Auto Bail Out?

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

I think that we should let the care companies fail, and force canada to annex the entire state of michigan. (after we dump all our toxic and nuclear waste in the UP, obv. )

[CaneBrain 95]

I think that we should let the care companies fail, and force canada to annex the entire state of michigan. (after we dump all our toxic and nuclear waste in the UP, obv. )

France once raised money for their country by selling us land they did not want. How much do you think we can get for Michigan, North Dakota and a state to be named later?

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

France once raised money for their country by selling us land they did not want. How much do you think we can get for Michigan, North Dakota and a state to be named later?

I think it would cost us about 100 billion to get them to take it.

[akoff 0]

France once raised money for their country by selling us land they did not want. How much do you think we can get for Michigan, North Dakota and a state to be named later?

Well done. I would like to keep Ann Arbor if possible. They can have Michigan State we keep Michigan and we are back to having 10 teams in the Big 10. I like it.

[akoff 0]

GM vs. Toyota: By the Numbersby Diane GengNorth American WorkforceSource: GM & Toyota, Dec. 2005GM:White collar: 36,000Production: 106,000.Retirees: 460,000Toyota:White collar: 17,000 Production: 21,000 Retirees: 1,600

Wow that says it all. Aside from GM getting its teeth kicked in on every category. How the hell does anyone believe you can prop up retirees on a 4 to 1 margin and be competitive….it is not possible. So when does Buffet step in and purchase one of these dying wrecks? I assume he will wait until the Union is fully crushed or at least on its knees begging for life support.

[LongLiveYorke 38]

Interesting OP-Ed piece:http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/19/opinion/19romney.html?hp

[Nimue1995 1]

Interesting OP-Ed piece:http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/19/opinion/19romney.html?hp

A very good article in my opinion. In this instance Mitt Romney has the right idea. If only our Congress would listen to him. We can let the auto industry go Chapter 11 and restructure or we can prop up the current losing structure and let them end up restructuring down the road for a greater cost. But we all know from the statistics given above that the industry will not survive in it's current state.

[FCP Bob 1,312]

It isn't just the US that's going to be involved in any bailout. Ontario produces more cars than Michigan does and the General Motors pension situation in Canada is pretty bad although there aren't the same health care costs for retirees here.http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/sto...NStory/Business

GM Canada beset by pension crisisMassive pension deficit presents a quandary for governments that would be on the hook in the event of bankruptcy GREG KEENAN AND MURRAY CAMPBELL From Wednesday's Globe and MailNovember 19, 2008 at 1:00 AM ESTTORONTO — The General Motors of Canada Ltd. pension funds had a shortfall of $4.5-billion as of last November – before the stock market collapse – creating a massive financial headache for the Ontario government and pension cuts for retired employees if the company falls into bankruptcy protection.Senior GM officials revealed the shortfall between the assets in the company's unionized and salaried plans and their liabilities in a meeting yesterday with the editorial board of The Globe and Mail. The shortfalls are measured on a solvency deficiency basis, which would apply if the plans have to be wound up in the event of bankruptcy.“That's another good reason why we want to continue to operate,” David Paterson, GM Canada's vice-president of corporate and environmental affairs, said as he joined chief financial officer John Stapleton in outlining the reasons for the request for financial help from Ontario and Ottawa to help it survive a cash crunch.Backstopping GM's pension fund would further complicate any Canadian moves to support the struggling sector in tandem with a broader U.S.-led bailout of the Detroit Three auto makers. As Ontario and the federal government grapple with their options, GM CEO Rick Wagoner led a parade of industry executives and politicians in making impassioned pleas for aid to Congress in Washington.Mr. Wagoner focused on the dire economic impact of a failure of the industry, warning a Senate panel that personal income in the U.S. would fall by $150-billion (U.S.) and governments would face tax losses of $156-billion over three years.“Such a level of economic devastation would far exceed the government support that our industry needs. This is about much more than just Detroit. It's about saving the U.S. economy from a catastrophic collapse.”In Canada, the auto maker is in compliance with all legal requirements and has a smaller shortfall when the pension funds are measured on a going-concern basis, which essentially amounts to pay-as-you-go. GM is the only company in Ontario that is permitted to make annual payments into the province's Pension Benefits Guarantee Fund instead of being required to finance its pensions on a solvency basis.GM became eligible to do that in the early 1990s when the Canadian units of the Detroit Three and steel makers Algoma Steel Inc. and Stelco Inc. were granted relief from onerous pension payments in part because the government agreed they were too big to fail.A senior Ontario government official said the province is aware of GM's pension shortfall and it will be taken into account in negotiations over providing assistance to the auto industry. The government has not yet seen the auto maker's books.“The ramifications are enormous,” the official said.The government would have to determine not just the impact on individuals of the collapse of GM's pension, but also the cost to the treasury of providing assistance. He noted that the government added money to the pension fund at Stelco as part of a 2006 rescue package and “that's what you'd be looking at, some way of solidifying it.”The official emphasized that Ontario is in the early stages of examining GM's financial situation, although he promised the company's books would be scoured as part of the talks with the auto industry.“We're going to engage some pretty smart people to help us with these kind of negotiations,” the official said.The GM plans have a target of 69-per-cent equities and 31-per-cent fixed-income instruments, Mr. Stapleton said.That kind of ratio almost certainly means the assets in the plans have plunged, pension industry sources and others said yesterday, based on the crash of North American equity markets and studies showing that the value of assets held by pension plans in publicly traded companies has fallen by between 15 and 20 per cent.“One would suspect” the value of assets has fallen, said Sym Gill, director of pensions and benefits for the Canadian Auto Workers union, which represents tens of thousands of GM retirees and active workers. The unionized plan for Ford Motor Co. of Canada Ltd. employees had a solvency deficiency of about $900-million as of this January, Mr. Gill said. The Chrysler Canada Inc. plan was fully funded as of May, 2007, which was the most recent data for that company, he said.Retirees would take a hit in a GM bankruptcy because the provincial fund covers only a portion of the monthly payments up to the first $1,000.If, for example, a pension plan held assets equal to 80 per cent of liabilities when it was wound up, a retiree receiving $3,000 a month before the wind-up would get $800 of the first $1,000 a month, financed by the assets in the plan. The Ontario fund would make up another $200.But the remaining $2,000 a month would be reduced to $1,600 a month – based again on that 80-per-cent figure – leaving a shortfall of $400 a month because of the $1,000 cap on the fund.

[Balloon guy 158]

Many small cities get large percentages of their tax base from the sale of cars.The city next to us gets over 40% of their annual budget from car sales, and are now looking at cutting police services back in order to handle the shortfall.Their response was to pass a new tax on utlities to make up the shortfall.This will be a template we will see in greater and greater frequency.Because you cannot ask the government to cut back.

[nutzbuster 7]

Interesting OP-Ed piece:http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/19/opinion/19romney.html?hp

Mitt always was/is my guy and this is one of the reasons. He 'gets it'.My father, a brother in law and a brother all had/have engineering careers with Chrysler. Many of our friends are involved directly and/or indirectly with the big 3 in one capacity or another. For years they built complete shit and knew it, but did not care because the golden goose would always be there to lay more golden eggs. Then Honda and Datsun (now Nissan) showed, kicked them square in the nuts, and their world changed forever....even though they have virtually scoffed and kept their heads in the sand about it ever since.And those folks just get paid too much imo, another huge strain on the companies. I knew guys making 100K a year watching other guys hook up transmissions. They sat there all day, on used couches they brought in from their homes. And the unions gauranteed their jobs and tremedous wages and pensions, but the good intentions of that are now being realized in a very negative way. The companies can no longer run as they always have. This is painful for many of my friends and family members but the time has finally come to change things or move on.The good times are over for Detroit. They either reinvent themselves quickly or it's over forever there. And they have known this and resisted this for years, but the time has finally come. And if Washington gives these clowns trillions to maintain this way of life I will be very pissed.

[Jeepster80125 0]

Wow that says it all. Aside from GM getting its teeth kicked in on every category. How the hell does anyone believe you can prop up retirees on a 4 to 1 margin and be competitive….it is not possible. So when does Buffet step in and purchase one of these dying wrecks? I assume he will wait until the Union is fully crushed or at least on its knees begging for life support.

I'm willing to bet money that Buffett will never, ever buy one of the Big Three. Have you ever seen him talk about what things he looks for when he buys a business?In order of percentage stake: * Moody’s Corporation (19.1%) * The Washington Post Company (18.2%) * Burlington Northern Santa Fe Corp. (17.5%) * American Express (13.1%) * Wells Fargo (9.2%) * The Coca-Cola Company (8.6%)He wants to invest in businesses with lots of cash and little debt. There is no way that Berkshire will buy any part of the big three.imo

[Balloon guy 158]

I'm willing to bet money that Buffett will never, ever buy one of the Big Three. Have you ever seen him talk about what things he looks for when he buys a business?In order of percentage stake: * Moody’s Corporation (19.1%) * The Washington Post Company (18.2%) * Burlington Northern Santa Fe Corp. (17.5%) * American Express (13.1%) * Wells Fargo (9.2%) * The Coca-Cola Company (8.6%)He wants to invest in businesses with lots of cash and little debt. There is no way that Berkshire will buy any part of the big three.imo

Plus his stock has dropped 40% in the last few monthsWhich means he's worth about $2.2 billion less than he was 2 months ago

[JustDoIt 10]

Excellent article which I totally agree with concerning the big 3.http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/19/opinion/...amp;oref=slogin

[LongLiveYorke 38]

Excellent article which I totally agree with concerning the big 3.http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/19/opinion/...amp;oref=slogin

Oh, how original.

[AmScray 355]

I'm willing to bet money that Buffett will never, ever buy one of the Big Three.

Well, obviously, since he's outright said that you couldn't pay him enough to try and run them successfully, given their current state.Still, I think private equity is looming... If not now, then after a restructuring, when the pensions are foisted off onto the government and the bones are put up for auction.

[Vandees 0]

Bailing anyone out = No accountabilityThe Big 3 have to be accountable. If the unions and the Big 3 are serious about making some changes, give them 60 days to come up with a PLAN for the money, and not just come with their hand out. Then maybe something can be worked out. Otherwise, its throwing good money toward bad. I saw a full page ad in the USA Today from GM saying that its a loan and will be paid back. Unfortunately, there were no details on HOW. Tell me HOW, then I may be for it. Until then, no dice.But, in this economy, with even Nissan and Toyota sales down the past 60-90 days, will it matter if new great cars come out if no American is wealthy enough to afford a new car (or thinks they are not wealthy enough)?

[85suited 0]

[silkyjonson 1]

Can someone post a graph of how the Big 3 product blows in so many areas.

[Loismustdie 0]

Oh, how original.

Yeah, please don't go with what makes good business sense and all that bullshit. Big Government!! Yayyyy!!

[strategy 4]

Yeah, please don't go with what makes good business sense and all that bullshit. Big Government!! Yayyyy!!

you might want to catch up on the thread a bit before you tardspew like this, LOL.

[Loismustdie 0]

you might want to catch up on the thread a bit before you tardspew like this, LOL.

In general, I have an idea of what he stands for. If he meant he agrees with Romney I would be shocked, and will take it back. It was a response to him, not the thread. Lol, bitch.

[strategy 4]

In general, I have an idea of what he stands for. If he meant he agrees with Romney I would be shocked, and will take it back. It was a response to him, not the thread. Lol, bitch.

Interesting OP-Ed piece:http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/19/opinion/19romney.html?hp

Excellent article which I totally agree with concerning the big 3.http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/19/opinion/...amp;oref=slogin

It was a joke, see? justdoit re-posted the link. pretty sure LLY also agrees with the op-ed, judging by what he's said on the topic over the last few days.

[Loismustdie 0]

It was a joke, see? justdoit re-posted the link. pretty sure LLY also agrees with the op-ed, judging by what he's said on the topic over the last few days.

Oh, shit. I apologize, LLY. I am happy to see you are not for an auto bailout, because I value your perspective on all things. Except God. And music.

[CaneBrain 95]

Oh, shit. I apologize, LLY. I am happy to see you are not for an auto bailout, because I value your perspective on all things. Except God. And music.

you would be hard pressed to find many dems in general on this forum in favor of the auto bailout. I could live with giving some money to banks. it serves a purpose (if they had been forced to lend it to people....nice going paulson). giving money to auto companies that have sucked donkey balls for decades serves no purpose. does not help that the head honchos of the big 3 all took their G-4 jets to DC to beg for the handout. Where is alanis morrissette when you need her.

[Loismustdie 0]

you would be hard pressed to find many dems in general on this forum in favor of the auto bailout. I could live with giving some money to banks. it serves a purpose (if they had been forced to lend it to people....nice going paulson). giving money to auto companies that have sucked donkey balls for decades serves no purpose. does not help that the head honchos of the big 3 all took their G-4 jets to DC to beg for the handout. Where is alanis morrissette when you need her.

Just saw Alanis last week. I realized during the concert that I have currently seen Alanis as many times as I have Motley Crue. (3) My penis died a little inside that night. Kind of a discombobulated performance. She opened with an amazing rendition of "Uninvited" and I was thinking, "You know, she could have closed with this. I don't see this getting better." I was right. Little audience interaction, doesn't really move on stage all that well,still has a strong voice, though.