Does 2nd Nuts Equal An All In?

[Roberts2003 0]

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (2 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)Hero ($219.75)Button ($288.90)Preflop: Hero is BB with 2, K. Button raises to $6, Hero calls $4.Flop: ($13) 3, 7, T(2 players)Hero checks, Button bets $2, Hero calls $2.Turn: ($17) A(2 players)Hero checks, Button checks.River: ($17) 8(2 players)Hero bets $16, Button raises to $36, Hero calls $20.Final Pot: $89this guy i was playing was unusually bad. normally at the 1 2 NL heads up level, most people are either at least decent, or overlyaggressive. and overlyaggressive is better then being passive/slowplay happy in heads up. in this hand, when i got raised on the river, i so strongly felt that he had Ax of clubs that i just called river. clearly when you have 2nd nuts, you should almost always get your chips into the middle, but i did not feel it this time. does anyone agree that at times, you should use caution, or should you just always blindly get all your chips in.

[Jdr999 0]

HU, if I have the 2nd nuts, I like to get as much $ in the pot as possible by the end of the hand, assuming nothing has changed that can make my hand inferior (4th club, board pairs). Here is why I like to get my $ in:1. Only one hand that beats me, if they have it, it's a cooler that is beyond my control.2. By betting/raising, you would have a better understanding of what the other player has, and can better play the hand based upon your read of the situation with a raise rather than a call of a $2 bet into a $13 pot3. I don't want to see the board pair or another club to hit .4. If the other player doesn't have the nut flush in this spot they are:-Drawing dead with lower flush, or close to it, might have runner runner straight flush draw. Could have overpair with flush draw that is no good (10's-Queens)-They have less than 10 outs (if they have set, nut flush draw)I really don't like they way you play it. I feel you played scared and mimimized both your potential profit and loss if they do have the nut flush, which again is a cooler, more so at HU than at 6-max or a Full ring table. They could also be raising the river because they hit a set of 8's, and based upon your actions, the other player wouldn't put you on a monster hand.

[Sefaje 0]

You needed to get some money in the pot at some point here. This is heads up play. You're giving your opponent an unbelievable amount of credit by not AT LEAST raising the river.i HATE the way you played this hand. Unless your opponent has exactly Ax of clubs, you're far far far ahead. And his line does not represent the nut flush. Why would he bet the flop and check behind on the turn? There's so many hands he could have. You've severely under-represented your hand, which is good for you considering what is happening now on the river.i can't even comment on how you should have played it. just put some freakin money in at some point.

[NEtwowilldo 0]

This is how I would have played it.Preflop: Fold. K 2 OOP??Flop: Lead into the raiser. You said he is a slow player, so I don't think you're going to get much action out of him by slowplaying yourself. Hopefully he has a big pair and he raises. Turn: Depends what happened on the turn, but as played, you gotta start inflating this pot, lead for 3/4 the pot.River: Bet, Reraise. I thought he was a slowplayer? Wouldn't he have checked the nuts on the flop if that was the case?

[Roberts2003 0]

Yeah this hand does look pretty silly to post. i think my bigger question was in general, if you have 2nd nuts and its heads up, does that ALWAYS mean you get all your chips in, no matter what. in this hand, he played this hand so much differently then any other hand that he had played. when i bet 16 on the river, and he waited, then raised me 20 more, i just had the strongest feeling that he had Ax of clubs. Are innate, psychological feelings supposed to be discarded when one has the second nuts? and i do not think i played this hand scared, 99% of the time he follows up with a bet on the turn, which i probably check raise. check raising the flop and check raising the turn really arnt that different, and i wanted to see what he would do on the turn. i do understand why people would go nuts when they see this from the outside, but i was trying to "play above the rim" haha. results are at bottom in white.Seat 1: Hero (big blind) showed [2c Kc] and lost with a flush, King high Seat 2: Deecer (small blind) showed [8c Ac] and won ($87.50) with a flush, Ace high

[litlebullet 0]

nice read what a brag post. :icon_clap:You must have made your opponent cry after he saw the hh.They say the biggest weapon people have online is your opponents betting patterns. If your so good that you could put him on the exact hand you did, shouldn't you be playing a wee bit higher there?

[danau 0]

i think my bigger question was in general, if you have 2nd nuts and its heads up, does that ALWAYS mean you get all your chips in, no matter what.

Depends what the board texture is with your "2nd nuts"If you have A3 on a KK2 3 3 board, are you going to be as comfortable moving all in compared to having your hand above? Generally HU I'm more than happy shovelling chips in with a 2card (i.e. both hole cards play) 2nd or 3rd nuts, if someone has one of the 3-4 hands that beat me, hey thats poker, you have to be prepared to gamble. Having a divine read that this guy had Axs won't always be right, and you are losing value by not betting the above hand harder

[Moneyball16 0]

To win a big pot you gotta build a big pot. Id start on the flop and wouldnt think about folding.

[David_Nicoson 1]

A villain with the nut flush stacks me every time in this scenario.With four to a flush on the board or if you were a lot deeper, I can see slowing down, but not here.

[Acid_Knight 2]

This is how I would have played it.Preflop: Fold. K 2 OOP??

This is HU. He should be playing this hand.The thing is, yeah, you got the 2nd nuts but there's no money in the pot. You NEED to build a pot. In HU, players don't need to give you credit for a flush here and you can actually get lots of action from 1 pair or 2 pair hands as long as the 4th club doesn't fall. The lesson is that you should be betting the other streets a little to get a pot going so that you can win something substantial wtih your monster hand. On the river, definitely come over top of his raise, but don't make it so big that he HAS to fold all non-flush hands. If he happened to show up with the Ax of clubs here, I wouldn't be that upset if I got stacked. These things happen. Definitely reraise the river.

[irishguy 14]

I would much rather lose my whole stack here than call the river and have him flip over anything other than the nuts. This is HU it is reasonable to think that Villain would slow play lots hands that you crush ie: Set, flush, two pair. You can't be passive and worry about the one hand that beats you.

[cMcMonkey 0]

Online, even HU playing someone for an hour or two, it is very hard to get such an exact read. First of all, people do such goofy things all the time that you can never be sure the difference in play is strength, boredom, misclick, 90210 is on and Donna martin graduates!! etc. Live I could maybe see being so confident in your read, but all you have for info online is his betting pattern and there are many reasons for that to change. Second reason is that a set (especially a big set like AA), 2 big pair, even something like 45c or 56c could play this the same exact way HU, could change the betting pattern like he did thinking he had a monster. Without a good read you can't automatically be afraid of the flush HU, and I assume he would know this and play a range of hands this way. Why do you not consider any of these as likely possibilities? To dismiss them out of hand and play the whole hand assuming Axc is very poor, IMO.There are very few exceptions to getting as much in as possible with the 2nd nuts HU. Hell, there aren't a whole lot of places you would slow down with the 2nd nuts at a full table. Its the same theory as set over set.The fact that in this particular case your narrow read was correct only reinforces the bad habit of not considering enough hands. This seems to be a problem in a couple of the hands you posted. OTOH, maybe there was enough info for your read, but even still you need to test him at some point (before the river) to verify your read, not just meekly accept it and risk leaving a lot of $$ on the table.

[litlebullet 0]

yeah be like a normal person, and go broke there like you're supposed to.

[Roberts2003 0]

Online, even HU playing someone for an hour or two, it is very hard to get such an exact read. First of all, people do such goofy things all the time that you can never be sure the difference in play is strength, boredom, misclick, 90210 is on and Donna martin graduates!! etc. Live I could maybe see being so confident in your read, but all you have for info online is his betting pattern and there are many reasons for that to change. Second reason is that a set (especially a big set like AA), 2 big pair, even something like 45c or 56c could play this the same exact way HU, could change the betting pattern like he did thinking he had a monster. Without a good read you can't automatically be afraid of the flush HU, and I assume he would know this and play a range of hands this way. Why do you not consider any of these as likely possibilities? To dismiss them out of hand and play the whole hand assuming Axc is very poor, IMO.There are very few exceptions to getting as much in as possible with the 2nd nuts HU. Hell, there aren't a whole lot of places you would slow down with the 2nd nuts at a full table. Its the same theory as set over set.The fact that in this particular case your narrow read was correct only reinforces the bad habit of not considering enough hands. This seems to be a problem in a couple of the hands you posted. OTOH, maybe there was enough info for your read, but even still you need to test him at some point (before the river) to verify your read, not just meekly accept it and risk leaving a lot of $$ on the table.

i understand what you are saying, but as far as hand ranges, logically just think about the hand for a second. who min bets the flop then checks the turn with a set or 2 pair??? that would be an absolutely horrible play, i dont think ive ever seen anyone at the 1 2 NL do that with a 3 flush on the board. also, a lower flush would have built a pot and bet more on flop and turn because his hand can easily get counterfited. the only hands that fit his line here is absolute air or the stone cold nuts in my view. keep in mind i said in an earlier post that he was a terrible, slowplay happy opponent. any good player here bets out if not the flop, then the turn hard and builds a pot. so him being a slowplay happy opponent is important background knowledge. when he raised me on the river, after betting min on flop and checking turn, i really did feel it had to be either air or the nuts, with a stronger feeling of the nuts. air isnt calling a reraise, and the nuts are stacking me, so i called. of course i beat so many hands, but just step back for a second and think about all those hands. almost every single one of them gets played differently then how it was played.

[RhinestoneCowboy 2]

The last 2 hands you have posted you called with Jack high and you called with the 2nd nuts. It seems like you have quite a bit invested into "reads" online.Great brag post.

[iowahawk09 0]

You need to bet hands like this a lot harder, but I am a firm believer in going with your instincts. If you believe for whatever reason, you are beat, then just fold or in your case call the river. It takes a lot of discipline and it sucks when you are wrong, but my instincts are usually fairly accurate. But you should be building up the pot alot more with this hand in any other scenario. I don't think I could just call the river like you, but like I said, trust your instincts.

[donk4life 34]

Online, even HU playing someone for an hour or two, it is very hard to get such an exact read. First of all, people do such goofy things all the time that you can never be sure the difference in play is strength, boredom, misclick, 90210 is on and Donna martin graduates!! etc. Live I could maybe see being so confident in your read, but all you have for info online is his betting pattern and there are many reasons for that to change. Second reason is that a set (especially a big set like AA), 2 big pair, even something like 45c or 56c could play this the same exact way HU, could change the betting pattern like he did thinking he had a monster. Without a good read you can't automatically be afraid of the flush HU, and I assume he would know this and play a range of hands this way. Why do you not consider any of these as likely possibilities? To dismiss them out of hand and play the whole hand assuming Axc is very poor, IMO.There are very few exceptions to getting as much in as possible with the 2nd nuts HU. Hell, there aren't a whole lot of places you would slow down with the 2nd nuts at a full table. Its the same theory as set over set.The fact that in this particular case your narrow read was correct only reinforces the bad habit of not considering enough hands. This seems to be a problem in a couple of the hands you posted. OTOH, maybe there was enough info for your read, but even still you need to test him at some point (before the river) to verify your read, not just meekly accept it and risk leaving a lot of $$ on the table.

Were you watching that episode or something?

[cMcMonkey 0]

i understand what you are saying, but as far as hand ranges, logically just think about the hand for a second. who min bets the flop then checks the turn with a set or 2 pair??? that would be an absolutely horrible play, i dont think ive ever seen anyone at the 1 2 NL do that with a 3 flush on the board. also, a lower flush would have built a pot and bet more on flop and turn because his hand can easily get counterfited. the only hands that fit his line here is absolute air or the stone cold nuts in my view. keep in mind i said in an earlier post that he was a terrible, slowplay happy opponent. any good player here bets out if not the flop, then the turn hard and builds a pot. so him being a slowplay happy opponent is important background knowledge. when he raised me on the river, after betting min on flop and checking turn, i really did feel it had to be either air or the nuts, with a stronger feeling of the nuts. air isnt calling a reraise, and the nuts are stacking me, so i called. of course i beat so many hands, but just step back for a second and think about all those hands. almost every single one of them gets played differently then how it was played.

A full game I might agree, but HU play deviates from "logical" way too often to use that as your sole argument for narrowing your read so much. I'm not even saying I disagree with a read of Axc being the *most likely* hand by the river, but the main point is that its not the ONLY possible hand; to play every street as if it is completely ignores many other feasible possibilities. Having not been in the HU match with you, I can't say what those other possibilities are, but I know the range is always going to be greater than Axc unless you see his hole cards by mistake.

[NEtwowilldo 0]

This is HU. He should be playing this hand.

Woops missed that part. Yes then play it. My B.That makes this call even easier.

[danau 0]

i understand what you are saying, but as far as hand ranges, logically just think about the hand for a second. who min bets the flop then checks the turn with a set or 2 pair???

you seriously would check behind on the turn with the nut flush? he played this hand badly, and nothing about his betting pattern screams nut flush.. im still curious as to how you arrived at that conclusion

[Roberts2003 0]

you seriously would check behind on the turn with the nut flush? he played this hand badly, and nothing about his betting pattern screams nut flush.. im still curious as to how you arrived at that conclusion

i wouldnt....but a slowplay happy opponent would, which he was and which i thought he was even before the hand happened.

[danau 0]

i seriously think you are investing FAR too much in your "reads" (which as far as i can tell are based on your feelings , not betting patterns) to be not shoveling money in here with the 2nd nuts.

[trystero 0]

The last 2 hands you have posted you called with Jack high and you called with the 2nd nuts. It seems like you have quite a bit invested into "reads" online.Great brag post.

yeah, that's all it is. OP butchers a hand by just about every poker standard and yet comes out ahead because of his amazing reads. There's no strategic worth in any of these hands.

[Sefaje 0]

even if your magic read of his having a monster is correct, you're losing a HUGE amount of value the times he has a lower flush. you're acting like he knows you have the king flush. jsut because he isnt shoving all in by the turn, doesn't mean he will never think he has the best hand without the absolute nuts.you played this hand like you had second pair or at best bottom two. If I were villain i'd be trying to extract value from you with a very, very wide range of hands and be gleeful when you showed K2c. And mystified / assume misclick the 1.4% of the time I had you beatseriously, if you ONLY count the possible holdings of 2 clubs in his hand, you're very very very much crushing him.

[mtdesmoines 3]

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (2 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)Hero ($219.75)Button ($288.90)Preflop: Hero is BB with 2, K. Button raises to $6, Hero calls $4.Flop: ($13) 3, 7, T(2 players)Hero checks, Button bets $2, Hero calls $2.Turn: ($17) A(2 players)Hero checks, Button checks.River: ($17) 8(2 players)Hero bets $16, Button raises to $36, Hero calls $20.Final Pot: $89this guy i was playing was unusually bad. normally at the 1 2 NL heads up level, most people are either at least decent, or overlyaggressive. and overlyaggressive is better then being passive/slowplay happy in heads up. in this hand, when i got raised on the river, i so strongly felt that he had Ax of clubs that i just called river. clearly when you have 2nd nuts, you should almost always get your chips into the middle, but i did not feel it this time. does anyone agree that at times, you should use caution, or should you just always blindly get all your chips in.

I can't decide who's worse at poker ... you or the villain.