A New "move" In Tournament Poker

[Vick12 0]

I know you are not questioning, but you do seem to think I do it a lot I guess. I raise like 95% of any hand I play that isn't in the blinds. I never limp early, and only limp late with huge hands or speculative hands. i don't do any one thing every time. If the table is very tight preflop, I will limp late with marginal. Most people in the tourneys I play are retarded, and probably aren't aware of my table image.EDIT: I only limp early with the small blind levels, when the blinds become important, you've seen me play, you know I don't limp.

MJI know you aren't limping very much, I think even 5% is a lot when u factor in the bolded portion above.When you get really good like me, you can raise 1 hand every 3 orbits...and then watch 4 people flat call and one person reraise their KJ!!!THAT'S Table Image!!!

[SavageHenry 0]

the open limp is looking for a re-reraise and the only time id try it is when there are some real aggressive players behind me who i know are more than likely to re-raise. it also has some value when there are lots of short stacks around who will push as long as they are the first raiser.Personally i think the best times to do are when you can afford to mess around - overwhelming chip leader - or you desperately need chips. Also its not so hot if you haven't limped much before because it looks a tad suspicious when a highly aggressive player limps in a raising position.

[SweetDaddyFreak 0]

Good example in my home game. I limp CO+1 and the CO limps and the Button limps as well. 5 to the flop of QQ7. I bet (78) and it gets raised and re-raised behind me. Eventually the button and the BB get all there chips in the middle on the turn as Button flips up AA and the BB shows the ol' Q9.He limped in a 5-person pot and couldnt get the hint the guy HAD TO HAVE TRIPS HERE! This was like the 3 hand of our tourney which has lots of play.The button's my best friend btw so i slapped him

[Mercury69 3]

CheckyI haven't been seeing this play too much, so I wouldn't worry about it. If people want to get their big hands cracked by limping mp...so be it.Now...I personally like this new double trap I am seeing. Let's say the button raises in a steal attempt. The SB on a short stack holding a vulnerable but strong hand like JJ just flat calls. Then the BB who is also short stacked wakes up with a hand like 99 and jams. The button folds his steal attempt and the SB instacalls and proudly shows his monster hand.You seen this move at all?

Seen it, done it some. It's a cointoss play, if you ask me, because you just don't know how strong the jammer's hand is, because there's no real betting history (barring previous reads).Also, I occasionally open limp with MIDDLE pairs but open limping with a premium pp is something I won't/can't do 99 and 44/100ths of the time. That means I do it more rare than my brother-in-law takes his steak. I hate getting caught by that move, because I've seen it, but not often enough for me to give it more than a passing thought.

[Bizzle 0]

Also, I occasionally open limp with MIDDLE pairs but open limping with a premium pp is something I won't/can't do 99 and 44/100ths of the time. That means I do it more rare than my brother-in-law takes his steak. I hate getting caught by that move, because I've seen it, but not often enough for me to give it more than a passing thought.

But minraising big PPs behind limpers is something you are willing to do?

[Painter567 0]

also, and unrelated: what does QFT mean? quite ****ing true?

QFT!Quoted for Truth!QFMFT!You figure it out!

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

You guys say this move is for "donks" yet it seems to bust all y'all. You really have to be worried about limps on the bubble. And I also think it's a great strat to limp with a big hand like aa or kk. 1) you're on the bubble, so the action is ( usually) much much tighter, so people are more likely than average to fold to yoru raise ( which is a disaster if you have aa, who gives a **** about the blinds)2) Altough action is tight, there are often people pushing/stealing with marginally strong hands, to win the blinds, so it's pretty likely for someone to view your limp as weakness, and try and steal the pot.3) If you're going for the limp/ rr, you're not playing passively/tightly at all. You're setting a trap. There's a big difference, don't be bitter because you keep falling into it.Unless you've been very active on the bubble, raising alot, I don't see much sense at all being the first in and raising with AA on the bubble. Sure, you risk losing a pot to some random blind hand. but you're much more likely to double up through an ace jack who thinks he has the nuts.You should be very wary of the first limper on the bubble. Very wary. even with a medium strong hand like aq or JJ, you should use caution. The chance they are limping with stregth is much higher on the bubble. I think you definatly should be wary of limping, and not so quick to label it "donk strat". It seems to have worked nicely on you.

[myenemy 0]

This happened to me last night! I was getting short, late in a MTT SuperSat and some goof limped early with QQ and I jammed with 99. It sucks but it shouldnt work on you in too many instances. Those being:1) You are short stacked.2) You are big stacked with a premium hand, and then you wont be in too much danger.3) You hold a monster. 4) Youre a bad player.I have Limp/raised occassionally vs. players I know I can stack that way but only with AA in the right temperature water.BigDMcGee:I think though that he is talking specifically about limp/calling. Not limp/raising, which I agree can be a very effective tool. Secondly, I give a F*** about the blinds late in MTT on the bubble as I suspect most do.

[OrzyVibe 0]

I've seen it recently and its rocked me badly in a few tournaments...twice when I flopped two pair. The guy slow played 9-9 and 10-10 from MP, I call from SB with K-7 and Q-8 and flop two pair each time. Of course, its all over but the crying for me and I'm on the outside looking in.

[TB17 0]

I wouldn't say it's that bad on the bubble, especially since more and people have been reading books and KNOW that people are trying to pick on the weak. But it's only good for early position when 7-8 people can raise before you...What's more annoying is when people do it with JJ and QQ in mid position. That just makes me sick. I got caught with TT when TWO people decided that JJ and QQ were trap worthy. In hindsight I should've just called...but still.

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

I wouldn't say it's that bad on the bubble, especially since more and people have been reading books and KNOW that people are trying to pick on the weak. But it's only good for early position when 7-8 people can raise before you...What's more annoying is when people do it with JJ and QQ in mid position. That just makes me sick. I got caught with TT when TWO people decided that JJ and QQ were trap worthy. In hindsight I should've just called...but still.

See, this is what makes the play so powerful. 10 10 is not the nuts, man. You guys have got to stop going for the bait. There are pleanty of pots you can steal, without ones with mutliple limpers. It's not annoying so much as a really strong play. I'd much prefer to limp with 10 10 in late position with two limpers in the pot.

[keith crime 8]

Limping with big pairs is dangerous for the limper ... and for you

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

Limping with big pairs is actually an aggressive move, not a weak move. Sure, in the hands of a scared fish, I suppose it could be weak, but you're gambling with your big pair that someone's going to make a pot commiting raise, and win a big pot. You're gambling with the blinds in the hopes that you'll win a big pot. It's dangerous, but it can pay dividends. Not usually something I employ, unless I have a medium stack and am playing tightly. If I have a short stack, I'll usually raise, and hope I get action 'ccause I'm a short stack. If I have a big stack, I'm usually raising a great deal, so I'll make my usually smallish raise, and hope some one comes over the top, 'cause when they do that, they will usually commit more chips than if I limped, and they raised. But with a medium stack, it's usually quite effective. The goal of a tourniment is to get all the chips. Sometimes you have to do this in non obvious ways.

[Scott3705 0]

If we're on the bubble and we're finding MP3-button positions raising 75%+, how would LRing big pairs be a bad thing?

[mtdesmoines 3]

ok, so granted, this "move" just hit me twice to take me from the top 10 to bubbling out of the 20k on the ongame network, so i'm probably thinking it happens more than it does, but i really have seen it upwards of 5 times in the last two days. and i don't fucking get it.why have people suddenly started thinking that open limping big pairs in mid position is a good move? it's getting me kinda psyched out, and i know that it's a terrible play, but it does occasionally spike a real player and knock him/her out of a tournament. like me. today. twice.it's also made more powerful by just check/calling down to all undercards. at least against me.is this something that others are seeing on a regular basis?

People do it because of that wacky M theory crap and the rampant strategy of pushing from the button, SB and BB when you're short stacked to steal blinds and gain play time. When that strategy becomes de rigor, why raise out of position with jacks or queens when some jerk with an K4 is going to automatically push all in because he's short stacked, then connects with his king. Some of us are NOT luckboxes. Never have been. Tournaments used to get sketchy AT the final table. Nowadays they can get sketchy any time someone gets shortstacked.

[Mercury69 3]

But minraising big PPs behind limpers is something you are willing to do?

Not really. Less than 5% of the time will I do that and it's often based on reads (no history, no min raise). More often, I'll re-raise (3-5x BB/pot) to get more info. If this is followed by someone re-raising me, it really depends on what pp I'm holding.

[Bizzle 0]

Not really. Less than 5% of the time will I do that and it's often based on reads (no history, no min raise). More often, I'll re-raise (3-5x BB/pot) to get more info. If this is followed by someone re-raising me, it really depends on what pp I'm holding.

Ummmmm...wait a second. You are saying that minraising big PPs behind limper(s) is ok "if you have a read"? What, do tell, does that read need to be to make this play correct in your mind?

[Suited_Up 2]

Ummmmm...wait a second. You are saying that minraising big PPs behind limper(s) is ok "if you have a read"? What, do tell, does that read need to be to make this play correct in your mind?

I'd go with "pray tell" or however it would be spelled. It's a bit smoother

[Bizzle 0]

I'd go with "pray tell" or however it would be spelled. It's a bit smoother

Pray tell, is it cheating to say that you have one hand and show a different one?

[Mercury69 3]

Ummmmm...wait a second. You are saying that minraising big PPs behind limper(s) is ok "if you have a read"? What, do tell, does that read need to be to make this play correct in your mind?

I'd go with "pray tell" or however it would be spelled. It's a bit smoother

Pray tell, is it cheating to say that you have one hand and show a different one?

Yes, the "pray" tell (or "prey"?). No, I'm not saying min raising behind a limper w/big PP is OK. What I'm saying is that it can be done, but 95%+ of the time SHOULD NOT be done. It's a move that puts you at risk, being invitational to those others coming in behind you. About the only time I do this is when I've seen a guy do it and, when he limps pr min raises in, I'll consider doing the same to try and set a trap. Yes, it goes wrong sometimes, but other times, you can bust the guy. Usually, unless I'm in a particulary donk-ish mood, a post flop or turn bet (size dependant) gives me enough info to know if I should continue with a hand or not. Yes, it's a risk. No, I hardlly ever use it. No, I don't approve or condone it. Bizzle, I appreciate you asking me tough questions on this, it really made me think. It's not like I'll never do it again, but clearly, it shows a liability in my play. Thanks!

[Canuckickstan 2]

I was deep in a PP tourney the other night and my table was very tight. Blinds folding to any raise and that sort of thing. Folded to me on the button with AA and I limp. Big blind flopped a set and played it to perfection taking half my stack. Fuck did I feel stupid and my table image went in the toilet.

[Bizzle 0]

Yes, the "pray" tell (or "prey"?). No, I'm not saying min raising behind a limper w/big PP is OK. What I'm saying is that it can be done, but 95%+ of the time SHOULD NOT be done. It's a move that puts you at risk, being invitational to those others coming in behind you. About the only time I do this is when I've seen a guy do it and, when he limps pr min raises in, I'll consider doing the same to try and set a trap. Yes, it goes wrong sometimes, but other times, you can bust the guy. Usually, unless I'm in a particulary donk-ish mood, a post flop or turn bet (size dependant) gives me enough info to know if I should continue with a hand or not. Yes, it's a risk. No, I hardlly ever use it. No, I don't approve or condone it. Bizzle, I appreciate you asking me tough questions on this, it really made me think. It's not like I'll never do it again, but clearly, it shows a liability in my play. Thanks!

Two things-First of all, the second post I had regarding talking about hands was directed towards Suited for reasons that he will understand.Secondly, I was all prepped to basically demolish the idea of minraising big pairs behind limpers....and then you basically said that yourself. You killed my argument. Pretty lame.In all honesty, you keep quoting a 95% number...this number should be 100%. Minraising big PPs behind limpers basically broadcasts that you have a massive hand and that you want the opponents to play against you, and it is not guaranteed to sniff out a bigger hand (see the QQ hand that ran into KK from the thread I linked earlier.)What would you raise to with 99 behind a limper? AQ? AK? Your goal needs to be to make your hand indistinguishable to other players, and force them to define their hands.

[Mercury69 3]

Two things-First of all, the second post I had regarding talking about hands was directed towards Suited for reasons that he will understand.Secondly, I was all prepped to basically demolish the idea of minraising big pairs behind limpers....and then you basically said that yourself. You killed my argument. Pretty lame .In all honesty, you keep quoting a 95% number...this number should be 100%. Minraising big PPs behind limpers basically broadcasts that you have a massive hand and that you want the opponents to play against you, and it is not guaranteed to sniff out a bigger hand (see the QQ hand that ran into KK from the thread I linked earlier.)What would you raise to with 99 behind a limper? AQ? AK? Your goal needs to be to make your hand indistinguishable to other players, and force them to define their hands.

First, I'm not sure what the "pretty lame" comment refers to, unless by agreeing with you, for the most part, I somehow rendered moot what you're saying. Second, while I agree with you in principle, theory and the Laws of Poker, there are so many people out there (myself to a certain extent, obviously) that don't or won't have a clue what min raising a limper means. You've got lots more experience than I have, so perhaps you'll concur, unless you play with people whose skill level is significantly higher than mine (which seems likely). Third, I subscribe to the notion of trying to get your opponent to think you have a hand other than what you are truly holding, so I think we agree there. Hey, what can I say? I've only been playing seriously for less than a year and dialogue like this can only help me, so thanks again and keep it coming.

[blakheart 3]

People may have read Supersystem II where Doyle talks about limping with big pairs in early position and be using that strategy incorrectly. The only time I could see limping a big pair is if I am at a very aggressive table and I could be certain to see a rasie behind me. But I would expect my opponents to be aware enough to notice a sudden limp and get suspicious, especially if the table is that aggressive. Limpers always make me nervous. I try to figure out early on if there limp means strength or weakness. But real donkeys limp lots of hands, but really loose players may limp lots of hands as well. I thinking limping big paris is almost always a mistake.Minraising limpers is a terrible play. It defines your hand very well. Last night, playing live cash game I limped behind 2 other limpers with 78 suited. The button minraised, I called. The flop came 783, I stacked him off with his JJ hand. I knew what he had, he had no idea what I had. terrible play.

[doublemeup 0]

Actually I've been seeing the min raise or min reraise with a big pair much more often than limping with a big pair.