Cheating And Bots And A Gray Line

[hblask 1]

I've been reading the Bots thread, and it mostly consists of "Bots are evil, the users should be killed" and "Bots are easy to beat, bring them on.."But it all brings up an interesting question. How automated does it have to be before you consider it cheating? One site said "player profiling" is illegal, but doesn't that make Poker Tracker illegal? What about Game Time? Nobody seems to have any problem with these. Or that calculator thing, I think it's called TexasCalculat'em or something like that. They are all aids to the player that would not be available to a B&M player, or to most other players.Then the line could get even grayer... what if I wrote a program that "strongly recommended" a play for me, based on the other players history and the cards I have? I'd still have to approve or disapprove every decision with a click, but it would instantly tell me all sorts of odds and statistics(this player raises in this situation 36% of the time, which is 4X the average for all players at this level, and the last three were bluffs, and your hand is a 63% favorite with that flop..) Is that a Bot? Or just an improvement to GameTime/Texas Calculat'em?For the record, I have no intention of doing this stuff, it's not why I play. I like the challenge of learning the game. I mostly don't even run GameTime because it distracts me from the play and from learning. But can you see my point? Is there some specific feature that needs to be added to make it illegal in your eyes? Is that "no human intervention?" Because then I could just have it tell me what to do, and multi-table around the clock working in shifts, and I just do what it tells me every time. How is this different than just having it do it for me? How is this different than programs that show real-time info on your opponents and current odds that seem to be widely accepted? And if someone writes a gray area bot, what will the online sites do about it?

[Brisco 0]

Some interesting questions. When I first got poker tracker I thought I would use it simply to examine my own play. It was great for that by the way and i have adjusted a few things I think for the better.However more and more when I encounter someone who is really active, or is doing something else suspicious I do find myself looking them up to see what i have on them.

[No_Neck 0]

depnds if a program give you information that is available to everyone else I think it is ok but if you have an advantage no one else has it is illegal.

[hblask 1]

depnds if a program give you information that is available to everyone else I think it is ok but if you have an advantage no one else has it is illegal.

Everyone else, who? Everyone who has been sitting in that room with you? Because PT has more than that, it's got every room you've ever sat in with those people? What if me and 10 friends share our PT databases? That info is *theoretically* available to anyone, if they had been playing in those rooms.Also, if it only uses the information from PokerTracker, (which is based on data the sites store on your computer), do you approve of an automated program that uses odds that anyone can computer and player history?I don't have an easy answer, so this is sort of a philosophical curiousity for me, as to where people think the line is. I suspect the final answer may be like the definition of indecent material that some courts use: I can't define it, but I know it when I see it. It just seems to me there is no obvious point where it becomes cheating. One end is cheating, the other end isn't. The middle... hmmmm. When does it warrant suspending the user's account and confiscating his winnings?

[Mercury69 3]

I have PokerTracker but haven't figured out how to really use it yet. I don't really take notes, but I think I should. I don't use skins or overlays or any other software that prompts me to remember something, becuase I'll never have that during a live poker match. I don't believe people should be using "tools" that aren't available in a "live" setting, therefore bots and HUD's giving %'s and such are OUT. Will it cost me money in the longrun? Maybe. Will this approach make me a better all-around poker player, able to adapt to any situation and setting? ****ing right. "Tools" are a crutch and, in some cases, an outright cheat. But that's just my opinion and I'm not about to go crusading.

[fleung22 1]

Everyone else, who? Everyone who has been sitting in that room with you? Because PT has more than that, it's got every room you've ever sat in with those people? What if me and 10 friends share our PT databases? That info is *theoretically* available to anyone, if they had been playing in those rooms.Also, if it only uses the information from PokerTracker, (which is based on data the sites store on your computer), do you approve of an automated program that uses odds that anyone can computer and player history?I don't have an easy answer, so this is sort of a philosophical curiousity for me, as to where people think the line is. I suspect the final answer may be like the definition of indecent material that some courts use: I can't define it, but I know it when I see it. It just seems to me there is no obvious point where it becomes cheating. One end is cheating, the other end isn't. The middle... hmmmm. When does it warrant suspending the user's account and confiscating his winnings?

Interesting point.I think I like the "if it's information everyone can get" angle.The database is based on information that you've gathered from playing those opponents (no sharing here).If I play in a B&M the database is my memory. No one would accuse me of cheating just because I am more familiar with the usual players vs. a newbie.If somebody has more handhistory it's because they've played with more opponents.This is definitely a tough one. ...as for the odds calculator...it doesn't really bother me. I don't use one but I'd suspect that most of the fish would make the same mistakes even with that assistance. Hell, some donkeys would make the same mistakes if they could see your hole cards!

[doubleatrain 0]

What if me and 10 friends share our PT databases?

Party Poker's terms of service seem to suggest that anything offering an unfair advantage (emphasis on the unfair) is what they're trying to prohibit. It's outlined here http://www.partypoker.com/about_us/game_fa..._advantage.html and while that still leaves the sharing of PT databases as somewhat of a gray area, it does clear up things like simply using PT and Gametime/PAHUD a little bit. It also explains their stance on datamining which I was interested to know about.

[fleung22 1]

Party Poker's terms of service seem to suggest that anything offering an unfair advantage (emphasis on the unfair) is what they're trying to prohibit. It's outlined here http://www.partypoker.com/about_us/game_fa..._advantage.html and while that still leaves the sharing of PT databases as somewhat of a gray area, it does clear up things like simply using PT and Gametime/PAHUD a little bit. It also explains their stance on datamining which I was interested to know about.

Sharing databases is definitely a nono.If memory serves me right then there's a note when you request your handhistory that says it's not to be shared with anyone.

[doubleatrain 0]

Sharing databases is definitely a nono.If memory serves me right then there's a note when you request your handhistory that says it's not to be shared with anyone.

That's what I thought and was actually the reason why I was at Party's site looking through their terms but didn't look hard enough to find where it said that. Either way, though, that puts a gray area somewhere, as that would then suggest that posting HHs on an internet forum isn't necessarily acceptable.

[hblask 1]

Party Poker's terms of service seem to suggest that anything offering an unfair advantage (emphasis on the unfair) is what they're trying to prohibit. It's outlined here http://www.partypoker.com/about_us/game_fa..._advantage.html and while that still leaves the sharing of PT databases as somewhat of a gray area, it does clear up things like simply using PT and Gametime/PAHUD a little bit. It also explains their stance on datamining which I was interested to know about.

Interesting link, and I guess it confirms my original question. Their answer seems to be, if it walks like a duck, and talks like a duck.....An interesting aside: one of their key tests seems to be that the program is concealed from other users. Does that mean that you could write a bot that every third hand or so spit out the message: "In accordance with Party Poker's terms of use, this message is to inform you that this player, "MrBotMan", is an automated program written to play poker without human intervention. This may affect your strategy and/or desire to play in this room."Would they consider that OK? Would the people in this forum consider that OK?I guess the biggest problem with it is that they may overrun all rooms if they are any good, making the site useless to people who wish not to play against them.

[fleung22 1]

Interesting link, and I guess it confirms my original question. Their answer seems to be, if it walks like a duck, and talks like a duck.....An interesting aside: one of their key tests seems to be that the program is concealed from other users. Does that mean that you could write a bot that every third hand or so spit out the message: "In accordance with Party Poker's terms of use, this message is to inform you that this player, "MrBotMan", is an automated program written to play poker without human intervention. This may affect your strategy and/or desire to play in this room."Would they consider that OK? Would the people in this forum consider that OK?I guess the biggest problem with it is that they may overrun all rooms if they are any good, making the site useless to people who wish not to play against them.

You know what? I WOULD be okay with that. If I knew the player was a bot right off the bat the whole issue wouldn't bother me nearly as much.In fact, since some bot makers consider it a hobby why not have a poker bot section where only bots play other bots!

[Royal_Tour 0]

Maybe its just me, but i dont get what all the poop talk is about?databases, and bots, and trackers, and calculators... pffA lot of you guys shouldnt be poker players.seriously. No offence, but sit me down anywhere.I'd love to sit across from Ivey, and Mortensen, and DN, well., i already sat on his right once before without breaking a sweat ;)You dont have to thin you're thebest, but you should think you're always learning and getting better stoping for no one, until you know you're the best.Its hellmuthian but its what you gotta do

[nosoul 0]

I don't think using HUD things and the calculators are any different than a bot, really. The computer is doing everything for you except actually clicking the action button.People get all in a tizzy about steroids and performance enhancers for other things. Using PokerTracker and things like that are basically steroids for your memory. You can't say "I know this and that about this player." No, you don't. Your computer does. You barely recognize the other player's screen name, let alone remember how they play.You could also use everybody else's argument against them to say that bots should be allowed.. It's not an unfair advantage because everybody can get one. It's no different than PokerTracker and the HUD software. Whether you choose to use it or not, it's your decision. It may or may not help you win more. But the fact is, in both cases, it's no longer just you playing against the other players. It's you and a computer. Just in varying degrees.

[UncleHoot 0]

You know what? I WOULD be okay with that. If I knew the player was a bot right off the bat the whole issue wouldn't bother me nearly as much.In fact, since some bot makers consider it a hobby why not have a poker bot section where only bots play other bots!

I wonder if that's why www.partypokerbots.com takes you right back to www.PartyPoker.com. Perhaps it is something that they may consider, long term.

[hblask 1]

Maybe its just me, but i dont get what all the poop talk is about?databases, and bots, and trackers, and calculators... pffA lot of you guys shouldnt be poker players.seriously. No offence, but sit me down anywhere.

The biggest problem with this theory is that everybody has to start somewhere. I'm 99.999% sure you were not a winning player in your first session(s). If half the players in the low money rooms are polished bots, beginners have no way to get a foot in the door, because they are likely to go broke before they can become profitable. Go to a beginner room, and think about how hard it would be to write a bot to beat them. But some of those people will go on to become excellent players. But not if they just get bent over and raped every time they enter the room. The learning process requires places to practice against equivalent competition, and an infestation of bots could eliminate that. Soon, all the people at the bottom give up and it's just YOU and people better than you, until you too give up.Yes, they could go to B&M rooms, but the learning curve there is much more expensive. For example, the cheapest B&M tables near me are $2/$4. Even after learning online in .10 and .25 rooms, my first visit there was expensive, just because it's a whole different flow and different focus. 20 times as expensive is too much for most people. If you are as good as you claim (and I have no reason to doubt it), you should WANT clean rooms for beginners to find out if they have what it takes. That money eventually bubbles up to the top levels.

[No_Neck 0]

Everyone else, who? Everyone who has been sitting in that room with you? Because PT has more than that, it's got every room you've ever sat in with those people? What if me and 10 friends share our PT databases? That info is *theoretically* available to anyone, if they had been playing in those rooms.Also, if it only uses the information from PokerTracker, (which is based on data the sites store on your computer), do you approve of an automated program that uses odds that anyone can computer and player history?I don't have an easy answer, so this is sort of a philosophical curiousity for me, as to where people think the line is. I suspect the final answer may be like the definition of indecent material that some courts use: I can't define it, but I know it when I see it. It just seems to me there is no obvious point where it becomes cheating. One end is cheating, the other end isn't. The middle... hmmmm. When does it warrant suspending the user's account and confiscating his winnings?

yeah but if you are a freak that can just rememeber every hand you have ever played than you would be in the same boat. Cheating is giving yourself an extra edge, exchanging databases with other people is an extra edge. There is a difference.

[hblask 1]

yeah but if you are a freak that can just rememeber every hand you have ever played than you would be in the same boat. Cheating is giving yourself an extra edge, exchanging databases with other people is an extra edge. There is a difference.

So is your "line in the sand" that you can use the computer to process information however you want, as long as it only uses hands you were personally involved in? (That seems like a reasonable position, just curious if I am understanding you.) I think at some point the online sites are going to have to start drawing lines in the sand, instead of their current "feels like cheating" standard.

[DDiabolical 0]

Programmers don't want their bots to play other bots, they want to play against the ocean of fish like you and I.Their end goal is to make money, not prove that they've made a great bot.

[Mercury69 3]

It's sad, but this may very well signal the low point in online poker. I think all bots should be illegal.I think all HUD's should be illegal. What's next? Rayban's with an HUD you can wear at your local B&M?I think any AI aid should be illegal, at least while playing the game. Afterwards, why not enjoy some statistical analysis?And, by illegal, I mean against the TOC of any, all and every site. Why should I play against some asshat who's multitabling with bots and HUD's and such? I play for fun and, hopefully, some money. I do it with my own sweat and blood and time and energy. If there are those of you who don't want to play a game honorably, then **** you. I'm sick of people who cheat, exploit and AI their way to victory. That's not a win, you ****ing *****, it's called cheating.

[DMBroller 0]

It's sad, but this may very well signal the low point in online poker. I think all bots should be illegal.I think all HUD's should be illegal. What's next? Rayban's with an HUD you can wear at your local B&M?I think any AI aid should be illegal, at least while playing the game. Afterwards, why not enjoy some statistical analysis?And, by illegal, I mean against the TOC of any, all and every site. Why should I play against some asshat who's multitabling with bots and HUD's and such? I play for fun and, hopefully, some money. I do it with my own sweat and blood and time and energy. If there are those of you who don't want to play a game honorably, then **** you. I'm sick of people who cheat, exploit and AI their way to victory. That's not a win, you ****ing *****, it's called cheating.

[psujohn 0]

PT and GT+/PAHUD are really only making the online closer to the real world. In a B&M you're going to see the same people over and over again and they're going to play for several hours at a time. Online you don't have a face to associate things with, people play for far shorter periods and there's a vastly larger pool of people playing. Besides the fact that online you can multi-table and do other things (like post on FCP) while playing.Now anything that gets into datamining, sharing data, etc gets into more of a gray area. You don't think it's unethical or cheating to call a friend and say "The guy in the NWP hat is a donk" do you? Or "that guy that looks like count chocula has a habit of bluffing limped pots pre flop". Sure you don't say such things at the table but away from the table ...Once you get to any form of AI I think you're clearly crossing the line into cheating. It's akin to phoning a friend in the middle of a hand while at a B&M. It's using the programmer's knowlege instead of your own.BTW, where does consulting a starting hand chart during a hand fit in this? Its low tech and not necessarily something you couldn't do at a B&M but still seems borderline.

[GWCGWC 83]

I mostly don't even run GameTime because it distracts me from the play and from learning.

If you have it, use it.

I don't think using HUD things and the calculators are any different than a bot, really. The computer is doing everything for you except actually clicking the action button.

HUD or gametime+ doesn't do anything but give you information that is already available if you are a savant and can remember the actions of each player for each hand. All it does is lay out the tendencies of the players, it can give you tons of info, but with that info, you have to decide what would be the best action to take.

[goose 0]

Maybe its just me, but i dont get what all the poop talk is about?databases, and bots, and trackers, and calculators... pffA lot of you guys shouldnt be poker players.seriously. No offence, but sit me down anywhere.I'd love to sit across from Ivey, and Mortensen, and DN, well., i already sat on his right once before without breaking a sweat ;)You dont have to thin you're thebest, but you should think you're always learning and getting better stoping for no one, until you know you're the best.Its hellmuthian but its what you gotta do

I think you're missing one of the main problems that would come with an increased proliferation of tracking devices and automated play - it scares off the average player.While someone like yourself, or even myself, isn't overly concerned about bot play or dataming etc., especially when we can target those accounts that are doing it, it is very bad for the image of online poker, and could potentially influence the prosperity of online poker as a whole. If these types of things become as widespread as they have the potential to be, it will detter your average joe from taking $200 and depositing in an account to have some fun with. He'll either save the money or take it to a B&M casino - either way we all lose. It means less players, a higher percentage of skilled/automated players, smaller prize pools, and increased competition, none of which is good for regular players such as ourselves.This may not be THAT important to people such as myself who play almost as a hobby, but for those of you that derive a substantial portion of your income, or all of it, from online play, this should at the very least mildly concern you.

[cubbybri 0]

BTW, where does consulting a starting hand chart during a hand fit in this? Its low tech and not necessarily something you couldn't do at a B&M but still seems borderline.

I use PokerTracker and to me, it seems these are no different from having a starting hands chart or a pot odds cheatsheet sitting by you in a B&M. Since no one said anything to me at the casino when I used these things(a while ago now but I did) my assumption is that I could use things like a poker calculator or Pokertracker as well.If they said it was cheating, I would not use it. I do not htink it is unethical as I still have to make my own decisions.Bots may be programmed with your decisions but you are not the one making the decisions in action, your bots are doing the work now while while you're touching your naughty bits who knows where.I have respect for those who can make $ multitabling on their own but if you have a bunch of bots running around while you sleep, I don't think it is right.Actually I would think it was right if we did know about up front as a few previous posters have stated.If the rules say you can't do it, you're cheating. That's really what it comes down to. Customers have the knowledge that bots are cheating so there should be no bots.If sites said they would allow bots than let there be bots.Finally, bots aren't good for the game but the online sites will get their rake in any case. Bots use money just like I do so we'll just have to see how things turn out.Ramble Ramble, yawn.I've said too much.Two cents.

[jcpoker 0]

we just developed a new version of our online odds calculator Pokulator Pro that also tracks the tables you are playing at. it does not tell anyone how to play, when to bet, or how much to bet etc. it just says your winning % vs every other hand, your odds to make each hand, what hands have the advantage against yours, and also gives stats for everyone at the table including you. so, these stats are easily available to everyone at the table, our program just compiles the stats in a useful way to help players make informed decisions and learn the odds as they play.because we only track the table that you are sitting at, it is no different than if you used a pen and paper to record the hands played as you sit at the table. therefore, we don't believe that using pokulator pro is an "unfair" advantage to our users, but it is much easier than manually recording hand histories or calculating odds. Try Pokulator Pro for freewe are also very curious to hear how other players feel about using calculators/table trackers or what other stats they would like to see tracked so keep this thread going and we can implement any suggestions.