board texture etc.If you are reallllly deep, I think root beering is bad, but I dunno. Mr Galfond makes his example at 100bbs

[CorvairShaggy 5]

I could be wrong bc I am not wise to the ways of the root beer. In fact, my AK hand was my first root beer.The point of the small bet is to get the villain to float or raise. It's an inducement, so if we are raised, we would likely 3bet. Per everything in poker it's dependent on villain and board texture etc.If you are reallllly deep, I think root beering is bad, but I dunno. Mr Galfond makes his example at 100bbs

OK, so basically, be careful root beering if you brick and do not know villain to well. I've tried it a few times last night/this morning and getting mostly folds, and sometimes they will have 1 sip, but leave when it is time for the next. I did, however, this morning pull of a 3-bet semi-bluff on the flop after reading your post.

[QED 4]

Moved back to 25NL, nice set up imo.Feral Cow Poker Hand ConverterFull Tilt No-Limit Hold'em $0.10/$0.25 - 9 playersUTG+1: $34.03 MP: $24.75 (Hero)MP2: $25.00 HJ: $24.36 CO: $9.75 Button: $36.39 SB: $25.00 BB: $13.71 UTG: $29.86 Preflop: ($0.35) Hero is MP with (9 players)2 folds, Hero raises to $0.85, MP2 calls $0.85, 4 folds, BB calls $0.60Flop: ($2.65) (3 players)BB checks, Hero bets $1.50, MP2 calls $1.50, BB calls $1.50Turn: ($7.15) (3 players)BB checks, Hero bets $4, MP2 calls $4, BB raises to $11.36, and is all in, Hero calls $7.36, MP2 raises to $22.65, and is all in, Hero calls $11.04, and is all inRiver: ($63.31) (3 players)Hero showed , and won ($60.31) with three of a kind, QueensMP2 showed , and lost with three of a kind, EightsBB showed , and lost with two pair, Aces and QueensHero won $60.31(Rake: $3)

[KingJames 11]

nh, sir!Great flop, excellent turn card, ezzzzzz gameI'm pretty sick so I haven't played the last few days :(I am however watching a lot of videos and I am very seriously studying PLO for the first time ever. d/l'd a bunch of PLO videosI suspect there will be a PLO challenge thread next year or maybe just add it into this thread.

[QED 4]

I started out trying Omaha h/l but getting quatered tilted me too much. The swings in holdem are bad enough for me right now, don't think I could handle omaha Did you see the video on poker static where phil galfond goes over the biggest hands from his omaha battle with jungleman? Pretty interesting.

[KingJames 11]

I started out trying Omaha h/l but getting quatered tilted me too much. The swings in holdem are bad enough for me right now, don't think I could handle omaha Did you see the video on poker static where phil galfond goes over the biggest hands from his omaha battle with jungleman? Pretty interesting.

Yeah, pretty cool video. I am a huge galfond fanboy"I like the way I played it. Unfortunately JM has the top of his range and I didn't suck out"

[SuperJon 175]

Yeah, pretty cool video. I am a huge galfond fanboy"I like the way I played it. Unfortunately JM has the top of his range and I didn't suck out"

If you haven't seen these Dwan vs. Zigmund PLO HU video from the Million Dollar Challenge, it's good stuff.

Split up into different parts. Galfond does some really amazing commentary.

[QED 4]

I tried my first root beer here but I got lost on the end. Villain is something like a 4/4 over less than 50 hands. Should I have just bet out the river for value? We bet weak to keep hands in but there aren't many hands we beat here other than QQ and maybe KQ.Feral Cow PokerFull Tilt No-Limit Hold'em $0.10/$0.25 - 9 playersHJ: $14.80 CO: $11.01 Button: $29.64 SB: $24.58 (Hero)BB: $46.91 UTG: $25.00 UTG+1: $34.78 MP: $37.47 MP2: $30.20 Preflop: ($0.35) Hero is SB with (9 players)3 folds, MP2 raises to $0.75, 3 folds, Hero raises to $2.50, BB folds, MP2 calls $1.75Flop: ($5.25) (2 players)Hero bets $1.50, MP2 calls $1.50Turn: ($8.25) (2 players)Hero bets $2.25, MP2 calls $2.25River: ($12.75) (2 players)Hero checks, MP2 bets $7

[KingJames 11]

I would not 3b AQo oop vs a guy running 4/4. I would likely fold bc I'm a nit, but I think calling pre-flop or folding would be fine.3balling seems bad to me, but I dunno

[KingJames 11]

btw I am likely c/f riverWe really can't be called by worse if we bet or get better to foldAnd i think we are behind his value range and I don't know if he has a lot of bluffs

[fighter 4]

I would not 3b AQo oop vs a guy running 4/4. I would likely fold bc I'm a nit, but I think calling pre-flop or folding would be fine.3balling seems bad to me, but I dunno

If your thinking about folding this hand, I would assume that this is the top of your folding range. If that is the case this should be the hand you bluff with.

btw I am likely c/f riverWe really can't be called by worse if we bet or get better to foldAnd i think we are behind his value range and I don't know if he has a lot of bluffs

I would call, I don't think that any value hand(we don't beat) would let us get away with betting only 1/4 pot on the turn with 2 flushes and 2 wacky straight draws possible.

[fighter 4]

Dollar a hand is easy when you cooler people Dont have a cow, heres your converted handHEM/IPoker NL Hold'em $0.25/$0.50 - 6 playersUTG: $28.57 UTG+1: $54.75 CO: $100.38 (Hero)Button: $134.90 SB: $50.00 BB: $51.90 Preflop: ($0.75) Hero is CO with (6 players)UTG raises to $2.00, UTG+1 folds, Hero calls $2.00, Button calls $2.00, 2 foldsFlop: ($6.75) (3 players)UTG bets $2.00, Hero raises to $7.50, Button calls $7.50, UTG foldsTurn: ($23.75) (2 players)Hero bets $20.00, Button raises to $45.00, Hero raises to $90.88, Button calls $45.88River: ($205.51) (2 players)Button showed , Hero won $202.51

[QED 4]

I would not 3b AQo oop vs a guy running 4/4. I would likely fold bc I'm a nit, but I think calling pre-flop or folding would be fine.3balling seems bad to me, but I dunno

I agree if he is a true 4/4, I probably should have just said he was an unknown as small samples at rush can be especially out. Could be heavily weighted to his early pos hands for example and he could just be card dead over that sample anyway.Hero is a station that is just clicking buttons so called and villain had the T9 spades which I guess makes sense from Fighter's post (nice graph btw). We would have heard from a monster by now, he checks back his weak show down hands (?) and if he has a bricked draw he can only win by betting.

[KingJames 11]

If your thinking about folding this hand, I would assume that this is the top of your folding range. If that is the case this should be the hand you bluff with. I would call, I don't think that any value hand(we don't beat) would let us get away with betting only 1/4 pot on the turn with 2 flushes and 2 wacky straight draws possible.

Yeah, you are likely right on all accounts here. I guess his calling range on the flop and turn has some TT/JJ or KQ type hands. I guess he could turn TT into a bluff if he wants us to fold a Q.But as far as the bolded, yes. Some players are just very passive, especially at 25nl and full-ring. I'm not saying I'm right, but I don't think we can throw out his monsters. Especially a hand like AsXs, of which he can have AQ AJ AT etc. I'm torn on the hand but I am fine with a c/c on the river We certainly have taken a line that under-reps our hand a little bit and has the potential to induce a bluff, so yeah, c/c is cool by me.

Dollar a hand is easy when you cooler people

[x] $1/hand is sexy, nh sir

I agree if he is a true 4/4, I probably should have just said he was an unknown as small samples at rush can be especially out. Could be heavily weighted to his early pos hands for example and he could just be card dead over that sample anyway.Hero is a station that is just clicking buttons so called and villain had the T9 spades which I guess makes sense from Fighter's post (nice graph btw). We would have heard from a monster by now, he checks back his weak show down hands (?) and if he has a bricked draw he can only win by betting.

Oh nice. I didn't read these results until now; nice hand. I guess that shows how unreliable stats are over small samples :/

[QED 4]

Oh nice. I didn't read these results until now; nice hand. I guess that shows how unreliable stats are over small samples :/

I think that's especially the case at rush because it's not continuous. At an extreme end we might have no button or cut off hands in that sample and that can make a big difference where as at normal ring games you've seen the villain over 40 hands in a row. I've seen some really strange stuff on people when checking stats during a hand where they look tight but then you check by position and it's like 25% PFR utg :icon_eek:I agree there are some super passives floating about though at 25NL FR.

[babylondonks 5]

jj9001 mucked Hero showed , and won ($26.47) with two pair, Kings and ThreesHero won $26.47(Rake: $1.39)This is a really good spot to rootbeer

Hero showed , and won ($254) with two pair, Kings and QueensMP showed , and lost with two pair, Queens and NinesHero won $254(Rake: $3)Button showed , and lost with a pair of EightsHero showed , and won ($158) with two pair, Eights and SevensHero won $158(Rake: $3)I actually was trying to take root beer back out of my game there for a bit since I've had people criticize it a lot...and maybe it was a small sample...but it wasn't going well. I do so much better with it in my arsenal. I just see too many benefits. Yes, it causes me some uncomfortable spots where a bigger bet might not...but I'm generally confident in my ability to reason through them.

I think root beering can be important/good but it def has to be understood at a high level (something I can't claim before anyone thinks I'm on a high horse here) for it to be successful in relation to the rest of your poker game. I think both of these spots are pretty sexy to rootbeer. I just think that you rootbeer too often (not that I've sweated you or can claim to know, obv more of your hands you post are going to be rootbeer type hands because it creates unknown spots) and it can definitely kill your value/lead you to being forced to make silly rebluffs in spots where you might be ahead. Like on that second hand with 44 instead of 77 and you get raised you're probably 3 betting a lot right? I think you have to be somewhat "balanced". So I think you'll find that although it works quite well at 100nl rush it's going to be really tough to pull off against 400nl regs on a consistent basis for example.

I tried my first root beer here but I got lost on the end. Villain is something like a 4/4 over less than 50 hands. Should I have just bet out the river for value? We bet weak to keep hands in but there aren't many hands we beat here other than QQ and maybe KQ.River: ($12.75) (2 players)Hero checks, MP2 bets $7

And this is where rootbeering can be misunderstood I think and why it's tough to get good/understand rootbeering in practice because it requires so much trial and error to get a feel for it imo. I think this is a fairly meh spot to rootbeer due to the board texture and villain's stats (and because we're OOP in this context). Although we have the best one pair hand on this board there are very few turn cards we like and we're going to cry if we get raised or called down with our hand strength relative to the board and the opponents range. It puts us in a really unknown spot on the turn and river because we're not sure to what extent we're getting value and whether we're supposed to fold to a raise or what. If the board was something like Q75r I think rootbeering becomes a lot better because we're going to be happy to get it in and turn cards don't necessarily kill our action/make it hard to understand our hand value.That said as played although c/f seems reasonable I think c/c is better because the spade draw bricks

[KingJames 11]

Really good post.OMG, Happy Birthday, Fish!Also, I still miss you a lot bc you are never on skype or AIM

[fighter 4]

jj9001 mucked Hero showed , and won ($26.47) with two pair, Kings and ThreesHero won $26.47(Rake: $1.39)This is a really good spot to rootbeerI think root beering can be important/good but it def has to be understood at a high level (something I can't claim before anyone thinks I'm on a high horse here) for it to be successful in relation to the rest of your poker game. I think both of these spots are pretty sexy to rootbeer. I just think that you rootbeer too often (not that I've sweated you or can claim to know, obv more of your hands you post are going to be rootbeer type hands because it creates unknown spots) and it can definitely kill your value/lead you to being forced to make silly rebluffs in spots where you might be ahead. Like on that second hand with 44 instead of 77 and you get raised you're probably 3 betting a lot right? I think you have to be somewhat "balanced". So I think you'll find that although it works quite well at 100nl rush it's going to be really tough to pull off against 400nl regs on a consistent basis for example.And this is where rootbeering can be misunderstood I think and why it's tough to get good/understand rootbeering in practice because it requires so much trial and error to get a feel for it imo. I think this is a fairly meh spot to rootbeer due to the board texture and villain's stats (and because we're OOP in this context). Although we have the best one pair hand on this board there are very few turn cards we like and we're going to cry if we get raised or called down with our hand strength relative to the board and the opponents range. It puts us in a really unknown spot on the turn and river because we're not sure to what extent we're getting value and whether we're supposed to fold to a raise or what. If the board was something like Q75r I think rootbeering becomes a lot better because we're going to be happy to get it in and turn cards don't necessarily kill our action/make it hard to understand our hand value.That said as played although c/f seems reasonable I think c/c is better because the spade draw bricks

I don't get why he would 3 bet with 44 but call down with 77. The only difference is hand strength is he beats 5x hands and 66 which I am unsure take this line instead of call turn.

[SuperJon 175]

Villain is 27/12 over small sample (45 hands)I feel like I went wrong somewhere on this hand. The river seemed like such a bad card, but then I thought about it more, and didn't really think a 27/12 would be c/r with a 9. Now I think my hand looks more like a 99,98,97,A9 type hand. So I think with his bet sizing, he wants me to have one of those hands, because he has it crushed with like 910 or a possible FH.Converted by the cows of Feral Cow PokerPokerStars No-Limit Hold'em $0.25/$0.50 - 5 playersButton: $38.85 SB: $52.80 BB: $63.40 UTG: $47.65 CO: $66.05 (Hero)Preflop: ($0.75) Hero is CO with (5 players)UTG folds, Hero raises to $1.50, 2 folds, BB calls $1Flop: ($3.25) (2 players)BB checks, Hero bets $2, BB raises to $5, Hero calls $3Turn: ($13.25) (2 players)BB bets $7, Hero calls $7River: ($27.25) (2 players)BB bets $17.50, Hero foldsBB collected $25.95(Rake: $1.30)

[babylondonks 5]

I don't get why he would 3 bet with 44 but call down with 77. The only difference is hand strength is he beats 5x hands and 66 which I am unsure take this line instead of call turn.

On the flop the hand strength is pretty much the same but 77 can stand up to a random turn/river card a lot better than 44 can. It's like I think I'd rather have AK than 44 in that spot.

[fighter 4]

On the flop the hand strength is pretty much the same but 77 can stand up to a random turn/river card a lot better than 44 can. It's like I think I'd rather have AK than 44 in that spot.

44 is much weaker since it is a pair smaller then 3rd card (5). If I change the card to a (3) 990 games 0.005 secs 198,000 games/sec

Board: 5d 8c 8sDead: equity win tie pots won pots tied Hand 0: 71.768% 71.62% 00.15% 709 1.50 { 7c7s }Hand 1: 28.232% 28.08% 00.15% 278 1.50 { QhTh }--- 990 games 0.063 secs 15,714 games/secBoard: 5d 8c 8sDead: equity win tie pots won pots tied Hand 0: 61.768% 60.10% 01.67% 595 16.50 { 4c4s }Hand 1: 38.232% 36.57% 01.67% 362 16.50 { QhTh }

---Text results appended to pokerstove.txt 990 games 0.005 secs 198,000 games/secBoard: 8c 8s 3dDead: equity win tie pots won pots tied Hand 0: 69.949% 69.80% 00.15% 691 1.50 { 4c4s }Hand 1: 30.051% 29.90% 00.15% 296 1.50 { QhTh }--- 990 games 0.005 secs 198,000 games/secBoard: 8c 8s 3dDead: equity win tie pots won pots tied Hand 0: 71.768% 71.62% 00.15% 709 1.50 { 7c7s }Hand 1: 28.232% 28.08% 00.15% 278 1.50 { QhTh }

I agreed though, they are both bluff catching against the same types of hands, AK just has more redraw value. This is show in the Equity calculations.

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt 990 games 0.005 secs 198,000 games/secBoard: 8c 8s 5dDead: equity win tie pots won pots tied Hand 0: 76.414% 75.96% 00.45% 752 4.50 { AcKs }Hand 1: 23.586% 23.13% 00.45% 229 4.50 { QhTh }------ 990 games 0.005 secs 198,000 games/secBoard: 8c 8s 3dDead: equity win tie pots won pots tied Hand 0: 76.414% 75.96% 00.45% 752 4.50 { AcKs }Hand 1: 23.586% 23.13% 00.45% 229 4.50 { QhTh }---

[fighter 4]

Villain is 27/12 over small sample (45 hands)I feel like I went wrong somewhere on this hand. The river seemed like such a bad card, but then I thought about it more, and didn't really think a 27/12 would be c/r with a 9. Now I think my hand looks more like a 99,98,97,A9 type hand. So I think with his bet sizing, he wants me to have one of those hands, because he has it crushed with like 910 or a possible FH.Converted by the cows of Feral Cow PokerPokerStars No-Limit Hold'em $0.25/$0.50 - 5 playersButton: $38.85 SB: $52.80 BB: $63.40 UTG: $47.65 CO: $66.05 (Hero)Preflop: ($0.75) Hero is CO with (5 players)UTG folds, Hero raises to $1.50, 2 folds, BB calls $1Flop: ($3.25) (2 players)BB checks, Hero bets $2, BB raises to $5, Hero calls $3Turn: ($13.25) (2 players)BB bets $7, Hero calls $7River: ($27.25) (2 players)BB bets $17.50, Hero foldsBB collected $25.95(Rake: $1.30)

I would fold turn. If you knew more about him I might even fold flop. If he is c/r the flop with random over cards like AQ, JT ect he is unlikely to continue on a board pairing turn against an unknown. His pre flop stats make him seem like the type of player that wouldn't c/r TT or JJ trying to go for thin value. If he was interested in trying to exctract thin value there wouldn't be such a discrepancy between his PFR and VPIP

[QED 4]

And this is where rootbeering can be misunderstood I think and why it's tough to get good/understand rootbeering in practice because it requires so much trial and error to get a feel for it imo. I think this is a fairly meh spot to rootbeer due to the board texture and villain's stats (and because we're OOP in this context). Although we have the best one pair hand on this board there are very few turn cards we like and we're going to cry if we get raised or called down with our hand strength relative to the board and the opponents range. It puts us in a really unknown spot on the turn and river because we're not sure to what extent we're getting value and whether we're supposed to fold to a raise or what. If the board was something like Q75r I think rootbeering becomes a lot better because we're going to be happy to get it in and turn cards don't necessarily kill our action/make it hard to understand our hand value.That said as played although c/f seems reasonable I think c/c is better because the spade draw bricks

I agree, I think this wasn't a good board to try it out on. Thanks for the comments and insight. Here is another spot I've gotten myself into because I'm not thinking things through properly during the hand. Villain is unknown as per usual. On the turn I haz the nuts so I auto 3 bet, when the river hits stack sizes make it that I don't have a clue what to do. 30 behind and 40 in the pot makes me feel like I can't make a bet without essentially commiting. My friend says he would always bet this spot for value but I'm really unsure as to what to do. If I open shove I don't know if I ever get called by a random Q, probably just boats? If I just bet small or check and he shovels I don't know if he can ever be doing it with a worse hand because my turn 3bet may well have scared out all of his pair and gut shot type junk he limp/calls from utg. beware the feral cow packs. they hunger.Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em $0.10/$0.25 - 9 playersUTG+1: $24.10 MP: $25.54 MP2: $32.74 HJ: $32.80 CO: $22.69 Button: $44.90 SB: $51.10 (Hero)BB: $28.50 UTG: $50.84 Preflop: ($0.35) Hero is SB with (9 players)UTG calls $0.25, 6 folds, Hero raises to $1.25, BB folds, UTG calls $1Flop: ($2.75) (2 players)Hero bets $1.50, UTG calls $1.50Turn: ($5.75) (2 players)Hero bets $3, UTG raises to $6, Hero raises to $18, UTG calls $12River: ($41.75) (2 players)

[KingJames 11]

I would bet the turn larger, ~$4-$4.50Pretty sure the river is just a shove vs an unknown. They will have a boat sometimes, but I'm sure shoving is still +evAnd until you know if they can bluff shove a missed draw, I wouldn't check to induce... I think checking just loses you a ton of value

[SuperJon 175]

Feral Cow Poker Hand ConverterPokerStars No-Limit Hold'em $0.25/$0.50 - 5 playersUTG: $178.45 CO: $52.25 (Hero)Button: $95.40 SB: $61.50 BB: $64.20 Preflop: ($0.75) Hero is CO with (5 players)UTG folds, Hero raises to $1.50, Button raises to $5.50, SB folds, BB folds, Hero raises to $13, Button calls $7.50Flop: ($26.75) :D (2 players)Hero bets $12.50, Button raises to $45.25, Hero calls $26.75 and is all-inTurn: ($105.25) (2 players)River: ($105.25) (2 players)Hero showed , and won ($103.25) with a pair of AcesButton showed , and lost with a pair of QueensHero won $103.25(Rake: $2)