Ethics Question ...

[nutzbuster 7]

Is it possible to play great poker with friends? Lemme 'splain... a few examples, sorta long, so sorry...This has happened many times to me. I like to chat it up most times at the tables, crack a few well timed groaners and get at least a few of the folks eating out of my hand. Plus looser happier opponents normally = $$$ for moi.Example/ problem #1 is, every now and then, I end up making buddies with a retard who JUST WON'T SHUT UP! I'm talking male and/or female. I lost an $800 pot one time because an older guy and I got to talking with about traveling through Europe. He was STILL talking about it 2 hours later and was literally tapping my arm when I was in a huge pot! My bad obviously, as I should have just told him "hang on a sec buddy" BUT doing that is a huge tell obviously. I just had to roll with it at that point.I had flopped a set and was pretty sure the guy at the other end had a strong hand as he was calling my raises by practically beating me into the pot. But I did not want to let on I that I had a monster and sort of kept looking at the old guy, smiling and chatting, trying to play my big hand and yet look like I didn't have one. A key card hit the river and all the money went in, and the old guy was STILL flapping away, costing me 800 (on what would appear obvious to me later was a killer river card). But I was so caught up in the situation with the old guy that I flaked out and missed the obvious. What was worse was, as the guy who won the hand was raking in my chips, the old guy suddenly stops his soliloquy on Prague to say "oh, wow...tuff one there, eh?". I wanted to pull out his oxygen tubes and strangle him with them.Anyway, this chattiness at the tables can be a real double edged sword. I like to do it but the downside is obvious. It sometimes can drift into the gray area of the cheating arena as well. I'll make a friend and then sometimes I'll end up telling him "you're beat man" to be nice when I have a huge hand and I am about to crush them if they call. So stupid. The good news is that I am now doing this less and less, and when I get into a tuff spot where I have a great hand and am about to beat the pants off someone I have befriended, I just tell them "sorry man, I gotta play my hand here" and proceed to play accordingly. But ......... one thing that happened a few weeks ago I still can't get out of my mind.Example #2.I have a pretty good poker buddy who used to play major league baseball. Not gonna say who, but he is a pretty tall guy who needs to fold up his legs just to sit at the damn table and I always bitch to him because his stupid legs are always moving under there and knocking into my knees! Anyway, we had been playing for a good while and were yukking it up pretty good, when I look down and find As-Ks on the button. He was on my left in the sb and an MP player makes it $30 to go. I want to raise here, but everyone else had folded and it looked like it was just going to be me and him, so I decide to smooth call in position. All lof the sudden my buddy makes it $100 and, under the table, as he is raising, he knees the crap outta my thigh! I glance over at the MP guy (who is now looking down and thinking pretty hard) and then over to my bud, who is just glaring at me with that "get out friend....you are about to get crucified" look on his face. He kneed me on purpose to tell me to get out!At this point I am feeling all kinds of things. First... my thigh is killing me from the blast it just took from his knee. But mostly I am feeling like "well thanks for heads up man" but, at the same time I am a little annoyed that he would signal me like that. I mean, clearly it is cheating, but what is worse is not only do I have position, I have a great hand! Plus, this is a bad beat jackpot game and we quit possibly could have a winning scenario here! Plus, I just want to call dammitt!So what if I do now?, after his obvious urge for me to fold...what if I call, hit the flop and crush him? How pissed would he be? Why should I care if he gets pissed? Uhg...there are dozens of what if scenarios here. But the thing that rings most clear is that now there is NO WAY I can play this hand like I normally would have if I 'A' - wasn't friends with this guy, and 'B'- he hadn't unethically signaled me. I more I thought about it the more annoyed I became that he had done that. I was ticked.THEN the MP guy calls! Now, I figure I am looking at at least Kings if not aces, as the MP guy has been very quiet all session and I am now fairly sure my hand is crap. But my thinking has been seriously altered due to the situation my friend had put me in. I am actually steamed up a bit, and, now thinking that at least a few of my outs are toast, I reluctantly fold.The flop comes Ac- Kh -7x!!! Of course it does. Man.... My buddy bets out immediately $150, and the MP shows pocket 8's and mucks.My buddy looks at me and says, "I saved you a ton bro" and shows me POCKET TENS!!!! ZOMG!!! I wanted to kill him, and now I am furious. But I also realize I only have myself to blame. I am buddies with this guy, and I genuinely believe he thought he was doing me a favor, but his actions resulted in my laying down a huge hand and lost a big pot as a result. Such a weird situation. I take a walk for 10 minutes and then come back and tell him what I layed down. He got real quiet, finally saying "wow...sorry about that. I though you were limping". Well, YEAH!...but he was right....and wrong too.I guess there is no real point here other than to share how making a friend cost me some decent pots.So I guess it is fair to ask, can you really have a buddy at the table and play great poker? I am talking about folks you don't really know well, but good casino poker friends? End rant.....oh..almost forgot...HAPPY FRIDAY!

[timwakefield 68]

It sometimes can drift into the gray area of the cheating arena as well. I'll make a friend and then sometimes I'll end up telling him "you're beat man" to be nice when I have a huge hand and I am about to crush them if they call. So stupid.

My only suggestion is to keep doing that, except take it to the obvious conclusion of doing it when you have nothing.

[Dogpatch 2]

I'll yuck it up with people... we have one guy who is a riot at the table. He has a comedy shtick and I'll roll with him, but if we end up in a hand together, it's on like Donkey Kong. We were down to the final four in a tourney one night. I was in the BB with AKs, he was in UTG. He raises and says something along the lines of he has QQ, it folds around to me and I push my short stack. He looks at me like I'm crazy and reluctantly calls. He shows TJs. I took the pot down and told him sorry, I had to play my game.Not really the same as your situation, but I'm just saying... at the table I'm doing what I have to do.

[NoSup4U 0]

I think this goes under the topic of, you need to learn to be less emotional at the poker table. If you can seperate your emotions from the game, then playing with friends becomes less of an issue. I have definitely experienced all of the above, it happens a lot for sure.Mark

[jethrodull 0]

My brother and I went to AC to play in some of the donkfest $50-150 tourneys. We talked about what would happen if we hit the same table and basically decided that you play your hand. You have to. I mean, even if he gives you a hint he has a monster, and you know you do as well, you can't talk about it at the table, and so, you have to play your hand. Had you come over the top, or even just called his raise, once the flop came, your betting would have indicated to him that you had the monster and he was beat. Play your own hand, buy him a beer later.J

[bpope44 0]

I really want a donut or a doughnut right now. What is the correct spelling? I am too lazy to look it up.

[blacktie31 0]

Maybe it's just the people i hang out with, but there is nothing sweeter than sending one of them to the rail, or even better yet felting them and then calling a chip runner for them to rebuy.

[zimmer4141 0]

I have no problem being friendly with people at the table, but that friendship ends once we enter a pot.

[nutzbuster 7]

I really want a donut or a doughnut right now. What is the correct spelling? I am too lazy to look it up.

I can't believe I'm going to high-jack my own thread.......but it IS friday!Main Entry: dough·nut Listen to the pronunciation of doughnutVariant(s): also do·nut \-(ˌ)nət\Function: noun Date: circa 18091 : a small usually ring-shaped cake fried in fat 2 : something (as a mathematical torus) that resembles a doughnut especially in shape— dough·nut·like Listen to the pronunciation of doughnutlike \-ˌlīk\ adjectiveMain Entry: donut Listen to the pronunciation of donutvariant of doughnutARRGGnnnnMMMMMmmummumummmmmm

[YBravo 0]

Personally I enjoy beating my close friends and family a lot more than random people. You can be friendly with people you meet at the casino and still play your game. You just have to make it clear from the start that when you're playing, you're going to play your hardest. If you accept "favors", like other people showing you big hands so you can get out cheaply, then it gets a lot harder to play in situations like the ones you described without hurting people's feelings. Once you start owing people things at the table, you're getting dangerously close to collusion. Also, I don't think it's that big of a tell to say to someone "Hold on a sec, I'm in a hand."

[bpope44 0]

I can't believe I'm going to high-jack my own thread.......but it IS friday!Main Entry: dough·nut Listen to the pronunciation of doughnutVariant(s): also do·nut \-(ˌ)nət\Function: noun Date: circa 18091 : a small usually ring-shaped cake fried in fat 2 : something (as a mathematical torus) that resembles a doughnut especially in shape— dough·nut·like Listen to the pronunciation of doughnutlike \-ˌlīk\ adjectiveMain Entry: donut Listen to the pronunciation of donutvariant of doughnutARRGGnnnnMMMMMmmummumummmmmm

So both are okay? Or is Dunkin Donuts wrong? I'm still confused!

[psujohn 0]

Say "Hang on sec I'm in a hand" think for a minute and then fold. It's no longer a "tell".I enjoy chatting at the table and noticed you get a lot of "us vs them" with one side of the table vs the other. I remember playing one session sitting next to a friendly guy who was having a miserable day. Long streaks of unplayable cards, lots of decent second best hands and more than a few suckouts. We end up in a pot together where I have pocket 22 and flop quads. I check call until the river where I check/min-raise and he reluctantly calls. Pretty sure he had a good pocket pair but put me on a deuce. Anyway a few hands later we're in another pot where the flop comes A77. I lead with something like AT, he min-raises, folds back to me and as I contemplate a call he says "I DON'T have an A". I fold and he shows the 7. Just saying - sometimes it pays to be friendly and allow others to save you money - just don't think I'm going to return the favor.As for playing with established friends? I'd rather avoid it if possible.

[Balloon guy 158]

In the first example, talking with the old guy and trying not to act like you have a big hand...THAT was the tell. Not telling him to hold on.In the second example, you were not going to win a huge pot. Had the baseball player folded, that flop would have shut down pocket 8s all day, so you really only lost 2 BBs, you only would have won more from your buddy, which is where you are conflicted really.When I go into a game with a buddy, I clarify to them to play me hard, cause that's what I'm going to do.BTW on June 6th I am going to try to suck you into bad bets and then crush your dreams and take your money. Feel free to do likewise.

[mtdesmoines 3]

I try to make everyone at the table either my buddy buddy or my enemy. Happy people are loose people. As far as that goes, enemies can be loose, too.

[ForRealDD 0]

I've found myself in these scenarios plenty of times at tournaments, and I've also found that when you're out of a hand, be friends all you want; but when you're in a hand, none of that should matter. You're opponent is exactly that, and you're there to beat him. I was in a similar situation as Nutz in a sat. I had the table covered by a good bit and raised from MP with KQ, my "buddy" then says, " You should just fold" and shoves the rest of his chips in, getting a good price I still folded assuming he had AK,KK, QQ, somewhere in there . He tables 99 and says "Did I have you beat" ......Yeah buddy....you had me beat.

[CBass1724 1]

My buddies and I take personal pleasure in busting one another at the poker table. Of course we'd prefer to bust other people, but you can't really choose when you are going to get monster hands so you have to play them when you can. If it happens to be against a good buddy then so be it. The only other thing we might do in a tournament is play saves. If one of us cashes big in a tournament, we might agree in the beginning to get back the entry fee to one another so we all come out not losing. It just depends how much you make though.

[finztotheleft 0]

So both are okay? Or is Dunkin Donuts wrong? I'm still confused!

Blasphemy !

[GWCGWC 83]

A few things:I'm on a diet so I should never open one of your threads on Friday. you.bastardI hope you made it clear to your baseball player friend that what he did was collusion and should never take place. It's not a gray area like stealing signals from second base. It's cheating. Making buddies at the table can lead to very profitable situations. Keep doing that.

Maybe it's just the people i hang out with, but there is nothing sweeter than sending one of them to the rail, or even better yet felting them and then calling a chip runner for them to rebuy.

Now this is the way poker's supposed to be played.

[Guru1069 0]

I see your point I don't like a quiet table either but it comes down to the money in poker. First place brand new cadillac, second place set of steak knives, third place is YOU"RE FIRED!! lol Still I don't like AK versus 2 pocket pair. If there was a signal you made the right play. Friends aren't so friendly when they think they're being cheated. Good Luck Man

[SavagePenguin 0]

I have an ethics question of my own.Last month I carpooled to a tournament with an acquaintance of my wife. I'd only met the guy a couple times before, and on the drive he told me that he played really tight. Also, he's the one who drove.We ended up being seated at the same table, and he was indeed playing super-tight.One hand he made a big bet, out of position, and his hand was shaking like wet poodle when he meekly put the chips in. To me it was the most obvious thing in the world that this guy had A/A.I bailed out of the hand but a few people called.The flop is something like 9/4/2 rainbow, and he lead out with another bet.The call-station on my left went into the tank. He was looking for any excuse to call. I'd guess he had K/T or something like that.Here's where my dilemma came in. I knew that if I said, "Psht! Obvious continuation bet" that it would be enough encouragement to get the calling-station into the pot. The question was, was it ethical of me to encourage a call when I was no longer involved in the pot?How it ended:I ended up keeping quiet.The guy finally mucked his cards.Someone else ended up going all-in with middle pair, and my ride won with his pocket Aces.(Oh, and the calling-station ended up busting me out a short time later when he hit a three-outer on the river.)

[timwakefield 68]

I have an ethics question of my own.Last month I carpooled to a tournament with an acquaintance of my wife. I'd only met the guy a couple times before, and on the drive he told me that he played really tight. Also, he's the one who drove.We ended up being seated at the same table, and he was indeed playing super-tight.One hand he made a big bet, out of position, and his hand was shaking like wet poodle when he meekly put the chips in. To me it was the most obvious thing in the world that this guy had A/A.I bailed out of the hand but a few people called.The flop is something like 9/4/2 rainbow, and he lead out with another bet.The call-station on my left went into the tank. He was looking for any excuse to call. I'd guess he had K/T or something like that.Here's where my dilemma came in. I knew that if I said, "Psht! Obvious continuation bet" that it would be enough encouragement to get the calling-station into the pot. The question was, was it ethical of me to encourage a call when I was no longer involved in the pot?How it ended:I ended up keeping quiet.The guy finally mucked his cards.Someone else ended up going all-in with middle pair, and my ride won with his pocket Aces.(Oh, and the calling-station ended up busting me out a short time later when he hit a three-outer on the river.)

That would be collusion, and it's not close. If you said "Obvious continuation bet," but were being serious and not trying to help your friend get called, it's also collusion.

[ForRealDD 0]

Here's where my dilemma came in. I knew that if I said, "Psht! Obvious continuation bet" that it would be enough encouragement to get the calling-station into the pot. The question was, was it ethical of me to encourage a call when I was no longer involved in the pot?

Probably just keep quiet there.

[SavagePenguin 0]

That would be collusion, and it's not close. If you said "Obvious continuation bet," but were being serious and not trying to help your friend get called, it's also collusion.

Thanks. Then I did the right thing.What if I didn't know the guy who had A/A, but thought that (due to position and player style) that it was to my advantage to shift chip stacks? It's still improper, right?I should shut up and give away zero information unless I'm active in the pot and trying to manipulate things towards my personal advantage.

[GWCGWC 83]

Thanks. Then I did the right thing.What if I didn't know the guy who had A/A, but thought that (due to position and player style) that it was to my advantage to shift chip stacks? It's still improper, right?I should shut up and give away zero information unless I'm active in the pot and trying to manipulate things towards my personal advantage.

yep

[nutzbuster 7]

yep

Worrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrd.It is easy to be having a good time down at "your end of the table" and get caught up in play by play conversation. I once got scolded pretty good for speaking out while not in a hand. Not fun.