$10,000 for kk?

[Mr Monkey 0]

The only hand i would not fold preflop in that situation is AA. I would fold KK.

[jgarza 0]

WSOP starts 25-50 blinds and 10,000 chips. If you made any reasonable raise, to like 250 at the most (although over 200 seems steep), for someone to put you all in they would be raising well over 9,000 chips. Calling is essentially completely insane, but so is the huge reraise.

[Tritz 0]

Here is the secenario...  you are an amateur player with a fairly small BR..you finally got the courage to put up a hard earned $10k for the main event, and you get delt your first hand of the trny.you raise a healthy raise with KK and get put All-in by the next seat table folds to you... do you call your all in, first hand, first main event, first 10k buy in...that you paid for (no satellite)??are you willing to bet 10k, KK will win?what about QQ?

I haven't been put in this situation yet. But Sklansky talks about it fairly often in his books, saying that the player who moves all in has Aces. I'm assuming that's where you got the idea for this post.

I am completly unfamiliar with Sklansly's work....

[Kadomang 0]

I don't see how most of you can say you wouldn't call. If he had aces why would he raise all in he knows he's leading and can get more than 200 chips you raised he is obviously very loose player if he goes all in on the first hand. If he re-raised to 1000-2000 chances are he is going to get the same result everyone folding but you would probably call in that situation.It's not like he is trying to build a table character or anything so he can change it up because he is risking busting on the first hand I would put him on T's J's or Q's (he probably has you on AK).I'm betting on him expecting someone like a lot of you guys not willing to risk it first hand in the tourney pre-flop and he just wants an early steal to get him started. If he has a mid to high pocket pair he probably thinks he is leading if he does get called and that 90-95% of people wouldn't risk it first hand it's preety strong move but worth calling for you.If he shows aces or out draws you then it sucks you lost but if your entering a NL tourney with 5000 people(WSOP is the venue I'm assuming) you have to realize you may not finish in the money and will need to take risks to have a chance. Plus winning the hand or especially out drawing aces would be sweet cause I would want to slap someone in the face who went all in pre-flop first hand in a 10,000$ tourney and that would be perfect slap, and the 2-1 chip lead on everyone elses stack means you can loosen up and probably clean up on the first day(all the dead money) springboarding your chances.All that said I call with KK I would think a long time on Q's (that would just be a gut feeling at the time type thing have to study the better a bit see if i can get him to answer some questions or get a tell)Sorry for the long post but I put a lot thought into it and I think you'd have to make this decsion.edit: Think more on Q's only cause of the increase in chance he has K's or AK.

[bmcarter 0]

By the way I never once said I would fold Aces, I said I would think long and hard. That doesn't matter anyway because I would never put myself into a situation where I would buy in to a tournament that I really couldn't afford. In the games I play, I would NEVER fold Aces before the flop. And I never said I would fold Aces in this scenerio, I said I would "think long and hard." Settle down buddy.

[iveyfan30 0]

theirs an old saying about scarid money not winning....i have kk...i make the call...if hes got aa then hes got aa...im not gonna play like a school girl at an r kelly concert...

[mk 11]

Such an easy fold. Sklansky's right saying this player definitely has aces. Would you slowplay aces on the first hand if someone was playing back at you? Absolutely not. T.J. also says there is only one hand you get all your chips in the middle with during the first levels of a tournament: AA. Not KK.

[Abbaddabba 0]

I don't see how most of you can say you wouldn't call. If he had aces why would he raise all in he knows he's leading and can get more than 200 chips you raised he is obviously very loose player if he goes all in on the first hand.

Why? Because there are people out there who think like you.There's overbetting the pot... and then there's going all in for 40 times the pot. If only one person at the table uses your rationale to call with kings or queens, it is worth while to push. Betting in a rational way results in a very good chance that he will win another thousand. Going all in potentially wins him 10,000. All it takes is 1 in 10 individuals to think like you, roughly.From the perspective of someone with queens, let's say, it is irrational to push. In fact, it's almost better to push with suited connectors in a tournament of this magnitude, though also a poor play. The only callers will have queens beat (and suited connetors are better at taking down over pockets than are underpockets). To take down a pot of 250, you're putting 10,000 on the line. You would have to put the probability of him holding aces (where he will call virtually every time, and it's assumed kings will only call a fraction of the time... less than kings will never call for simplicity sake) at a level low enough to justify the incredibly low EV you will have on the rare occasion that he does have aces, or has kings and calls. Since this is the first hand and no one has a read on you, and the only callers will have overpockets, suited connectors are actually preferable to push with given that they have a higher EV to any potential callers. Even still, that EV is still well below zero.

[Abbaddabba 0]

By the way I never once said I would fold Aces, I said I would think long and hard. That doesn't matter anyway because I would never put myself into a situation where I would buy in to a tournament that I really couldn't afford. In the games I play, I would NEVER fold Aces before the flop. And I never said I would fold Aces in this scenerio, I said I would "think long and hard." Settle down buddy.

When you say that you would think long and hard, it implies that folding is a possibility in your mind. When you post an article by a pro advocating folding aces preflop in a given situation, it implies that there's some connecting principle relevent to your "thinking long and hard". There isn't.There is nothing to think about, within the context of that particular hand. You know you're in a tournament where the average players skill level likely exceeds your own, with no option to refund your buy in. You know that you're far away from the payout bubble. Certainly nothing that ought to take a long or hard time to think about.

[sanemancrazywrld 0]

I don't see how most of  you can say you wouldn't call.  If he had aces why would he raise all in he knows he's leading and can get more than 200 chips you raised he is obviously very loose player if he goes all in on the first hand.   .

Why would he reraise all in with aces? Because many players think "why would he reraise all in with aces?", and call off with some cheese like KK or QQ or AK. Many, many, many players have been bust out with the old "why would he jam with the nuts?" thought. The answer being, because he thought you might just call.

[Emptyeye 0]

Yeah, as I've said before, the answer to the "Who the hell pushes, hugely overbetting the pot, with aces?!" question is "Someone who knows you'll look at the move and think 'Who the hell pushes, hugely overbetting the pot, with aces?!'" I'm going to think outside the box entirely here and state that the correct answer is not to put yourself in this situation in the first place by putting up a "hard-earned" 10K for the main event. Indeed, in the hypothetical situation (Where it's presumed I've had to work long and hard scraping together this 10K, and thus will probably not get another shot at the main event), I might fold aces if there are enough opponents in the pot where it's more likely I'll lose than win (This is NOT the mathematically correct decision, but remember, this is likely my one and only shot at the ME).But back to the situation presented here. I'd probably start talking him up to see if I can discern some information about his hand--as I said in the first paragraph (And as others have said), it's quite possible he has aces. It's also quite possible he's making a move with something like kings, queens, jacks, AK, AQ, etc. etc. etc, or even a stone bluff if he's feeling frisky. I have to try and figure that out, and I'm going to do whatever I can to do so.Note that given a proper BR to be playing the main event, I'll end up making this call more often than not. We don't have that in this situation though.

[Dane 0]

Why would you lay down the aces? Would you call if it was the second hand, or if another guy have allready exited the tournament? You have the best hand CALL

[semaj550 0]

If I'm holding ANYTHING other than AA or KK in this situation I muck. If I'm holding AA or KK all my chips are going into the pot. Yes, I may be risking my tournament by being up against AA or A/anything with my KK but a) I don't think he has AA. I've never played a $10k buy-in event but I doubt most people who do are dumb enough to move all in with AA to pick up just over 300 chips. and B) The table is going to learn that when I raise to 4x (or 5x, or whatever my PF raise was) I'm going to back it up. They're going to see that they'd better have AA to make a move on me or they're gambling their tournament to make a play like that on me.

[Abbaddabba 0]

The primary reasons why bankroll management is held to be important isto avoid going broke from fluctuations, with the implicit assumption that you're otherwise beating the game to a degree great enough to overcome the rake in the long run. In the long run, with an infinite sample size, the final payout would presumably be all the pro's (assuming they are the best players, which seems reasonable). An above average player, with a high enough sample of hands (analogous to low blind to stack ratio, which is the case in the WSOP) would not get paid. To even suggest that any of us would be an above average player in the WSOP is stretching it, if not outright absurd.

[Emptyeye 0]

Why would you lay down the aces? Would you call if it was the second hand, or if another guy have allready exited the tournament? You have the best hand CALL

I presume you're talking to me.The situation mentioned where I would fold the aces is similar (Though not identical) to this one--basically, it presumes that again, I've had to work a long time to come up with 10K, so I'm probably not getting another shot at this. It also presumes that ALL NINE OPPONENTS are all-in ahead of me. Aces are only a 20% favorite to hold up against nine opponents. Now, over the long term, this is a profitable call (Twice out of 10 times I win 10 times my investment). The problem is, I don't have time under the scenario for the long-term to play itself out--I get this one shot, and ONLY this one shot, at the Main Event, and over the short-term, I have an 80% chance of going home on this hand if I call. That's that in a nutshell.

[justblaze 0]

you dont go broke on the first hand of any 10k tourney with anything but AA

what about a 9k tourney? 8k? 5k? the point im making is the buyin is irrelevant. people are so fixated on the amount. Optimal strategy does not vary with the buyin amount. And you do not fold aces preflop in any sort of non-satellite tournament situation. ever. there is no mathematical justification for it.

[Emptyeye 0]

you dont go broke on the first hand of any 10k tourney with anything but AA

what about a 9k tourney? 8k? 5k? the point im making is the buyin is irrelevant. people are so fixated on the amount. Optimal strategy does not vary with the buyin amount. And you do not fold aces preflop in any sort of non-satellite tournament situation. ever. there is no mathematical justification for it.

Despite what I wrote above, I basically agree with this, presuming you have the bankroll to be playing in an $X-buyin event in the first place. One of the factors of both the situation presented above and the one I brought up, though, is that for all intents and purposes, you don't. (Which, again, makes the truly correct answer "Don't put yourself in this situation in the first place")Like I said above, over the long-term, folding aces preflop is never a correct play, and given I could afford enough 10K events that the 10K doesn't mean much to me, I'll make the call. If I only get one chance at it, though (As in this hypothetical situation--again, in the real world, I'll make sure I don't put myself in such a situation), I may very well fold any hand (Including aces) and wait until I'll be an 80% favorite to stay alive.

[elkang 0]

there are other factors besides the math. otherwise, we'd all be posting on Sklansky's forum intead of FCP... just kidding.I am slightly at a loss at to what to do - there are so many factors - but most of all the entire situation seems so stupid. But, I think it's clear that you fold KK. You just don't have good odds to risk it, no read and it is not a rebuy tourney - those are the primary factors.Not the buy-in amount (whether it is $10K or $200) or the fact that it is the first hand. If anything the $10K and 1st hand make me more likely to call - if only to get on ESPN as the 1st loser.

[Dane 0]

Why would you lay down the aces? Would you call if it was the second hand, or if another guy have allready exited the tournament? You have the best hand CALL

It also presumes that ALL NINE OPPONENTS are all-in ahead of me.

I missed that part, if all nine are allin, sure you want to fold, but if its only one person you are up against you should call.

[JimmyWellington 1]

I said I would think long and hard about calling with Aces in this scenerio.  Folding pocket Aces before the flop in certain situations isn't stupid.   Remember that the question said that you had a small bankroll and you were putting up a hardearned $10,000.  I personally would not put myself in this situation, I was just answering Tritz's question.http://www.cardplayer.com/poker_magazine/archives/showarticle.php?a_id=14576

This isn't one of those "think about folding AA". If you're thinking of doing anything but calling with AA in this situation, you shouldn't be even playing the tournament. With KK or QQ, I fold. I would probably try to get him to show his hand, of course I wouldn't expect that.

[IphuQ2 0]

Here is the situation, a big tourney like this you are not paid for sitting there through the first day, and I assume that if you are ready to put up 10k you are ready to lose it. I think there are 4 things to think about in this situation first: more likely than not at some point in this tourney you are going to be put to a decision for all of your chips and probably wont have as good of a hand as KK. Second: Not many players put all of their money in with aces after a big raise, a lot of players slow play them, and those who don't are still usually looking for a AK call or a lower pocket pair so they will usually just double the original raise. Third: if there are 9 other players at your tables there is a 1 in 24.44 chance that he has aces, and if he does you are still not dead, but with any other hand you are in a good situation. Fourth: you are not going to be paid unless you go deep in this tourney. QQ you are probably looking at a race

[Tritz 0]

Such an easy fold. Sklansky's right saying this player definitely has aces. Would you slowplay aces on the first hand if someone was playing back at you? Absolutely not. T.J. also says there is only one hand you get all your chips in the middle with during the first levels of a tournament: AA. Not KK.

no way does he have aces.... chances of that on the first hand in this situation is 0.8%and yes that is accurate i checked.

[Tritz 0]

Even though it is possible, it is still extremely unlikely and I will bet you 10,000 right now, you will not turn over AA.

[BETNFOOL 0]

Here is the secenario... you are an amateur player with a fairly small BR..you finally got the courage to put up a hard earned $10k for the main event, and you get delt your first hand of the trny.you raise a healthy raise with KK and get put All-in by the next seat table folds to you... do you call your all in, first hand, first main event, first 10k buy in...that you paid for (no satellite)??are you willing to bet 10k, KK will win?what about QQ?

i would fold my hand face up and say to the guy, who in my mind does'nt know how to play very well, good raise and bust him out of the tourny later when you have the nuts and he's still play'n like a fish

[wrto4556 0]

I call. Bust the dude right there and start running over the table with my T20,000 chips.