Question For The Players 18-26 Years Old

[OrzyVibe 0]

I'm ancient compared to 95% of you (I'm guessing)....just turned 40. I really just started playing a few years ago and its strictly a hobby for me. I love playing but I have no aspirations of TP/MM or anything like that. I have a successful career and so does my wife. I dabble online and monthly in a neighborhood cash game....and get to the casino for $1/$2 NLHE maybe once every 3-4 months. I would guess I'm average to below average as a poker player.Anyway, enough prefacing..here's my question/statement: What kind of life do you younger guys have playing so much online poker? Where is the social interaction? The job skill development? I'm not judging...at least I'm trying not to. And this is a poker forum. But I'm very concerned that many of you are wasting your prime developmental years, not only socially but economically, by basically isolating yourselves in front of a computer screen, trying to make a living playing poker. I understand the thought that you are 'chasing a dream'...I get that. But you guys are SO young, its easy to lose perspective. The concern is you'll look in the mirror on your 30th birthday and realize you just pissed away your 20s doing something that doesn't translate into the 'real' world....and you won't be a 'pro'...and you'll still be living in your parent's basement. That's just my opinion...I'm sure it will go over like a red-hot poker up one's arse. And I'm not trying to piss in anyone's cornflakes. But its a legitimate concern of mine as I read the various forums and poker blogs. Just think about it. Good luck.

[IQCrash 1]

I'm ancient compared to 95% of you (I'm guessing)....just turned 40. I really just started playing a few years ago and its strictly a hobby for me. I love playing but I have no aspirations of TP/MM or anything like that. I have a successful career and so does my wife. I dabble online and monthly in a neighborhood cash game....and get to the casino for $1/$2 NLHE maybe once every 3-4 months. I would guess I'm average to below average as a poker player.Anyway, enough prefacing..here's my question/statement: What kind of life do you younger guys have playing so much online poker? Where is the social interaction? The job skill development? I'm not judging...at least I'm trying not to. And this is a poker forum. But I'm very concerned that many of you are wasting your prime developmental years, not only socially but economically, by basically isolating yourselves in front of a computer screen, trying to make a living playing poker. I understand the thought that you are 'chasing a dream'...I get that. But you guys are SO young, its easy to lose perspective. The concern is you'll look in the mirror on your 30th birthday and realize you just pissed away your 20s doing something that doesn't translate into the 'real' world....and you won't be a 'pro'...and you'll still be living in your parent's basement. That's just my opinion...I'm sure it will go over like a red-hot poker up one's arse. And I'm not trying to piss in anyone's cornflakes. But its a legitimate concern of mine as I read the various forums and poker blogs. Just think about it. Good luck.

Yeah. You're not gonna get flamed.

[chgocubs99 0]

I think it actually brings up a ton of really good points. Looking forward to seeing the responses...

[MyPlayIsRAB 0]

yeah he does bring forth a lot of good points. i think most have merit, but he is missing one critical aspect of this debate. many of the disciplined online pros play set hours everyday, and many treat it as a 9-5 job. in this case, social interaction can easily be not avoided/altered in any way.think of it this way:Average Worker ScheduleWake up 730Get ready for work 730-830commute to work 830-9work 9-5tired after work 5-7go out with friends a few days a week 7-11sleep 11-730Pro Online Poker Player ScheduleWake up 730Eat, shower/etc 730-9play poker 9-12nap 12-1play poker 1-5eat supper 5-6free to do whatever you want 6-11its basically the same.. its all just how you manage your time. the players that are playing 16hrs/day or only waking up at 5pm, yeah, they might be ruining chances at social interaction. but with discipline it can be just like a regular job. as you said, the only real problem can translate into not having usable work skills. on the other hand, many players who are now professionals went to college and have degrees in business, history, education, etc and would be marketable up to a certain pointpatrick

[zedd2005 0]

lol.that is all.

[Bubba83 0]

I am a 23 year old part-time player who just looks at poker as a way to supplement my income. I used to have aspirations to become a well known professional and go on the tour, but I don't anymore. I play at most 20 hours a week, and I attend college to obtain my web programming degree full-time.I also think it is a good point. It's not like you can really develop into a well known pro from being a good internet player and then move over to live tournaments on TV anymore. The public recognizes certain faces as "the pros" now and they don't really want to have to remember too many people as "pros". I mean, I guess if you went on a sick TV tourney run it would still be possible... But look at guys like ZeeJustin and Jeff Madsen, I highly doubt anyone that watches poker casually on TV has even heard of them, yet they can recite names like Hellmuth/Lederer/Negreanu/Ivey."The Dream" of starting out online and making it up and over to doing well in live events and becoming a well known pro really isn't as accomplishable as a few years ago. Yes, we have people on this forum like PrtyPsux and others who became great tourney players online and are just now trying to become live tourney players. If you read JC's really long blog post, it will tell you how tough it has been to stay out of the red whilst flying all over the world playing in these things. I'm sure the 18-26 year old pros can argue that they get plenty of social interaction from talking to people using this forum. While I agree forums and making friends on here is some kind of social interaction, I don't think it's nearly as good as real life interaction. In life, you have to learn to talk to people on the fly, you can't sit here and think about how you want to be perceived, use the backspace key etc, proofread your statements before you submit them.Anyway that's all I have for now... nice serious topic for once.

[Bubba83 0]

yeah he does bring forth a lot of good points. i think most have merit, but he is missing one critical aspect of this debate. many of the disciplined online pros play set hours everyday, and many treat it as a 9-5 job. in this case, social interaction can easily be not avoided/altered in any way.

I think this depends a lot on if your friends from growing up all stuck around in the area you live in when you play or not. If you're like me, they all went to different colleges and some of them stayed where they went to college. Most people this happens to are forced to make new friends via their job to continue with the social interaction. I think there are only going to be about 3 friends back home for me personally out of 15ish when I move back home after this semester at college.

[TheCinciKid 0]

yeah he does bring forth a lot of good points. i think most have merit, but he is missing one critical aspect of this debate. many of the disciplined online pros play set hours everyday, and many treat it as a 9-5 job. in this case, social interaction can easily be not avoided/altered in any way.think of it this way:Average Worker ScheduleWake up 730Get ready for work 730-830commute to work 830-9work 9-5tired after work 5-7go out with friends a few days a week 7-11sleep 11-730Pro Online Poker Player ScheduleWake up 730Eat, shower/etc 730-9play poker 9-12nap 12-1play poker 1-5eat supper 5-6free to do whatever you want 6-11its basically the same.. its all just how you manage your time. the players that are playing 16hrs/day or only waking up at 5pm, yeah, they might be ruining chances at social interaction. but with discipline it can be just like a regular job. as you said, the only real problem can translate into not having usable work skills. on the other hand, many players who are now professionals went to college and have degrees in business, history, education, etc and would be marketable up to a certain pointpatrick

There's only one problem with all of this. Well, two really. 1) At the vast majority of jobs, you interact with your co-workers and sometimes customers on some level. This varies a ton based on the job, but it's a legitimate point and concern and I think it's the main thing that the OP is thinking of when he talks about social interaction. You don't get that playing online poker. 2) Most people who choose to play poker do it because they can set their own hours and I'm pretty sure that almost none of them are morning people who want to get up in the early morning and start playing. 99% of the time, if you find a poker player playing in the early morning it's because they've been playing all night. Furthermore, early morning hours are not really high traffic or a good time to play. The best time to play is really in the the evening, probably about 5-11 EST or so. I know this because I'm usually up early in the morning after getting off work at my 3rd shift job and there are virtually no tables running.

[Eric Smith 0]

I'm ancient compared to 95% of you (I'm guessing)....just turned 40. I really just started playing a few years ago and its strictly a hobby for me. I love playing but I have no aspirations of TP/MM or anything like that. I have a successful career and so does my wife. I dabble online and monthly in a neighborhood cash game....and get to the casino for $1/$2 NLHE maybe once every 3-4 months. I would guess I'm average to below average as a poker player.Anyway, enough prefacing..here's my question/statement: What kind of life do you younger guys have playing so much online poker? Where is the social interaction? The job skill development? I'm not judging...at least I'm trying not to. And this is a poker forum. But I'm very concerned that many of you are wasting your prime developmental years, not only socially but economically, by basically isolating yourselves in front of a computer screen, trying to make a living playing poker. I understand the thought that you are 'chasing a dream'...I get that. But you guys are SO young, its easy to lose perspective. The concern is you'll look in the mirror on your 30th birthday and realize you just pissed away your 20s doing something that doesn't translate into the 'real' world....and you won't be a 'pro'...and you'll still be living in your parent's basement. That's just my opinion...I'm sure it will go over like a red-hot poker up one's arse. And I'm not trying to piss in anyone's cornflakes. But its a legitimate concern of mine as I read the various forums and poker blogs. Just think about it. Good luck.

I think sebok said it the best...Imagine that you searched your entire life for something that you could pour yourself into. Something that could meet your need to be continually challenged on all levels of your cerebral, intellectual, and psychological existence. It would have to be an activity that regardless of how much you labored at it, you could never completely master it, perhaps completely regardless of the amount of effort put in. Somehow it would always find a way to throw you a curve, or to spin something new your way, thus supplying continual, sometimes maddening, levels of thinking and re-thinking.It would have to be an activity with so many different angles and views that there would always be a counter-punch to every counter-punch, and always be a contradictory argument supplied to every initial thought.

[MyPlayIsRAB 0]

There's only one problem with all of this. Well, two really. 1) At the vast majority of jobs, you interact with your co-workers and sometimes customers on some level. This varies a ton based on the job, but it's a legitimate point and concern and I think it's the main thing that the OP is thinking of when he talks about social interaction. You don't get that playing online poker. 2) Most people who choose to play poker do it because they can set their own hours and I'm pretty sure that almost none of them are morning people who want to get up in the early morning and start playing. 99% of the time, if you find a poker player playing in the early morning it's because they've been playing all night. Furthermore, early morning hours are not really high traffic or a good time to play. The best time to play is really in the the evening, probably about 5-11 EST or so. I know this because I'm usually up early in the morning after getting off work at my 3rd shift job and there are virtually no tables running.

while this is true, i was just trying to give an example. i know for one rizen has said that he plays a 9-5 schedule to be with his family, and i think bax does so to some extent as well. as for interacting with others, you are totally correct there. without a good friend base to start with before poker, and keeping up your friendships, you might end up losing them. on the other side, you still ahve plenty of time to interact with others when youre not playing; youre just missing out on interacting with co-workers.

[OrzyVibe 0]

I think sebok said it the best...Imagine that you searched your entire life for something that you could pour yourself into. Something that could meet your need to be continually challenged on all levels of your cerebral, intellectual, and psychological existence. It would have to be an activity that regardless of how much you labored at it, you could never completely master it, perhaps completely regardless of the amount of effort put in. Somehow it would always find a way to throw you a curve, or to spin something new your way, thus supplying continual, sometimes maddening, levels of thinking and re-thinking.It would have to be an activity with so many different angles and views that there would always be a counter-punch to every counter-punch, and always be a contradictory argument supplied to every initial thought.

That is a rationalization, in my humble opinion. When I started this thread, I didn't expect many to agree. The bottom line: its still gambling. People that enjoy an activity will use the same process to rationalize it as the quote from Sebock. I respect anyone's counter viewpoint. I'm not trying to change the world. The Internet has changed many things on many levels. Moderation is the key to life....everything in moderation.

[fitzinabox 0]

I prefer playing in the mornings like i am right now at 7:41 partly because i can't sleep the other reason being all the donks overseas are playing at this time. The original post is a good one because sometimes i can see myself falling into that category, when that happens i usually take a break for a while.

[cu in 4years Dan 1]

I am a 23 year old part-time player who just looks at poker as a way to supplement my income. I used to have aspirations to become a well known professional and go on the tour, but I don't anymore. I play at most 20 hours a week, and I attend college to obtain my web programming degree full-time.I also think it is a good point. It's not like you can really develop into a well known pro from being a good internet player and then move over to live tournaments on TV anymore. The public recognizes certain faces as "the pros" now and they don't really want to have to remember too many people as "pros". I mean, I guess if you went on a sick TV tourney run it would still be possible... But look at guys like ZeeJustin and Jeff Madsen, I highly doubt anyone that watches poker casually on TV has even heard of them, yet they can recite names like Hellmuth/Lederer/Negreanu/Ivey."The Dream" of starting out online and making it up and over to doing well in live events and becoming a well known pro really isn't as accomplishable as a few years ago. Yes, we have people on this forum like PrtyPsux and others who became great tourney players online and are just now trying to become live tourney players. If you read JC's really long blog post, it will tell you how tough it has been to stay out of the red whilst flying all over the world playing in these things. I'm sure the 18-26 year old pros can argue that they get plenty of social interaction from talking to people using this forum. While I agree forums and making friends on here is some kind of social interaction, I don't think it's nearly as good as real life interaction. In life, you have to learn to talk to people on the fly, you can't sit here and think about how you want to be perceived, use the backspace key etc, proofread your statements before you submit them.Anyway that's all I have for now... nice serious topic for once.

interesting post, but i don't think you are 100% correct.the reason why people like dn are well known is because they are very chatty. they talk a lot and people really like themits all public image and the way that you show yourself to the camera's. show yourself as a chatty, nice, well grounded guy and the cameras will follow you and get you well known.

[TheCinciKid 0]

That is a rationalization, in my humble opinion. When I started this thread, I didn't expect many to agree. The bottom line: its still gambling. People that enjoy an activity will use the same process to rationalize it as the quote from Sebock. I respect anyone's counter viewpoint. I'm not trying to change the world. The Internet has changed many things on many levels. Moderation is the key to life....everything in moderation.

Yes, it is gambling. But, it's different from many forms of gambling. It's a skill game, it's something that you can never fully master. I know personally it appeals to my need to constantly be occupying my mind, to challenge myself. Now, I'm not a pro and probably never will be, but I don't think there's anything wrong with playing professionally if you can find a way to balance yourself while doing it. I guess what I really object to is the use of the phrase "it's still gambling." It is, but the word gambling has a bad connotation. While poker is gambling, for a good player who really learns the game and gets good at it, it's gambling as the house. It's not something that will inevitably break you if you continue to do it like most forms of gambling. That said, it of course will inevitably break you if you suck and make no effort to get better/manage your bankroll, etc.

[Bubba83 0]

I think sebok said it the best...Imagine that you searched your entire life for something that you could pour yourself into. Something that could meet your need to be continually challenged on all levels of your cerebral, intellectual, and psychological existence. It would have to be an activity that regardless of how much you labored at it, you could never completely master it, perhaps completely regardless of the amount of effort put in. Somehow it would always find a way to throw you a curve, or to spin something new your way, thus supplying continual, sometimes maddening, levels of thinking and re-thinking.It would have to be an activity with so many different angles and views that there would always be a counter-punch to every counter-punch, and always be a contradictory argument supplied to every initial thought.

There's no doubt that poker is this game, and can stimulate the mind to a very high degree and be satisfying in that way. However, that's not really what this thread is about... It's about social interaction.

[Bubba83 0]

interesting post, but i don't think you are 100% correct.the reason why people like dn are well known is because they are very chatty. they talk a lot and people really like themits all public image and the way that you show yourself to the camera's. show yourself as a chatty, nice, well grounded guy and the cameras will follow you and get you well known.

While I agree that you also have to fit those qualifications of having that public image persona, I still think timing had a LOT to do with DN's success in the public eye. Let's face it, he went hot in 2004 which was the year right after Moneymaker won the main event and the average person in the USA started to want to become familiarized with knowing who the "poker pros" are.

[Eric Smith 0]

Moderation is the key to life....everything in moderation.

Well i agree. Not so much that poker should only be a side job or a hobby, but that you should keep more important things true to you. Berry Greenstein's book Ace On The River gave me a good insight on how to approch the lifestyle. I'm a big fan of that man and his offspring lol

[crazyplaya6 0]

Id like to point out that some people, because of their circumstances, are "forced" into playing poker for a living because there is no other alternative available, or the alternatives available are not all that attractive. This has happened to me. I am a 19 year old online player who plays because I got laid off from the job I had for three years that paid for university. So now, I go to school, play poker, and spend time with my friends and my girlfriend. In no way do I feel socially deprived. I could work for 7 bucks an hour for an azzhole boss, or I can make upwards of 25-30 playing by my own schedule and in my own comfortable environment, with the freedom to go out and do what I want when I want. I might play my 6-10 hours a day, but I do it when I feel like it, and I do it when there is nothing going on socially. Sure I have dreams of making lots of money, who doesn't? But I don't let it interfere with my steady money making. I don't plan on being a pro poker player or any of that, thats why im in university, but right at this moment, playing poker for a living is ideal for my particular situation, as im sure its ideal for others. I can understand how a 40 year old guy doesn't "get it", because, no offense intended to the OP, but you're on the outside looking in on the lifestyle. Once you are actually waist deep in the world of "pro" poker playing, you develop a greater respect and admiration for the age where online poker is an option as a way to "pay the bills" so to speak. So to answer the OP's question, no I don't feel that I personally miss out on anything socially, contrary to your belief I actually get to socailize more often because of poker. Do I think some people go overboard and lock themselves in their rooms for 12 hours a day playing poker? Absolutely. Do I think this represents the majority of online grinders? Absolutely not. There is no label that you can apply across the board for every single person who plays online poker for their sole income, its better just to say "to each his (or her) own."

[Abbaddabba 0]

There're a lot of delusional retards on this forum. But when it's said and done, one's chances at succeeding at poker are usually about proportionate to your shot at making it in the real world. So it's lucky for those of us that are capable that it tends to be the dregs of society who are attracted to poker or gambling in general.For those of us who can, poker affords us a lifestyle that would otherwise be unheard of.For those who cant, usually it becomes an endl4less cycle of lies, tears and delusional fantasies.

[Eric Smith 0]

For those who cant, usually it becomes an endl4less cycle of lies, tears and delusional fantasies.

[no not baxter 0]

I guess I suck at life. Damn, OP, thanks for making me feel like an idiot.

[Shizzmoney 0]

Moderation is the key to life....everything in moderation.

Does this include casting judgement in what others do?I understand your points and reasons (and I do agree with you that poker is still gambling, Sklansky and Miller have said so themselves in their prospective books), but you know what? Who cares? I say if people want to live their lives in a certain way, so be it. If some 21 year old kid wants to sit in front of a computer 12-16 hours a day chasing flush draws and gutshot straights at 4 10-20 Limit tables at the same time, than good luck to him. I think this sums it up best:

So to answer the OP's question, no I don't feel that I personally miss out on anything socially, contrary to your belief I actually get to socailize more often because of poker. Do I think some people go overboard and lock themselves in their rooms for 12 hours a day playing poker? Absolutely. Do I think this represents the majority of online grinders? Absolutely not. There is no label that you can apply across the board for every single person who plays online poker for their sole income, its better just to say "to each his (or her) own."

I have a job and play poker as a part time job (live and online) to supplement income as well and I've just started to build a nice roll. By no means am I ready to go all the way with it yet but it is a goal of mine to be able to someday, although I understand the variance of the money flow within the profession from the stories I've heard from people I play with that DO play poker for a living. But I also realize that I someday would love to be my own boss and not have to wake up Mon-Fri and wear a monkey suit; but in a sense, I think for those who do play poker for a living online CAN make the most out of their younger years because of the fact they set their own schedule - you arn't binded to coming into work everyday. You can travel (and work if you play the poker circut) and do things that might not be available to you if you had the "ball and chain" of your job at your ankles always driving you back. Although that ball and chain provides stable security (and health insurance).I do understand it's a hard way to make an easy living and can be a grueling process to finally become comfortable in making it work. Everyone has their own goals and standards for success. Some like to play poker for entertainment and fun. Some for income. Others for competition. And I think the successful poker players out there balance all of these reasons and that is how they make a living out of it.

[Dratj 0]

I'd really like to hear from BKice, PrtyPSux, PMJackson and Hoosier. Everybody else's comments are probably just speculation.

[Governator 54]

You have to enjoy what you do in life in order to have a successful career. For some it's the joy of writing for magazines for others it's hammering numbers in accounting. Poker has a similar effect on many people... they enjoy the game and that's what makes it their career.Many jobs available today are driven behind a computer, not just the online gambling industry. I'm a web developer and sit infront of 3 monitors 10 hours a day and bring a laptop to and from the office for flexibility. I've done it for 3 years and I'm not quitting today or tomorrow to improve my social development. All points are valid from the OP, however if you don't truely enjoy what you do in life you may never find happiness at work.

[Bubba83 0]

I'd really like to hear from BKice, PrtyPSux, PMJackson and Hoosier. Everybody else's comments are probably just speculation.

Plenty of good internet cash game players out there that make a living too, just much harder to gauge who they are and if they are lying about being profitable or not.