No Limit Full Time

[Vegas King 0]

I just do not know how some of you play no limit full time for a living. It is just a sick and stressful game. I am sure the money can be outstanding at times, but the swings are just too much for me.Playing 30-60 to 40-80 limit holdem and stud, I feel like I am in control of the situation. I buying in for a couple of racks, make sure I never am short stacked and aggressively try to control the table. The swings are generally never more than $5,000 either way and I have a sufficient bankroll where I can deal with those type of swings. Putting in an 8-10 hours session is a pleasure and the mood at the table is usually quite social and pleasant.In contrast, I sat in on a 5-10 NL game twice recently, and the table was a much younger crowd. Taunting and talking smack was the norm. Players would come and go quickly as their money could vanish in a blink of an eye. Everyone seemed on edge and the stress level was not good. Most pots were raised from $30-$50 pre flop and 1/2 of those were rereaised to over $100. It was nearly impossible to play suited connectors or small pairs for any value as you could go broke just trying to hit something. The mentality seemed to be go broke or win every penny on the table. While I love to win big, the risk just did not seem to fit the possible reward. I bought in for $3K each time and felt like a short stack. There were 2-4 players with $10K plus and some as much as $25K. I ended as a $300 winner and a $1,200 loser in my 2 sessions and felt horrible and stressed out after each short 5 and 6 hour session. I wish you all the best, but I just can not see how playing NL for a living is a healthy situation. Am I missing something?(Striving to the BIG GAME - See you in 3-5 years)

[DonkSlayer 1]

In contrast, I sat in on a 5-10 NL game twice recently, and the table was a much younger crowd. Taunting and talking smack was the norm. Players would come and go quickly as their money could vanish in a blink of an eye. Everyone seemed on edge and the stress level was not good. Most pots were raised from $30-$50 pre flop and 1/2 of those were rereaised to over $100. It was nearly impossible to play suited connectors or small pairs for any value as you could go broke just trying to hit something.

I NL.

[Royal_Tour 0]

I wish you all the best, but I just can not see how playing NL for a living is a healthy situation. Am I missing something?(Striving to the BIG GAME - See you in 3-5 years)

so you witnessed a very very small % of what a NL cash game can be like.This isnt the norm. Its not like this online. and further more, it takes a different type of person to enjoy No limit, vs someone who would rather play limit.

[TheWatchMan 0]

good post. you just have to be sick in the head to play NL fulll time. nothing more to it.

[Shizant 0]

I play a lot of NL live cash games, that's pretty much all I play. A few of the biggest things that I believe are required to play NL full time are an appropriate bankroll, table selection, seat positioning while at the table, reading players, and knowing how to control pot sizes when you have a vulnerable hand and how to build pots when you hit a monster flop. I play to win big pots and I wait for those opportunities.When I enter a poker room I always try to find the table with the biggest suckers with the most chips. If that means that I have to sit down at a $2-$5 NL vs. a $5-$10 NL then I will. If I think the game is softer at the $2-$5 table why should I go and compete for the chips in a tougher game. I'm playing to win money not to prove I can out play better players... After finding my table, which will most likely be the one that has the most chips on it (for that blind level), I find the idiot with the most chips and I sit directly to his left. If that seat is unavailable I will obviously still sit down and change seats to his left as they become available. I want to have position on him as much as possible and I try to get involved with him when I know HE HAS A BIG PF HAND that he won't get off of...I also do not get attached to any hand, unless it's the nut or pretty close to it. I frequently muck A, picture out of position. I keep pots small when I don't have a monster. I play to make a five card hand I don't get too crazy over TP/TK or bottom 2 pair, especially if there is a flush/straight draw out there. Most of the time the idiot is going to see the river if they have an open ended straight draw or flush draw, regardless of how much you bet. So, I try to keep those pots small at least until after the turn if not the river. If he catches, then he catches. If he doesn't I will take down the small pot, if he does catch then I loose the least. IMO, this is one thing that most decent Limit players don't understand.Most Limit players will bet TP/TK or bottom 2 pair hard to get the drawing hands out. But you need to keep in mind that most of the time the idiots will not lay down a draw and the one time they do catch on you it may be when they have you covered in chips. I will frequently slow play big PF hands (Q,Q J,J 10,10) at an opportunity to hit a big flop against an idiot. I can never understand when a player says "I hate jacks". They hate jacks because they don't know how to play them correctly... A lot of times I'll see players re-raise 20xbb out of the big blind with jacks, just because they don't want to see a flop and just take down the pot right there. I almost will always check Jacks in the big blind for a chance at catching a big flop, like set over set. If the flop comes out with over cards I simply check/fold to a bet.From my experience, the mindset for limit is to value bet your hands and try to get in as many bets as possible. My mindset for NL is to trap the shi.t out of the idiot and take all their chips in one big pot. I always keep in mind that I don't need to outplay the best player at the table I just need to take the most chips as possible from the idiots at the table. I wait and conserve my chips specifically for these times.The OP says that he normally plays 30-60 or 40-80 Limit. From my experience, there are not too many "idiots" that are going to be sitting down at these tables.

[Figurado 0]

I agree completely. I assume you play in Vegas as do I, and your experience is mine as well.I don't figure I play as much as you do and 40-80 sometimes seems a little high for me depending on the action in the game (regular capped pre-flop pots with 4-5 in is just not my favorite type of table), but I have played middle limit all over Vegas as well and low (up to 5-10) NL (I also play a good bit in California, Arizona, and Dallas). I was actually at that NL table at the Wynn when Daniel bought in for a stack exponentially larger than everyone else's at the table.Anyway, I too find the pure social aspect of the game more enjoyable at a limit or stud table. Even if I am playing a little (or a lot) over my head, the atmosphere is fun and happy and a truly good time (sure most are there to win/make money).At most of the NL tables, even 2-5 tables, sometimes it seems as if the fun people are there to have is based in ego, meanspiritedness, and stress. I play better when the game is good and I am under stress, but it is a good stress, not the stress of anger or fighting or disrespect. I literally know people in town who love nothing more than aggitating some tourist into a steaming rant.I really like poker. I have found branching out into the odd mixed games around town to be a great way to keep liking poker as well as keeping the majority of my play in limit and stud. But I also like NL, it is exciting, challenging, and frankly there is still a ton of money to be made even at the 1-2 level. I am not a consistent tournament winner - I am down versus what I have put into tournaments as a total - and I use big cash wins and bankroll extra to buy into tournaments. But it is increasingly difficult to enjoy NL cash when a 2-5 $1000 cap table has $30k on it.So I know this is long, but I haven't seen anybody say what I feel for a while.NL is great, but sometimes it is really hard to find a game that is profitable, has fun and challenging game play, and socially enjoyable.Oh, for Vegas NL fun and the blowing off of bad run steam... a few of my buddies and I play the $100 cap 1-2 NL at the Imperial Palace. If you haven't played like that before or in a long while... it is really refreshing. And these days, sometimes there are 4-6 players from bigger games in that game donking around. It is a lot of fun and often my favorite way to play NL - at the time I was irratated at Daniel for buying in huge and running me off a profitable table, but now, flopping around on a $100 max table for fun I must admit I can see how adding a zero to everyones bets was a good time. Just for me it means a $100 table...

[Vegas King 0]

I play a lot of NL live cash games, that's pretty much all I play. A few of the biggest things that I believe are required to play NL full time are an appropriate bankroll, table selection, seat positioning while at the table, reading players, and knowing how to control pot sizes when you have a vulnerable hand and how to build pots when you hit a monster flop. I play to win big pots and I wait for those opportunities.When I enter a poker room I always try to find the table with the biggest suckers with the most chips. If that means that I have to sit down at a $2-$5 NL vs. a $5-$10 NL then I will. If I think the game is softer at the $2-$5 table why should I go and compete for the chips in a tougher game. I'm playing to win money not to prove I can out play better players... After finding my table, which will most likely be the one that has the most chips on it (for that blind level), I find the idiot with the most chips and I sit directly to his left. If that seat is unavailable I will obviously still sit down and change seats to his left as they become available. I want to have position on him as much as possible and I try to get involved with him when I know HE HAS A BIG PF HAND that he won't get off of...I also do not get attached to any hand, unless it's the nut or pretty close to it. I frequently muck A, picture out of position. I keep pots small when I don't have a monster. I play to make a five card hand I don't get too crazy over TP/TK or bottom 2 pair, especially if there is a flush/straight draw out there. Most of the time the idiot is going to see the river if they have an open ended straight draw or flush draw, regardless of how much you bet. So, I try to keep those pots small at least until after the turn if not the river. If he catches, then he catches. If he doesn't I will take down the small pot, if he does catch then I loose the least. IMO, this is one thing that most decent Limit players don't understand.Most Limit players will bet TP/TK or bottom 2 pair hard to get the drawing hands out. But you need to keep in mind that most of the time the idiots will not lay down a draw and the one time they do catch on you it may be when they have you covered in chips. I will frequently slow play big PF hands (Q,Q J,J 10,10) at an opportunity to hit a big flop against an idiot. I can never understand when a player says "I hate jacks". They hate jacks because they don't know how to play them correctly... A lot of times I'll see players re-raise 20xbb out of the big blind with jacks, just because they don't want to see a flop and just take down the pot right there. I almost will always check Jacks in the big blind for a chance at catching a big flop, like set over set. If the flop comes out with over cards I simply check/fold to a bet.From my experience, the mindset for limit is to value bet your hands and try to get in as many bets as possible. My mindset for NL is to trap the shi.t out of the idiot and take all their chips in one big pot. I always keep in mind that I don't need to outplay the best player at the table I just need to take the most chips as possible from the idiots at the table. I wait and conserve my chips specifically for these times.The OP says that he normally plays 30-60 or 40-80 Limit. From my experience, there are not too many "idiots" that are going to be sitting down at these tables.

Great insight......You would be shocked at the Fish at 30/60 and 40/80, especially at the WSOP. The 50/100 stud 8 or better practically let me retire for the rest of the year.

[fleung22 1]

I still consider Limit Holdem my best game but have really worked on my NL game because that's where the fish is. If the fishies started playing 2-7 draw I'd play that.One thing I have noticed since I've started playing NL cash games regularly is that I can get a lot more winning sessions. My rules are the same...don't play tired, play for a certain amount of hours, yada yada yada. In limit the natural swings force you to have plenty of losing sessions because you are carving out the edge in the long run. But in NL you don't need cards and there aren't as many show downs so you can bank a lot more wins if you outplay your opponents.

[Shizant 0]

Great insight......You would be shocked at the Fish at 30/60 and 40/80, especially at the WSOP. The 50/100 stud 8 or better practically let me retire for the rest of the year.

I believe it... But that's pretty much the same at all the cash games during the WSOP.

[antistuff 0]

Most of the time the idiot is going to see the river if they have an open ended straight draw or flush draw, regardless of how much you bet. So, I try to keep those pots small at least until after the turn if not the river. If he catches, then he catches.

whoa whoa whoa backup there. think about what you are saying here.

[benhoug 0]

The thing I can't get around playing NL live is the ridiculous time charge. At the casinos near me it's $8/30 mins. I know you can claim the rake is higher than that, but you're only paying rake on the pots you win - you're paying time to sit there and fold. Also the NL games near me have way low caps to the buy-in. The 2/5 game has a $200 cap. It's a shovefest that can barely be called poker.

[Dratj 0]

At a 5 10 nl, game, 3k is a big stack. If you can handle 5k swings, you can play 5 10 nl.

[pokerinc 0]

whoa whoa whoa backup there. think about what you are saying here.

Exactly. That's a ridiculous remark. "I like to give the fish odds to draw instead of charge them through the nose." I prefer win small pots when they miss instead of big pots when they miss. It makes me happy.Donk.

[Shizant 0]

whoa whoa whoa backup there. think about what you are saying here.

I know what you're thinking... and I've had discussions and arguments about this several times.You're thinking that if the idiot is not going to lay down a draw then "over the long run" you will be ahead. While in Limit this is true, because the betting structure is the same. In NL this is not necessarily true, because he may catch it on you the one time you stick your entire stack in there and he'll clean you out. If he ends up walking away from the table before you can get those chips back....you're f.ucked...Of course what I wrote before is a general guide line of how I approach NL. Obviously you need to adjust your play based on the table and how many people are in the hand with you.

Exactly. That's a ridiculous remark. "I like to give the fish odds to draw instead of charge them through the nose." I prefer win small pots when they miss instead of big pots when they miss. It makes me happy.Donk.

Obviously the fish/idiot is there to gamble and win. Most of the time when they do score a big pot they will tighten up or cash out. I just try to not play a big pot with them unless I know I have hand on lock down. Most of the time the fish/idiot is going to loose everything regardless so why should I get in there and gamble for a lot of chips with them when I only have a 60/40 or 65/35 edge....

At a 5 10 nl, game, 3k is a big stack. If you can handle 5k swings, you can play 5 10 nl.

QFT

[antistuff 0]

I know what you're thinking... and I've had discussions and arguments about this several times.You're thinking that if the idiot is not going to lay down a draw then "over the long run" you will be ahead. While in Limit this is true, because the betting structure is the same. In NL this is not necessarily true, because he may catch it on you the one time you stick your entire stack in there and he'll clean you out. If he ends up walking away from the table before you can get those chips back....you're f.ucked...Of course what I wrote before is a general guide line of how I approach NL. Obviously you need to adjust your play based on the table and how many people are in the hand with you.Obviously the fish/idiot is there to gamble and win. Most of the time when they do score a big pot they will tighten up or cash out. I just try to not play a big pot with them unless I know I have hand on lock down. Most of the time the fish/idiot is going to loose everything regardless so why should I get in there and gamble for a lot of chips with them when I only have a 60/40 or 65/35 edge....QFT

i disagree with this. if you aint gonna get the money in when youre a 70/30 favorite then when are you?

[DonkSlayer 1]

Donk.

Slayed. www.shizant.justgotowned.com

[mtdesmoines 3]

I always keep in mind that I don't need to outplay the best player at the table I just need to take the most chips as possible from the idiots at the table. I wait and conserve my chips specifically for these times.The OP says that he normally plays 30-60 or 40-80 Limit. From my experience, there are not too many "idiots" that are going to be sitting down at these tables.

Everything you needed to know about poker but didn't learn in kindergarten.

[BWToth 0]

Of course what I wrote before is a general guide line of how I approach NL. Obviously you need to adjust your play based on the table and how many people are in the hand with you.Obviously the fish/idiot is there to gamble and win. Most of the time when they do score a big pot they will tighten up or cash out. I just try to not play a big pot with them unless I know I have hand on lock down. Most of the time the fish/idiot is going to loose everything regardless so why should I get in there and gamble for a lot of chips with them when I only have a 60/40 or 65/35 edge....QFT

I can see this point, although it doesn't seem to follow good logic, as was stated not so nicely by the previous posters who called you a donk. I'm interested in other people's thoughts on this, the whole 'make em pay to play their draws'...or whatever the common addage is.I can't quite articulate this but it seems that if someone is willing to risk all their chips on any avg. flush draw after the flop, then this person is not a good player and it would be better to play smaller pots and outplay this person over the course of many hands than 'gamble' on one hand where you may be anywhere from 60-70% to win. It seems like getting your money in at this spot actually reduces your own egde over the bad player.If I can outplay a player over the short long-run, or single session, 90% of the time why would I want to give him a 35% chance at any single instance.

[Shizant 0]

i disagree with this. if you aint gonna get the money in when youre a 70/30 favorite then when are you?

I understand what you're saying... But, also 70/30 is different then 60/40 or 65/35.Again the idiots are most likely going to loose everything regardless. I'd rather have them crushed when I stick my stack in there instead of gambling it up with them. My style of play is how you avoid the amount of "swings" that everyone speaks of.I posted my opinions as a different way to approach the NL cash games. If you guys are winning players with the way you play then there is no need to follow my advice. But, if you are looking to make to move from limit to NL and avoid the swings I'd suggest just slowing down a little bit. Wait for the right spot to pick off the fish/idiots. I didn't make these posts to start an argument and I really don't feel like getting into one.

I can see this point, although it doesn't seem to follow good logic, as was stated not so nicely by the previous posters who called you a donk. I'm interested in other people's thoughts on this, the whole 'make em pay to play their draws'...or whatever the common addage is.I can't quite articulate this but it seems that if someone is willing to risk all their chips on any avg. flush draw after the flop, then this person is not a good player and it would be better to play smaller pots and outplay this person over the course of many hands than 'gamble' on one hand where you may be anywhere from 60-70% to win. It seems like getting your money in at this spot actually reduces your own egde over the bad player.If I can outplay a player over the short long-run, or single session, 90% of the time why would I want to give him a 35% chance at any single instance.

Thank you....

Slayed. www.shizant.justgotowned.com

lol.... I like it.

[antistuff 0]

I understand what you're saying... But, also 70/30 is different then 60/40 or 65/35.Again the idiots are most likely going to loose everything regardless. I'd rather have them crushed when I stick my stack in there instead of gambling it up with them. My style of play is how you avoid the amount of "swings" that everyone speaks of.I posted my opinions as a different way to approach the NL cash games. If you guys are winning players with the way you play then there is no need to follow my advice. But, if you are looking to make to move from limit to NL and avoid the swings I'd suggest just slowing down a little bit. Wait for the right spot to pick off the fish/idiots. I didn't make these posts to start an argument and I really don't feel like getting into one.Thank you....

im actually a loser in no limit cash games so thank you for the advice. and now that you have explained yourself that way you have a completely valid point.there are actually a couple of good threads on 2+2 high stakes limit holdem right now about tossing away slightly +ev situations to avoid variance. oh and toppair vs flush draw is 67/33, so i guess we can compromise.

[Shizant 0]

im actually a loser in no limit cash games so thank you for the advice. and now that you have explained yourself that way you have a completely valid point.there are actually a couple of good threads on 2+2 high stakes limit holdem right now about tossing away slightly +ev situations to avoid variance. oh and toppair vs flush draw is 67/33, so i guess we can compromise.

Compromise it is... I'd like to see those threads if you have any available links.

[antistuff 0]

Compromise it is... I'd like to see those threads if you have any available links.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat...e=0#Post7956195http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat...e=0#Post7913337http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat...e=0#Post7969048i have a feeling thier discusion on this sort of thing goes farther back than this.oh and variance isnt the only reason some of them are doing the things they do. they also feel that they just dont have it in them to play the hand well and that it could cause them to tilt and play future hands poorly.

[Vegas King 0]

At a 5 10 nl, game, 3k is a big stack. If you can handle 5k swings, you can play 5 10 nl.

Not sure where you are playing, but that was not the case at these games. I really do not like playing when I am covered by anyone, but I was covered by 2-4 people at all times with up to 25K in front of them.

[Shizant 0]

Not sure where you are playing, but that was not the case at these games. I really do not like playing when I am covered by anyone, but I was covered by 2-4 people at all times with up to 25K in front of them.

Some of the $5-$10 NL games in Vegas do get big. But this is when you look at other NL options if you don't want to play that big of a game.

[ThreeBet 0]

I totally agree on the "Social" aspect of Limit vs No Limit .... I think it just has to be the fact that having your entire stack at risk on any hand you play makes for less good naturedness at tha table.I play 20/40 Kill live as my regular game but have recently played a few sesions of 3/6 NL trying to get the hang of it and preparing myself if Limit disappears entirely (almost all new players all play NL now) and the differences in how everyone acts and treats each other is vastly different so far.It has to be the simple fact that one bet is way less than your entire stack and that puts everyone more on edge.