No Limit Full Time

[PoppinFresh 0]

A couple have already said it but no limit is so relaxing and easy compared to limit games, getting bad beated 9999999999 pots in a row drives me insane. I don't understand how people play limit full time...

[HoosierAlum 0]

A couple have already said it but no limit is so relaxing and easy compared to limit games, getting bad beated 9999999999 pots in a row drives me insane. I don't understand how people play limit full time...

QFTPlaying limit full-time almost drove me insane.

[checkymcfold 0]

LOL poppin and hoosier, i have no clue how you guys handle the NL thing. give me LO8 any day.it really is a weird matter of preference... like, i don't think i have the balls to play higher level NL properly, but for whatever reason i can handle a day of getting sucked out on and generally laugh it off. and for me, getting stacked one time on a two outer bugs me worse than going down to 5 running draws hurts in limit games.

[David_Nicoson 1]

STOP IT RIGHT NOW

Have we done this one before?

[nomad_monad 0]

You sound like such a tight/weak player.. You need to be more tight/aggressive.How exactly are you gonna 'keep pots small'? What does that mean? Just fold to any pressure unless you have the nuts?Justifying giving loose players the correct odds to call is beyond me. And if they see you as playing like this, then you're not gonna get any action anyway, when you hit this 'monster' hand you keep talking about.And by this time I also doubt that you would have 'built your stack slowly', as you said.

Actually if his style of play is consistent with how he states he plays TPTK and bottom two, my guess is that he's a LAG.He sees a lot of flops and plays a lot postflop. Loose.He bets hard when he's got something worth betting. Aggressive.You keep pots small by betting to give improper odds, but don't overdo it. Example: pot is $50 on flop. Heads up. You have TPTK, there's a flush draw.You can bet $25, giving villain 3-1 and still not proper odds to draw to the next card.Sometimes you even check behind in position on the turn after betting the flop when you have a very vulnerable hand. Yes, sometimes you get outdrawn, but other times the draw misses and you induce a river bluff that you pick off.Successful and profitable pot control is the hallmark of an accomplished player. It's a hard style to play because when you're betting smaller, calls/raises from villains are harder to assess because your bets themselves don't represent as much strength. Plus if a draw hits, you have to be a lot better at making a tough fold and not paying it off because when you charge draws less, you have to be better about not paying off villains' implied odds. You have to be much better at reading and playing postflop in order to be successful. You discard the "raise/fold" mentality that infects a lot of TAG thinking (which definitely makes decisions easier) and call more often as well. Watch the high-stakes top pros - they do this a ton.The one issue with this is that when you play a lot of small ball, betting a monster strongly sets off alarm bells. But there are several things that usually counterbalance this: - you will typically bet good draws similarly - occasionally you throw in a big bet air bluff - because you're involved in so many pots, weaker players start to forget to distinguish between actual bet sizes. This is one of the real keys of playing LAG - by betting so often, you condition your opponents into forgetting the distinction between a $50 bet and a $150 bet.

[HoosierAlum 0]

LOL poppin and hoosier, i have no clue how you guys handle the NL thing. give me LO8 any day.it really is a weird matter of preference... like, i don't think i have the balls to play higher level NL properly, but for whatever reason i can handle a day of getting sucked out on and generally laugh it off. and for me, getting stacked one time on a two outer bugs me worse than going down to 5 running draws hurts in limit games.

Well limit O8 isnt as bad as limit HE. The problem with O8 is that you can rarely find a regular game between 30/60 and 1k/2k on the net. Sometimes there is a 100/200 game on tilt, but it isn't going all the time.Regarding the difference in beats between limit and NL it is definitely a matter of preference. Taking 5 beats steams me alot more than just 1 beat for a huge pot. One of the biggest contributing factors that helped me switch from limit to NL was the fact that in NL I can book winning sessions VERY consistently. Good players in NL win a very large % of their sessions, while even the best limit players don't book wins nearly as often as an average NL player.I completely understand that the game isn't about "booking wins" but it sure as hell helps control life tilt, etc.

[No_Neck 0]

Well limit O8 isnt as bad as limit HE. The problem with O8 is that you can rarely find a regular game between 30/60 and 1k/2k on the net. Sometimes there is a 100/200 game on tilt, but it isn't going all the time.Regarding the difference in beats between limit and NL it is definitely a matter of preference. Taking 5 beats steams me alot more than just 1 beat for a huge pot. One of the biggest contributing factors that helped me switch from limit to NL was the fact that in NL I can book winning sessions VERY consistently. Good players in NL win a very large % of their sessions, while even the best limit players don't book wins nearly as often as an average NL player.I completely understand that the game isn't about "booking wins" but it sure as hell helps control life tilt, etc.

I have found that when I am playing my best NL game I am online winning about 50% of my sessions (this is a pokertracker session not a like a day) it is just that the winning sessions are much greater than the losing ones.Also anyone who doesn't understand what Shiznat was saying about keeping the pot small with TPTK you really need to learn how to manipulate the pot size. IMHO it is the most important skill in No Limit holdem besides steam control.

[checkymcfold 0]

Well limit O8 isnt as bad as limit HE. The problem with O8 is that you can rarely find a regular game between 30/60 and 1k/2k on the net. Sometimes there is a 100/200 game on tilt, but it isn't going all the time.Regarding the difference in beats between limit and NL it is definitely a matter of preference. Taking 5 beats steams me alot more than just 1 beat for a huge pot. One of the biggest contributing factors that helped me switch from limit to NL was the fact that in NL I can book winning sessions VERY consistently. Good players in NL win a very large % of their sessions, while even the best limit players don't book wins nearly as often as an average NL player.I completely understand that the game isn't about "booking wins" but it sure as hell helps control life tilt, etc.

yeah, LO8 is for sure a smoother ride, although it can play so slowly sometimes that things can get a little frustrating. and for whatever reason, i don't really mind the impossibility of consistent wins in LHE. the single beat that stacks me in NL just pisses me off so much more. it's a weird thing; i'd be really curious as to what sorts of people prefer NL to limit and vice versa--i'd bet you could find some sort of personality disorder in the NL guys.

[jjdylan 0]

i totally agree with shizant. if you make too large a bet with a marginal hand like one pair or bottom 2, your going to pot commit yourself on the river when the flush card comes off or the straight card. Another reason for keeping the pots small is to protect yourself from the very good nl players at your table. If you make a pot size bet, and your opponent calls, and now a scare card comes off on the turn, and your opponent fires out a big bet, its very hard to call. If you keep the pots small, you dont get bluffed as much, and if you do get bluffed, its usually for an amount your willing to call. and for those of you that think this is a donkey way of playing, a lot of accomplished pros play this way. People like gavin smith, phil hellmuth, daniel, theres a pretty long list of players who play small ball. keep the pots small when you have a marginal hand, play a big pot with a monster.

Pot Control and playing like a nit are two different things. Who is the fish in this scenario? The guy that made his draw on the river or the guy that gave him good odds to do so the whole way? You can control the size of the pot while still "preventing" your opponent from drawing correctly. You're right that betting POT/POT/POT and then getting stacked with TPTK is a bad play. But if you feel someone is drawing against you, you should be able to strongly bet your TPTK while still being able to lay it down if they do infact draw out. Keeping the pots small so you dont get bluffed as much is a horrible excuse for playing this way. A decent player will catch on to you and bluff you out of far more pots when scare cards start hitting. People will bluff small pots with a MUCH higher frequency than they'll bluff big pots. I have no doubt that you guys may be winning players, but it sounds like you leave WAY too much money on the table.

[AcesUp46 0]

I've only played up to 5 5nl in vegas and a big stack at that game was about 1.5K, so 300 bb's.I've played 5 10 nl near my home here at Fallview Niagara and 3k was a big stack as the max buy in was 1K. Generally speaking, for live and online, most buy ins are usually 100bb. 300bb is pretty big. I know Wynn has unlimited buy ins but I don't see the point in sitting with 2500bb's in any nl game. Why? If I have 25K, I'm going to play a limit with bigger blinds something like 100 200 nl and sit with a little over 100 bb's. What I'm saying is that it does not sound normal for everyone to be sitting with 2500bb's in a nl game. I mean, look at the big game that DN plays in. They cap the losses at 100k per pot and by extension I'm sure that they are not playing blinds of $20- $40.

The Majestic II (formery Trump) casino here in Northwest Indiana has a really stupid structure, 2/5 NL with a max buy-in of $200...yup, max buy-in is 50 big blinds. So effectively, you're playing it like an PokerStars SNG at the 2nd level. Add in ridiculous time charges as well.

[Abbaddabba 0]

Actually if his style of play is consistent with how he states he plays TPTK and bottom two, my guess is that he's a LAG.He sees a lot of flops and plays a lot postflop. Loose.He bets hard when he's got something worth betting. Aggressive.

Even the most passive players in existence bet with what he's saying constitutes being worth betting hard with.

[nomad_monad 0]

Even the most passive players in existence bet with what he's saying constitutes being worth betting hard with.

well yeah, but it's not like he's checking with TPTK either. he can speak for himself, but my take on pot control is that your betting frequency shouldn't be that much less than a TAG player in a similar situation with similar cards. the difference is in bet-sizing, and also a much more value-driven/semibluffing approach to raising that isn't as concerned with the goal of hand definition.

[slim258 0]

LOL poppin and hoosier, i have no clue how you guys handle the NL thing. give me LO8 any day. Yeah, floppin quads and getting half is my idea of easing the pain, too! LOL Good discussion- I've just had my share of LO8 lately. I switch between LO8, NL cash, and LHE online. My pref. is NL cash because I can control the action more but my most consistent $$ has been in limit. Continue. . . . .

[David_Nicoson 1]

The Majestic II (formery Trump) casino here in Northwest Indiana has a really stupid structure, 2/5 NL with a max buy-in of $200...yup, max buy-in is 50 big blinds. So effectively, you're playing it like an PokerStars SNG at the 2nd level. Add in ridiculous time charges as well.

It's about the same distance for me to go there or Caesar's Indiana. I don't go to Chicago anymore, because of that stupid structure. I let them know that, too, but I'm sure they'll get over it.

[Shizant 0]

Actually if his style of play is consistent with how he states he plays TPTK and bottom two, my guess is that he's a LAG.He sees a lot of flops and plays a lot postflop. Loose.He bets hard when he's got something worth betting. Aggressive.You keep pots small by betting to give improper odds, but don't overdo it. Example: pot is $50 on flop. Heads up. You have TPTK, there's a flush draw.You can bet $25, giving villain 3-1 and still not proper odds to draw to the next card.Sometimes you even check behind in position on the turn after betting the flop when you have a very vulnerable hand. Yes, sometimes you get outdrawn, but other times the draw misses and you induce a river bluff that you pick off.Successful and profitable pot control is the hallmark of an accomplished player. It's a hard style to play because when you're betting smaller, calls/raises from villains are harder to assess because your bets themselves don't represent as much strength. Plus if a draw hits, you have to be a lot better at making a tough fold and not paying it off because when you charge draws less, you have to be better about not paying off villains' implied odds. You have to be much better at reading and playing postflop in order to be successful. You discard the "raise/fold" mentality that infects a lot of TAG thinking (which definitely makes decisions easier) and call more often as well. Watch the high-stakes top pros - they do this a ton.The one issue with this is that when you play a lot of small ball, betting a monster strongly sets off alarm bells. But there are several things that usually counterbalance this: - you will typically bet good draws similarly - occasionally you throw in a big bet air bluff - because you're involved in so many pots, weaker players start to forget to distinguish between actual bet sizes. This is one of the real keys of playing LAG - by betting so often, you condition your opponents into forgetting the distinction between a $50 bet and a $150 bet.

Pretty accurate depiction of the style I play."You keep pots small by betting to give improper odds, but don't overdo it." - Very true. "don't overdo it" in vulnerable situations. You are playing a cash game, you have the time on your side to sit there and out play the weaker players.Regarding "betting a monster strongly sets off alarm bells". Everything you listed below that were quite true. But again as I said in my original statement. You need to know how to not only keep pots small but also how to build them up when you do hit a monster. It may not always work but the times that it does, you get paid. Also, most of the time a fish won't notice the "alarm bells". The skill in taking down a big pot when you hit a monster is not by just betting big and hope they call. It's done by trapping a player. Getting them to commit themselves to the pot. Trapping a player starts off PF not just after the flop. Again that is why I will slow play big PF hands (Q,Q J,J, 10,10), especially while in early position. When I'm in late position, if there is an early raise by another player and it's folded around to me I will rarely even re-raise with A,A or K,K.My style is very "read" dependent. Not just of the players but of the situation also. Which is why I primarily stick to LIVE NL cash games.When my schedule is accommodating, I also play very long sessions, sometimes sessions of 24+ hours, especially when I've built a big stack in a NL game that has a cap on the buy-in.

[Thriceknurd 0]

The skill in taking down a big pot when you hit a monster is not by just betting big and hope they call. It's done by trapping a player. Getting them to commit themselves to the pot. Trapping a player starts off PF not just after the flop. Again that is why I will slow play big PF hands (Q,Q J,J, 10,10), especially while in early position. When I'm in late position, if there is an early raise by another player and it's folded around to me I will rarely even re-raise with A,A or K,K.

I'd like to see an example from you of this when it actually worked, because I'd say you would want to always re-raise with AA or KK, especially in that position and in this situation. Depending on the player, most raises from early position usually indicate a very strong hand, so I feel re-raising with AA or KK in late position can accomplish much more then just flat calling, because they'll likely see a flop with you at a higher price or re-raise all in. You say you're objective is to commit your opponent to the pot, then you would do so more often so by taking this route. I guess it bothers me when you say you RARELY re-raise in this spot. Sure, trapping your opponent by smooth calling PF can work out great, which is why I'm asking for a specific situation in which this worked out and busted someone.

[Shizant 0]

I'd like to see an example from you of this when it actually worked, because I'd say you would want to always re-raise with AA or KK, especially in that position and in this situation. Depending on the player, most raises from early position usually indicate a very strong hand, so I feel re-raising with AA or KK in late position can accomplish much more then just flat calling, because they'll likely see a flop with you at a higher price or re-raise all in. You say you're objective is to commit your opponent to the pot, then you would do so more often so by taking this route. I guess it bothers me when you say you RARELY re-raise in this spot. Sure, trapping your opponent by smooth calling PF can work out great, which is why I'm asking for a specific situation in which this worked out and busted someone.

Warning this gets long...Ok, I'll do my best at showing you a few situations of my style. Most of the time I don't like to post specific situations because people will think I play this way all the time, which is not true. As I'm sure you know and most people on this forum know there are no exacts or guarantees in poker. You need to consistently be aware of the players that are in the hand and several other details such as their stack size, aprox. how much they are in the game for, if you've played with them before and so on...To give you an idea of my style, here are a few hands from my last session: I played this weekend from 4:00pm Saturday to 12:00 Noon on Sunday. Played at the Hustler and bought in at a $2-$5 NL Game for $300, (no rebuys) and I ended up cashing out for $1,700. I know this may not be the correct way or thread to talk about this but, what the hell...1st hand:Early in the session (before 5:00PM) My stack is around +$350ish I'm in the SB with K,K. We're playing 9 handed. I'm sitting in Seat 1 and the loose fish that I've never played with before is on the table is sitting in Seat 7 with about $900+ in front of him. He had been calling a lot of big PF raises cracked a couple of guys since I've been there. Button is in seat 9. It's folded around to seat 6 which is a player I've played with a few times in the past few weeks. He pretty much a Tight/weak player and had about $500 in front of him. He raises up to $20, seat 7 calls and it comes to me. I debated for a few seconds on how to play this hand. I could re-raise and make it $100-$120 and hope I get one caller. Then push on the flop if there is no "A". Or, I could smooth call and hope for a board of A,K,X or a low flop. But, I decided that at this point I don't want to get cute with this hand with my current chip stack. I'm pretty sure Seat 6 would call a re-raise up to ~$100 with A,K or 10,10. I decided to push all-in and maybe get one caller. If everyone folds then I still would take down a $50 pot and increase my stack by about 15%.I still had my chips in a rack and I push the rack in really aggressive (as if I'm trying to steal the pot). Seat 6 thinks for about 20 seconds and finally mucks (Showing pocket 7's) even though seat 7 still was in the hand behind him. Seat 7 was in a big debate with himself. He says something along the lines of "I think you're making a move, I could be wrong but I think I'm 50/50." He calls with 6,6. No 6 on the board and I double up. The fish then goes on to loose his entire stack and leaves the table.2nd hand (Here's an A,A in late position situation):A couple hours later. I have about $850 in front of me, still 9 handed. I pick up Ad,Ah on the button. Tight/fish player with about $350 in front of him raises UTG to $30. I'm putting him on a hand like K,K, Q,Q J,J or A,K. From what I've seen in his play he will come out firing big PF with a big PF hands. Everyone folds around to me. At this point with no other players in the hand but the blinds I decide to smooth call and wait for a safe flop before pushing him in. If the flop comes out like K,x,x or Q, J,x then I can slow down and see how he continues with the hand. I'd rather see a flop with him before pushing in because of his stack size. If he had something <$200 left in front of him then I would have just re-raise him to $130 PF and hope he pushes. But I don't want to just re-raise him PF and have him push in $350 and I call and leave it up to "the poker gods".Flop comes out like 9,6,4 (not exactly sure of the board, but it comes out 9 high with 2 diamonds). He fires out $75. I hesitate for a few seconds and min-raise him to $150 (hoping that he pushes). He instantly pushes all-in. I call and he flips over J,J. Turn miss, river J! I loose that hand to a 2 outer.This is not a situation that I won the hand but at the same time 90% of the time he's not going to hit that 2 outer. The point is, is that he did have a hand around what I was thinking he'd have, but there was no immediate reason to re-raise PF. I'd rather see a flop then continue. I had more opportunity to read him and his reactions, and see a safe flop.Of course, if a player or two had called the $30 PF then I'd re-raise to like $130-$175 and just take one guy to the flop.3rd hand:A few more hours go by and there is a new fish that has come to the table and he's sitting in seat 7 with about $800 in front of him I have moved over to seat 8 (directly to his left). Seat 7 just flopped quad 10's against some guy who had K,K. You could tell he thinks he's on top of the world and nothing can stop him.... (I love it when players are in this state of mind) I have about $500 in front of me. I'm on the button with 5s,4s. It's folded around to seat 7 and he raises to $25 PF I call and the BB calls. The flop comes 10s,5d,3d. Seat 2 (BB) check and seat 7 checks (huh? A,K maybe). So, right away I bet $35. Seat 2 mucks and then seat 7 mum's it over and calls. Turn comes 9d. Important card. I'm almost 100% sure that if seat 7 had Ad,Kd or Ad, Qd or any two diamonds in his hand that he would have bet this flop. So, I know that he didn't hit a flush. But, he may have just picked up a draw...He checks I fire out $100. Thinking that if he doesn't have the Ad or Kd or any other big diamond he's going to fold. But, if he does have one diamond I'm going to charge him to see the river.He ends up calling and the river is a blank. He checks and I check behind him. He shows Ad, Ks and continues to complain how bad of a call my 5,4 suited was pre-flop…. Last decent pot:It was now about 9:00am I’ve built my stack up to $1,200. We are playing 7 handed and there was about $6,000 on the table. I’m on the button with 9s,8d and I’m still in seat 8. Seat 2 ($800) Tight/Weak raises UTG to $25, Seat 3 ($1,700) LAG calls, seat 7 ($1,200) LAG calls, I call and Seat 1 ($1,500, new player from a broken table; no read on him) calls. The flop comes 10s, 4s, 7d Seat 1 checks, Seat 2 bets $100. Seat 3 calls, Seat 7 folds, I call and Seat 1 calls. Turn comes Qs. It’s checked around to me and I check. River comes As. At this point I was not sure what my read was on Seat 1 or 2. I was pretty sure that Seat 3 was on some type of draw. Seat 1 comes out firing for $100. Seat 2 lingers and finally folds. Seat 3 (which is a very good NL player, and very good at reading players) calls the $100. At this point I was really puzzled on what to do. Obviously I could not re-raise. But, was my 9 high flush good? I figured that Seat 3 doesn’t have the Ks because he would have re-raised Seat 1 instead of just insta-calling him. After thinking about it for about 30 seconds. Seat 3 says “come on what do you have to decide about, you’re either going to have the Js or Ks.” Big mistake on his part. He just basically told me that he doesn’t have either one of them. He might be trying to talk me into calling but I didn’t feel like he would have said anything if he really wanted me to call. Finally I call and my 9 high flush was good. Seat 1 mucked his hand and Seat 3 shows 6s,7s and folds. Afterwards, Seat 3 said that he checked the turn because he was afraid that someone else might have been on the flush draw as well. Seat 2 got all pissed off and called us all fish and stormed off the table to go take a break. He says that he had 10,10.Since I did not have an a good read on seat 1 but I knew that seat 3 was a good player with good reading abilities I trusted his read on seat 1 since he called him but then I was able to put the puzzle together and figure out that my 9 high flush was most likely good.So, there are a few examples of my style of playing. Feel free to ask any questions or comments or flame...

[NoSup4U 0]

i'd bet you could find some sort of personality disorder in the NL guys.

Um, gamble isn't a disorder dude! :)MuahahahaMark

[Thriceknurd 0]

2nd hand (Here's an A,A in late position situation):A couple hours later. I have about $850 in front of me, still 9 handed. I pick up Ad,Ah on the button. Tight/fish player with about $350 in front of him raises UTG to $30. I'm putting him on a hand like K,K, Q,Q J,J or A,K. From what I've seen in his play he will come out firing big PF with a big PF hands. Everyone folds around to me. At this point with no other players in the hand but the blinds I decide to smooth call and wait for a safe flop before pushing him in. If the flop comes out like K,x,x or Q, J,x then I can slow down and see how he continues with the hand. I'd rather see a flop with him before pushing in because of his stack size. If he had something <$200 left in front of him then I would have just re-raise him to $130 PF and hope he pushes. But I don't want to just re-raise him PF and have him push in $350 and I call and leave it up to "the poker gods".Flop comes out like 9,6,4 (not exactly sure of the board, but it comes out 9 high with 2 diamonds). He fires out $75. I hesitate for a few seconds and min-raise him to $150 (hoping that he pushes). He instantly pushes all-in. I call and he flips over J,J. Turn miss, river J! I loose that hand to a 2 outer.This is not a situation that I won the hand but at the same time 90% of the time he's not going to hit that 2 outer. The point is, is that he did have a hand around what I was thinking he'd have, but there was no immediate reason to re-raise PF. I'd rather see a flop then continue. I had more opportunity to read him and his reactions, and see a safe flop.Of course, if a player or two had called the $30 PF then I'd re-raise to like $130-$175 and just take one guy to the flop.

Nice post. Very insightful. I really liked how you played the 5 4 hand. You had a great read with a marginal hand and bet it very well.The 2nd hand is a good example of your style of play and how you trapped your opponent and busted him out. Now I do agree that each and every individual hand is an isolated event, and that there are no absolutes in poker, but I'll explain how I would've played this hand. Again, this leads back to my initial thought that it's usually always better to re-raise in this situation.You had a good read on your opponent, putting him on a range of hands that turned out to be spot on, which is exactly why you most certainly would want to re-raise. You're already assuming your opponent has a top hand after raising from early position and what appears to be a generally tight player, so to re-raise and build the pot before the flop would be optimal, here's why:1) You re-raise xx amount, only to go back around to your opponent who re-raises, allowing you to get all the chips in pre-flop with the best starting hand, and in this situation, not risking your whole stack.2) You re-raise xx amount, and it's back to your opponent to act, who just calls. You now increased the pot for value, and the flop comes out with a scare card against your opponent, or he misses. Example: Your opponent has 10's, JJs, QQs, or KKs. Flop comes with an overcard an any instance, how do you expect to be payed anymore chips? Opponent has AK or possible AQsuited, and the flop misses your opponent. Against a weak player, you can't expect to get much else, but at least you built the pot for value and in this case extracted the most possible chips from your opponent.3) You re-raise and the least favorable outcome is that your opponent folds and the pot is taken down. This is most likely why you smooth called in late position after the action was folded to you, against this single opponent, to prevent this from happening and open an opportunity to trap your opponent heads up.Now in the same instance with your decision to just smooth call, and a scare card comes out and kills the action, or your opponent misses, would you agree that at least by re-raising you extracted as much as you could? In this case your opponent has JJ's, so if the pot was raised up again PF and the same flop came out, you still will end with the same result, all in on the flop in an extremely dominating situation. In any case, you seem to be a very knowledgable player, and explained your thoughts very well. I'm basically bored at work and felt compelled to give some of my input.