Playing With Poor Players...

[Pot Odds RAC 23]

Sure this is the "Captian Obvious" observation of the day....but why do so many average players (I think the very good players understand long term +ev) hate playing with poor players? I was talking with a reasonably experienced player the other day about a local casino and he commented: "I don't like plaing there, too many lousy players - that gets realy old" He went on to say that he'd rather play at another casino where the players were better.Isn't that sort of the point?!? Finding poor players and taking their mobney at the tables?Ok, yes it is nice to be able to make a play and have the other player act as s/he "should" - instead of making a poor call and wind up rivering your butt. However, these are "opportunities" to teach them the wrong lesson. They learn to call you in the incorrect situations. That is just a temporary transfer of chips that'll be coming back as equilibrium will require.Thoughts?

[BudBundy 0]

That is just a temporary transfer of chips that'll be coming back as equilibrium will require.Thoughts?

Which i like to call "Small loans".And i keep telling myself "Only a matter of time only a matter of time"

[JMoney2681 0]

I think it is sometimes harder to determine or read what their holdings are because they never play logically. But anyone that would constantly complain is just crazy. They make you money in the long run.

[Actuary 3]

these players often think their reads are so good that they can outplay "good players" but bad players are "too unpredictable"they suck at math.among other explanations, I'll throw that one in there<45 minutes before someone comes in here and says "I'd rather not play against a bunch of fish..."Followed by Zach having an aneurysms

[JMoney2681 0]

Followed by Zach having an aneurysms

I'd have one too...

[aucu 3]

I love fish, any one who don't just don't like money.But it can get a bit freakyish when the table is full of them.

[Zach6668 513]

The problem is that this is live.The second problem is that at a table of 9 fish and you, you will get outdrawn quite a lot.The third problem is that the long run takes forfuckingever when you only see 25-30 hands / hour.The resolution is that you never feel ahead if you are having a bad session/week/month.You don't see these people complain when they happen to be on an upswing and win 100 BBs in one night, or you do the next time when they expect their 20 BB/hour rate to continue.These people just don't understand long run expectation, that's all.- Zach

[Abbaddabba 0]

There's really no connection between how good someone thinks they are and how good they actually are.I probably get called a fish and/or donkey more often than anyone else on absolute.

[aucu 3]

There's really no connection between how good someone thinks they are and how good they actually are.I probably get called a fish and/or donkey more often than anyone else on absolute.

I love getting called a fish and often respond with some fishy come back like "Well I won didn't I "Sometimes that gets these self deluded table coaches tilting.

[SCS 0]

These people don't understand that they are fish themselves.And yes, I use to be one of these people.

[JMoney2681 0]

These people don't understand that they are fish themselves.And yes, I use to be one of these people.

Me too, many moons ago.

[BudBundy 0]

"Well I won didn't I "

This one is my favourite

[AcesOnFire 0]

This one is my favourite

lolWhenever I get called by afish and they hit, I do what Howard Lederer does, take a deep breath and tell myself 'That's why I'm here...'.

[Marc-O 0]

I once to had this logic...But soon realized.... You see... "Average players" , have been playing the game awhile and understand general strategey ( postion, pot odds, etc.)Problem is, they don't know how to adjust to certain situations like ridiculous play....Once you learn to adjust to these poor players......that's when I find your game really expands and you just start to beat up on these players.It's all about adjusting in poker. And there is never a "Right Answer". All Situational.

[WrongWay 0]

Last night I was playing with some really bad players. I went down quite a few chips before I realized how bad they were. Raising random amounts with nothing or something.... ignoring draws....folding when they shouldn't, etc.I'm no poker expert, but I did read Super System and remember Doyle saying that against bad playes, just play solid fundimental poker. Fewer hands, never bluff, never try to "out play" them... just solid starting hands played conservativly. When you lose, lose small. When you win, win big.So, I fell back to just playing good fundimental poker. I rocked up.I kept getting comments on how easy it was to scare me off... how few hands I was playing... etc. But, what I was doing was taking the cheap draws when they'd give them to me, then letting them hang themselves. Classic, tight/agressive.BORING to play that way. Seriously, no fun at all. fold, fold, fold, limp, fold, fold, fold, small raise, fold, limp, fold, fold, fold..... But when I hit the flush that they didn't expect.... When I had the over straight.... etc, I took huge pots. Seriously.... I flipped up a Q J with three :diamond:s on the board... Gal says, "You were betting with a Q high?" "Yeah, Q high flush..." "Flush? Oh, I didn't even see that."Yeah, I know....They had fun playing lots of hands, I went home with their money.AND, maybe this is the real answer of why some people don't like playing against poor players. Playing against poor players is BORING!!!!! You can't try to use skills to outplay them. Ignore fold equity. Ignore whether or not you're giving them pot odds. Ignore trying to read them based on their actions. You play only the best starting hands, fold most of those unless you hit the flop big, low bet until you've hit a big hand, then value bet them.Boring, boring, boring. But profitable.Sound right?

[TheIceman71 0]

Last night on ESPN's re-run of a day during the 2003 main event, Lon mentioned that Paul Darden said he would rather play against a bunch of quality pros than he would against amateurs because he believes that, since pros no how the game should be played, they are easier to read. Just an interesting piece of info I wanted to share in relation to this topic.

[QWithATray 0]

I was playing at a casino and a group from a wedding came and joined my table. Most of them had no idea how to play - one guy kept asking for another down card after the river!I called my friend over who was at another table and told him he had to get in on the "free money".I doubled up in about half an hour, he lost his whole stack. He didn't figure out that once these people called the flop they weren't getting away from their hand - basically take one shot at a bluff and then give up if you've got nothing.

[aucu 3]

I was playing at a casino and a group from a wedding came and joined my table. Most of them had no idea how to play - one guy kept asking for another down card after the river!I called my friend over who was at another table and told him he had to get in on the "free money".I doubled up in about half an hour, he lost his whole stack. He didn't figure out that once these people called the flop they weren't getting away from their hand - basically take one shot at a bluff and then give up if you've got nothing.

When ever I'm traveling to a convention where you have those "My name is" tags, I always look for a game, act drunk and get insta-peged as a fish.So much fun

[MasterLJ 0]

Ok, here it is.A good player will never call your all-in with a flush draw when you have a set. A bad player will. In the long run, you getting called is phenomenal. In the short-run, the bad player has a relatively significant chance at making a hand that beats you. Good players don't give you the luxury of this. Bad players do.So when you lose a $1k pot to a donk on a flush draw, it stings. But you need to thank them for the opportunity to double your money with tremendous odds.When the donk holds 10 3os, and they called your pf raise and the flop comes A 10 6 to your AK, they will also call you with pretty decent odds (25%ish) to suckout on you. It's hard to see it coming since you can't put a donk on a hand.I hope this makes sense because I am sauced.

[antistuff 0]

when people complain about bad players i dont think they usually mean that they want to play against a bunch of pros. i think they mean they just wish everyone would fold everytime they bet. very lazy if you ask me.

[7s7c 0]

Yes, similar to what LJ was saying....poor players are tough to move off hands so you may sometimes need a good run of cards to beat them in the short term, or in a tourney setting for that matter....in the long run they obviously make you mobney.

[BudBundy 0]

when people complain about bad players i dont think they usually mean that they want to play against a bunch of pros. i think they mean they just wish everyone would fold everytime they bet. very lazy if you ask me.

Selective memory.They only remember the times when they lost to a donk or when their top set on flop didn't hold up.

[shrimp4789 0]

when people complain about bad players i dont think they usually mean that they want to play against a bunch of pros. i think they mean they just wish everyone would fold everytime they bet. very lazy if you ask me.

I dont agree. Those bad players, will not fold to bluffs, they will chase a gut-shot to the river, they will call you down with any ace.......Theoritically, as long as you dont bluff them, you SHOULD win more in the long run.....however I think the main point of this thread is......since most people play with "average" players, who know the basics of what to do and what not to do, they find it hard to adapt.I completely agree with the other post here quoting Doyle. If you stay as basic as you can get, aka drop down to their level....play only solid hands, you should end up ontop....just dont become a donk......bad players are very obvious in their actions.....

[antistuff 0]

I dont agree. Those bad players, will not fold to bluffs, they will chase a gut-shot to the river, they will call you down with any ace.......Theoritically, as long as you dont bluff them, you SHOULD win more in the long run.....however I think the main point of this thread is......since most people play with "average" players, who know the basics of what to do and what not to do, they find it hard to adapt.I completely agree with the other post here quoting Doyle. If you stay as basic as you can get, aka drop down to their level....play only solid hands, you should end up ontop....just dont become a donk......bad players are very obvious in their actions.....

its not that they find it hard to adapt. its that they are lazy/impacient/just suck. they want everyone to call them down when they have the best hand everytime, and they want everyone to fold to thier bets when they have the worst hand.

[Pot Odds RAC 23]

its not that they find it hard to adapt. its that they are lazy/impacient/just suck. they want everyone to call them down when they have the best hand everytime, and they want everyone to fold to thier bets when they have the worst hand.

...and don't want anyone EVER to out draw them