Auto Bail Out?

[hblask 1]

keep in mind the huge supplier base dependent on GM. do they need to be taken into consideration with this?

Should we have kept the suppliers that produced the parts for vacuum tubes in mind a couple of decades ago?It is extremely unlikely that any of the auto companies is going out of business. People are still buying cars, just fewer than before. So they close a few plants. This happens every few years, the economy recovers, and they open new, more efficient ones that can actually compete. If we prop them up, the inefficient plants stay open and when the next economic swing comes, they are in even worse shape, and they ask for *another* bailout.

[copernicus 0]

Totally against the bailout.We bailed out Chrysler in the 80's and that did squat for us. They end up selling Daimler Benz and the rest is history. Thanks for propping us up Uncle Sam we are outta here. Government doesn't belong in business. They can't handle it, should not attempt to do so. If your product sucks or is to expensive…as they say in the airline business. buh buh.We have already tossed billions down the drain in the mortgage bailout and still have more to come in that. We are not France Italy or Japan. Washington should continue what they do best, spending our $$ or stupid bullsh!t. We have that accounted for in our budgets…assuming we have budget but that is a different story!!

Did nothing for us except keep those jobs going and they repaid the loans with interest. Chrysler is a model of what a "bailout" SHOULD be. Whether they were sold or not is irrelevant.

[El Guapo 8]

Did nothing for us except keep those jobs going and they repaid the loans with interest. Chrysler is a model of what a "bailout" SHOULD be. Whether they were sold or not is irrelevant.

They were also sold to Daimler for a ridiculously overpriced amount, and then resold privately for a fraction of their old price. I'd say the old stock holder made out quite nicely on the original sale.

[Balloon guy 158]

They were also sold to Daimler for a ridiculously overpriced amount, and then resold privately for a fraction of their old price. I'd say the old stock holder made out quite nicely on the original sale.

And the only true benchmark for bailing out a company is the happiness of the stock holders

[Sal Paradise 57]

Should we have kept the suppliers that produced the parts for vacuum tubes in mind a couple of decades ago?It is extremely unlikely that any of the auto companies is going out of business. People are still buying cars, just fewer than before. So they close a few plants. This happens every few years, the economy recovers, and they open new, more efficient ones that can actually compete. If we prop them up, the inefficient plants stay open and when the next economic swing comes, they are in even worse shape, and they ask for *another* bailout.

yeah as long as they can still operate while in bankruptcy, I think it would actually be a good thing to let them fail. maybe they'll actually learn how to be profitable and maybe it would even scare the retard workers into understanding that labor unions are a huge problem with their companies. my worry is of a sudden closing of the doors, which I don't know how possible that is since I can't really recall any instance of a company that large going into bankruptcy like this. I mean, I'm all for free markets running their course and what not, I just worry about the implications of a company this big just closing its doors.

[Jeepster80125 0]

Average pay, with benefits, for Chrysler unionized employee:$151,000, or $75 per hour. Average.Seems like a lot.EDIT:How the U.S. Auto Industry Could Operate More Efficiently Without Union InterferenceFord's most advanced assembly plant operates in rural Brazil

[copernicus 0]

Average pay, with benefits, for Chrysler unionized employee:$151,000, or $75 per hour. Average.Seems like a lot.

The benefits portion of that is probably close to 50k, because its based on the negotiated $/hour contribution, a large portion of which is actually paying for unfunded retiree benefits for current retirees. $50/hour average for a mature work force isnt surprising.

[Sal Paradise 57]

The benefits portion of that is probably close to 50k, because its based on the negotiated $/hour contribution, a large portion of which is actually paying for unfunded retiree benefits for current retirees. $50/hour average for a mature work force isnt surprising.

uh, for doing the jobs they do, yeah it is.

[Jeepster80125 0]

What I saw said this is a median. If half the people make more and half make less, it's a lot.Are my definitions right?

[vbnautilus 48]

And the only true benchmark for the success of humanity is the happiness of the stock holders

fyp

[hblask 1]

I mean, I'm all for free markets running their course and what not, I just worry about the implications of a company this big just closing its doors.

You should be more worried about the implications of the government propping up inefficient business practices.

[brvheart 1,752]

<<---- against all bailouts. (I am too)

[aucu 3]

Average pay, with benefits, for Chrysler unionized employee:$151,000, or $75 per hour. Average.Seems like a lot.EDIT:How the U.S. Auto Industry Could Operate More Efficiently Without Union InterferenceFord's most advanced assembly plant operates in rural Brazil

That looks very close to optimal, and no SUVs in sight.

[Nimue1995 1]

I honestly don't know what I think about the auto bailout. On one hand, it's my opinion that bailing out the auto industry will probably in the long run make more economic sense than bailing out AIG again and again and again or bailing out Wall Street and the banks. For one thing, if you're out of a job, you're not spending money and this economy like it or not is consumer driven. So not bailing out the auto industry would have the potential of driving the economy into a depression instead of just a bad recession. But I have a hard time bailing out businesses that aren't going to make it anyway. And if they do go into bankruptcy and basically trash all their union and retirement promises where does that leave the people who are dependant on those funds, who worked all their lives with the promise of that retirement and now have the rug jerked out from under them. This is really a damned if you do and damned if you don't scenario. If we decide to let the auto makers declare bankruptcy, do we have any obligation to those retired folks that now are basically cut loose with nothing but S.S. ? You can bet the automakers won't feel any obligation to them. And if we do bail them out, what kind of restrictions do we put on them to get the money? And doesn't this become just another step toward the socialism that everyone was so scared of during the campaign? I really do hate bailouts of any kind and I voted for the Republican that was running against Max Baucus because Cousin Max voted yes on the Wall Street bailout. I'm also appalled at the latitude that was apparently given to the Treasury Secretary along with the bailout money. He's totally not doing with the money what we the people and Congress were given to believe when it was originally approved. How can we trust him with any more taxpayer money when he's not been that accountable with what was originally given him? Bottom line is just how deep a recession/depression are you all willing to have in this country to teach the automakers a business lesson? And just how much can our economic system take before going under completely? And is printing more money to bail out every business in trouble really the answer? These are not rhetorical but honest questions.

[strategy 4]

the bailout stuff, it's a terrible mindset to have. I almost feel bad for the people with pensions at stake, but let's be realistic, I shouldn't be on the hook for GM's terrible promises. also, I'm semi-pissed that I had to sit through a two hour lecture on the perils of bailouts because my prof was so fired up about this.

[Sal Paradise 57]

yeah, I guess the reason that this one struck a chord with me was that the company I work for would be directly affected by a GM failure and it could probably hurt us enough for me to lose my job (we're not in the automotive industry at all). what sucks though, is that if GM fails, it will be reported as a "failure of the free market" when the reasons behind it's failure are anything but (well, for the most part. stupid people too.)

the bailout stuff, it's a terrible mindset to have. I almost feel bad for the people with pensions at stake, but let's be realistic, I shouldn't be on the hook for GM's terrible promises. also, I'm semi-pissed that I had to sit through a two hour lecture on the perils of bailouts because my prof was so fired up about this.

wouldn't it have been two hours anyways?

[strategy 4]

wouldn't it have been two hours anyways?

he basically droned on about darwin, showed us a few minutes of the puppy cam on yahoo, and then mentioned a few vocab words to look up as an afterthought after class was over. amazing waste of my time.

[85suited 0]

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/artic...10358&imw=Ygood article on toyota

[BaseJester 1]

I think auto bail out is a bad idea.Paulson should at least have to click on "bail out" every time an industry asks for money.

[CaneBrain 95]

If these companies had not been run poorly and outmanuevered by foreign competition at every turn, I might be inclined to give them a break. As it is, I dont think they should get a dime.

[Jeepster80125 0]

GM vs. Toyota: By the Numbersby Diane GengProfitability per VehicleSource: 2005 Harbour ReportGM:Loses $2,331 per vehicleToyota:Makes $1,488 per vehicleNumber of Plants in North AmericaSource: GM & ToyotaGM:77, all unionized. Plans to close 12 facilities by 2008 (see press release).Toyota:12, three unionized in Long Beach, Calif., Fremont, Calif., and Tijuana, Mexico.Production Time per VehicleSource: 2005 Harbour ReportGM:34.3 hours, 2.5% improvement since 2003Toyota:27.9 hours, 5.5% improvement since 2003North American WorkforceSource: GM & Toyota, Dec. 2005GM:White collar: 36,000Production: 106,000.Retirees: 460,000Toyota:White collar: 17,000 Production: 21,000 Retirees: 1,600Health Care Costs per Vehicle in 2004Source: 2005 Harbour Report & A.T. Kearny Inc.GM:$1,525Toyota:$201

[colonel Feathers 5]

If the bailout doesnt happen Detroit goes away,and that is bad because, uhh let me get back to you.

[El Guapo 8]

Technically the Fremont plant is called NUMI and its joint Toyota and GM plant. They build Tacoma's and Saturn's there. FWIW.I had a neighbor who worked there, his job was to test drive every tacoma that came off the line on their test track. So he put the first couple miles on most Tacoma's built in the past 10 years.

[David_Nicoson 1]

Source: GM & Toyota, Dec. 2005GM:White collar: 36,000Production: 106,000.Retirees: 460,000Toyota:White collar: 17,000 Production: 21,000 Retirees: 1,600

Toyota's R&D is in Japan, right? This one doesn't seem like a valid comparison.

[copernicus 0]

Toyota's R&D is in Japan, right? This one doesn't seem like a valid comparison.

Toyota does a decent amount of R&D here, but that isnt the bulk of the white collar work force. Thats administration, a lot of which is in Japan.