Auto Bail Out?

[hblask 1]

Remember the National effects of a Top 50 City being destroyed by a hurricane?

24 hour per day overblown news coverage?Not much else that I can tell.

[hblask 1]

No one buys a five figured item from a company in Bankruptcy.

I'm a few days behind, so I assume someone corrected you on this by now. This is obviously false.For example, if GM went into bankruptcy, and you could buy all their plants and machinery, etc, for $1, would you do it? Obviously you would. So it's not a question of whether they would continue to produce cars, it's only a question of how far their costs have to be lowered to make them economically profitable again.A bailout prevents that process, and just causes a bigger problem later.The sky is not falling, GM is not America.

[Pot Odds RAC 23]

I'm a few days behind, so I assume someone corrected you on this by now. This is obviously false.For example, if GM went into bankruptcy, and you could buy all their plants and machinery, etc, for $1, would you do it? Obviously you would. So it's not a question of whether they would continue to produce cars, it's only a question of how far their costs have to be lowered to make them economically profitable again.A bailout prevents that process, and just causes a bigger problem later.The sky is not falling, GM is not America.

No one has "corrected" me on this because it is not wrong. Consumers simply will not buy a five figured product (especially a vehicle) form a company in "reorganization". If GM enters Chapter 11 they are done. As far as the resale of GM assets, perhaps some companies will buy their plants at a discount. Or more likely they will incfrease production at their own plants. You continue to ignore the issue of hundreds of suppliers going out of business overnight and what that would do to the US and World Economy. You're wrong - in the short and even mid term, GM is America.

[Pot Odds RAC 23]

24 hour per day overblown news coverage?Not much else that I can tell.

OK. I see now.

[akoff 0]

I plead guilty to being an idiot but I only made about 15 times more then the average worker in my company...I need a job with GM.

[hblask 1]

No one has "corrected" me on this because it is not wrong. Consumers simply will not buy a five figured product (especially a vehicle) form a company in "reorganization". If GM enters Chapter 11 they are done. As far as the resale of GM assets, perhaps some companies will buy their plants at a discount. Or more likely they will incfrease production at their own plants. You continue to ignore the issue of hundreds of suppliers going out of business overnight and what that would do to the US and World Economy. You're wrong - in the short and even mid term, GM is America.

Ah, OK, I misunderstood your original point.I believe consumers would put their purchases on hold until it was decided what was going to happen to GM, but the process would not be lengthy (less than a year, maybe 6 months). By then the market will have priced GM assets appropriately, and either take over the company as a whole or sell the pieces off to more nimble competitors. At that point there will be a pent up demand for cars among the people who were waiting for things to clear up. The total number of jobs lost would be exactly equal to the total number of jobs that should be lost when an inefficient producer has too high of a cost basis. This is exactly what will happen WITH a bailout, so why waste money delaying the inevitable? Let's get the correction over and done with rather than prolong and worsen it.

[hblask 1]

Another MN Congressman replied to my objections to the bailout, and I think his position will, unfortunately, be the prevailing Republican position. It's better than what the Dem's are pushing, but it pretty much guarantees the bailout will happen and the money will all be wasted on feel-good do-nothing programs that do more harm in the long run. Basically, his position is that bailouts are OK as long as politicians are allowed to make business decisions for the auto companies. Sigh, the Republican party continues its death march into oblivion.-----------------------------Thank you for contacting me with your deep concerns about a government bailout for the auto industry. I certainly share your concerns and oppose the plan crafted by Senate Majority Leader Reid (D-NV). With a major automaker in our state, I am extremely concerned about the economic impact from the failure of one or more of the three U.S. automakers. That said, I will not support any taxpayer provided assistance to troubled automakers and others in the industry that is not accompanied with an ironclad assurance that the industry make fundamental changes to ensure its long-term viability. The fact is, the current business model in Detroit doesn't work for the time we live in. Automakers simply must restructure for the 21st century. There must be a shared effort by all - management, labor, creditors, dealers and others - in order to ensure the necessary changes. When executives of GM, Ford and Chrysler came before Congress during the week of November 17, I found it deeply troubling and offensive that they were unable to give any real commitment to the restructuring necessary to ensure long-term success. They failed even to be candid about the amount of assistance needed and whether they will need more funds in the future. To come to Congress and ask for billions in taxpayer support without providing clear and honest answers to the most basic of questions is indefensible. As you may know, on Thursday, November 20, Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid and Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi (D-CA) postponed a vote on their auto rescue bill and instead announced that in order for Congress to consider emergency taxpayer supported assistance, the Big 3 must first provide a long-term viability plan by December 2. I am currently awaiting the submission of this plan, and also monitoring the work of Senators Bond, Voinovich, Levin and Stabenow who are attempting to craft a compromise.One possibility we should consider is pre-packaged bankruptcy as suggested by Senate Banking Committee Chairman Chris Dodd (D-CT) and others. Under this approach, the government would provide financial assistance in return for a bankruptcy-like reorganization that will enable the Big 3 to reemerge as profitable companies.Please know that I will not support any financial rescue plan that merely extends business as usual. It would simply be unacceptable to ask taxpayers for their support if Detroit continues with its failed ways. I appreciate hearing from you and if I may be of further assistance to you or your family in the future, please do not hesitate to contact me again.Sincerely,Norm ColemanUnited States Senate

[strategy 4]

reaaally pushing for coleman's unseating.

[copernicus 0]

reaaally pushing for coleman's unseating.

For Al Franken? You must be joking.

[hblask 1]

For Al Franken? You must be joking.

Yeah, Coleman is the kind of guy I love to hate -- someone who pretends to be for smaller govt as he pushes pet programs through in the middle of the night -- but in this case, the alternative is so much worse, it's painful to even think that some of my neighbors may have voted Democratic this year. Franken is the worst MN politician since, well, maybe Mondale?

[copernicus 0]

Yeah, Coleman is the kind of guy I love to hate -- someone who pretends to be for smaller govt as he pushes pet programs through in the middle of the night -- but in this case, the alternative is so much worse, it's painful to even think that some of my neighbors may have voted Democratic this year. Franken is the worst MN politician since, well, maybe Mondale?

He may be the worst national level politician EVER. the only politician at any level I can think of who comes close is Gavin Nauseum [sic].

[Balloon guy 158]

Plus if Franken loses we can dig up that post by Scram where he was 100% sure Franken would win...

[strategy 4]

For Al Franken? You must be joking.

it's minnesota. the whole affair is a freaking joke. of COURSE I'm rooting for franken!

[akoff 0]

Yeah, Coleman is the kind of guy I love to hate -- someone who pretends to be for smaller govt as he pushes pet programs through in the middle of the night -- but in this case, the alternative is so much worse, it's painful to even think that some of my neighbors may have voted Democratic this year. Franken is the worst MN politician since, well, maybe Mondale?

didn't you have Jesse the body as gov?? with a little more thiought you may well be correct about Mondale...he was worse!!

[hblask 1]

didn't you have Jesse the body as gov?? with a little more thiought you may well be correct about Mondale...he was worse!!

Jesse, even though he was a joke candidate, turned out to be a decent governor. My biggest objection to him is "Ventura's Folly" -- the obscenely expensive light rail system that continues to drain tax money.

[El Guapo 8]

I was listening to a former auto worker from the 70's last night on the radio, who had written a book on the Big 3. He shared some insight as to why foreign cars took over in the 80's and 90's. Basically GM, Ford and Chrysler lobbied to get light trucks and suvs around the gas guzzler status and tax. They made huge profits on these, and basically ignored the compact and mid size car market. Allowing Toyota, Honda, Kia, etc. to take over. Then they tried to jump back in unsuccessfully. When gas started to really increase 2-3 years ago, the sales of trucks, SUV's and minivans dropped significantly which was their bread and butter. They dropped to the point that was almost unrecoverable.It also didn't help that over the last 20 years, most foreign manufacturers have jumped into the SUV market with great success eating into their market share.

[vbnautilus 48]

I was listening to a former auto worker from the 70's last night on the radio, who had written a book on the Big 3. He shared some insight as to why foreign cars took over in the 80's and 90's. Basically GM, Ford and Chrysler lobbied to get light trucks and suvs around the gas guzzler status and tax. They made huge profits on these, and basically ignored the compact and mid size car market. Allowing Toyota, Honda, Kia, etc. to take over. Then they tried to jump back in unsuccessfully. When gas started to really increase 2-3 years ago, the sales of trucks, SUV's and minivans dropped significantly which was their bread and butter. They dropped to the point that was almost unrecoverable.It also didn't help that over the last 20 years, most foreign manufacturers have jumped into the SUV market with great success eating into their market share.

I think they just haven't made the best cars. Even in the SUV category the Honda CRV has been the best selling car for some time now.

[akoff 0]

I was listening to a former auto worker from the 70's last night on the radio, who had written a book on the Big 3. He shared some insight as to why foreign cars took over in the 80's and 90's. Basically GM, Ford and Chrysler lobbied to get light trucks and suvs around the gas guzzler status and tax. They made huge profits on these, and basically ignored the compact and mid size car market. Allowing Toyota, Honda, Kia, etc. to take over. Then they tried to jump back in unsuccessfully. When gas started to really increase 2-3 years ago, the sales of trucks, SUV's and minivans dropped significantly which was their bread and butter. They dropped to the point that was almost unrecoverable.It also didn't help that over the last 20 years, most foreign manufacturers have jumped into the SUV market with great success eating into their market share.

I believe this is pretty much correct however i really don't believe that is the issue. I think the products and the quality coming out of Detriot are pretty good. It is all about cost right now. The big 3 have average cost per hour on the line of approx. 77 per hour. The new factories in the south have a cost of approx. 44 per hour for the same function...it is really that simple. I am not even trying to place blame. It is just a fact of business at this point. They need to be able to cut their costs or they aren't gonna make it.

[El Guapo 8]

I believe this is pretty much correct however i really don't believe that is the issue. I think the products and the quality coming out of Detriot are pretty good. It is all about cost right now. The big 3 have average cost per hour on the line of approx. 77 per hour. The new factories in the south have a cost of approx. 44 per hour for the same function...it is really that simple. I am not even trying to place blame. It is just a fact of business at this point. They need to be able to cut their costs or they aren't gonna make it.

Absolutely. This was pointing out a failed business model, on top of out of control costs and concessions to Unions.

[akoff 0]

Absolutely. This was pointing out a failed business model, on top of out of control costs and concessions to Unions.

i will never miss a chance to agree with you that UNIONS are the problem!!! not the only one just the largest.

[Nimue1995 1]

I think they just haven't made the best cars. Even in the SUV category the Honda CRV has been the best selling car for some time now.

We are on our 3rd Isuzu Trooper. The first 2 we bought from our in-laws after they bought new ones. But our middle daughter rolled and endo'd the 2nd one going 60 mph. There wasn't a straight panel on it. Rolled so violently that the windshield wipers flew off. But the passenger cabin remained intact and she walked away with a few bruises. Shortly after that we saw a Suburban that somebody had rolled and the roof was totally crunched in. That pretty much made our decision to buy the 3rd Isuzu Trooper pretty easy. I'm just sad that it's no longer made. Think it's the Forester in that class now. Having 3 teen drivers in our household at the same time made safety our first concern over gas mileage at the time.

[hblask 1]

So now the auto executives drove to DC in hybrids, since they took so much flak for their private jets last time. Do they really think this is the only reason we're opposed to Welfare For Corporations? The way they get to their begging sessions?The sad thing is their strategy is obvious: just keep going back again and again until the public loses interest and goes back to watching 'Lost'. Is there any way to keep the outrage high enough to kill this nonsense permanently?

[LongLiveYorke 38]

So now the auto executives drove to DC in hybrids, since they took so much flak for their private jets last time. Do they really think this is the only reason we're opposed to Welfare For Corporations? The way they get to their begging sessions?The sad thing is their strategy is obvious: just keep going back again and again until the public loses interest and goes back to watching 'Lost'. Is there any way to keep the outrage high enough to kill this nonsense permanently?

OMG!!! I totally forgot! Lost starts again in a few weeks!!

[JubilantLankyLad 1,957]

So now the auto executives drove to DC in hybrids, since they took so much flak for their private jets last time. Do they really think this is the only reason we're opposed to Welfare For Corporations? The way they get to their begging sessions?The sad thing is their strategy is obvious: just keep going back again and again until the public loses interest and goes back to watching 'Lost'. Is there any way to keep the outrage high enough to kill this nonsense permanently?

wait, they did a long distance highway trip in hybrids? are they more retarded than i thought they were?

[BigLebowski 0]

wait, they did a long distance highway trip in hybrids? are they more retarded than i thought they were?

What's more retarded...them making that trip or the fact that some people actually care they drove instead of took private jets? Complete and total window dressing to cover the fact they ran their companies into the ground and can't even admit it.