so it's cool to laydown big hands now, right? wtf!

[alf13 0]

I was just referring to your obvious folds.

what about them? I FOLDED KK in those OBVIOUS folds...thus...why I titled them OBVIOUS folds.

[Royal_Tour 0]

I was just referring to your obvious folds.

what about them? I FOLDED KK in those OBVIOUS folds...thus...why I titled them OBVIOUS folds.

You suck alf

[joker12676 0]

Actually I was agreeing with you Alf if your read is one of your opponents has aces and its 2 players all in in a tournament why would you not fold.

[Socrates 0]

I had a guy fold KK preflop to me in a $100 buy-in NL game.   It really censored me off.   I actually knew that he folded a huge hand, too, either QQ or KK.    I raised to $4 preflop with AA and keep in mind that I was raising a lot of hands so there is no reason for him to believe that I had AA.    I was raising like 15 % of my hands at least.  He raises to $20folded around to meI raise all-in for $150He has $150, too and he thinks and thinks and then folds.I say in chat:   you are the only one that I know that will fold KKHe says in chat:  what did you haveI say:   I can't believe you folded KKThen he says:   did you have AA ?It just bothered me.

Well, he over bet the pot retardedly, and you still went over the top. I doublt you were reraising retardedly on %15 of your hands.

I have to agree - looks like he made a great play here seeing you were blowing your wad so easily.

[jverkaik 0]

I noticed this "fad" recently on a lot of the boards.  Laying down big hands is now the cool thing to do.  Folding KK preflop?  Folding the top fullhouse on the flop?  Are you kidding me?Unless you see the other players cards, folding KK preflop is ALWAYS wrong mathmatically (unless it's a satelite situation).  You're about 22-1 to not run into AA, and even if you do, you will beat AA 20% of the time.  So I don't care what tell you have or the guy only reraises with aces bull people always claim.  If you're folding KK preflop, you're weak and will never beat a game badly if you're affraid to play that hand.I've asked every pro I've had a chance to talk to, just to see what they say(I don't need their justification, just wanted to see what they'd say).  I've asked Gus Hansen, Hoyt Corkins, Moneymaker, Shawn Rice and many others....they all said the same thing....the only time to fold KK preflop is NEVER!Okay, the folding the top fullhouse because you think someone has quads was the dumbest post I've seen in months.  If you're worried about losing $85 in a 1/2 game, you don't need to play 1/2, it's to big for you.

I've folded KK preflop.Oh P.S. 22-1 is wrong., KK vs AA is very slim.just thought i'd help ya out

Are you sure it's wrong? 220-1 that any random person at a table will have AA, but there are 9 of them (assumption), bringing it pretty close to 22-1.

[dball1981 0]

OK well here's a situation that happened to me at the Borgata a few weeks ago. This kid comes and sits down at my 2-5 NL table. Within the first 2 hours he picks up AA 3 times, KK 2 times and they hold up everytime and he runs his stack up from about 400 to around 1200 when this hand came up.I'm UTG +2. I raise to 25. It folds to him on the button. He reraises to 75. Now at this point I know that he has a monster because he has been playing ABC poker since he sat down....always reraising with big hands then pushing hard on the flop and this is obvious to the table. So it comes back to me and I reraise to 300 leaving me about 350. He thinks for a while, asks me how much I have left, then says, "i'll put you all in." I immediately call and flip up AA and he obviously shows KK. My question here is a lot of you say you should never fold them preflop but I think the situation determines it. Obviously I knew he had a monster. What hand am I going to come back over the top with? I think this should have been an easy fold for him. Thoughts?

[alf13 0]

You suck alf

not as good as you though.

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

I noticed this "fad" recently on a lot of the boards.  Laying down big hands is now the cool thing to do.  Folding KK preflop?  Folding the top fullhouse on the flop?  Are you kidding me?Unless you see the other players cards, folding KK preflop is ALWAYS wrong mathmatically (unless it's a satelite situation).  You're about 22-1 to not run into AA, and even if you do, you will beat AA 20% of the time.  So I don't care what tell you have or the guy only reraises with aces bull people always claim.  If you're folding KK preflop, you're weak and will never beat a game badly if you're affraid to play that hand.I've asked every pro I've had a chance to talk to, just to see what they say(I don't need their justification, just wanted to see what they'd say).  I've asked Gus Hansen, Hoyt Corkins, Moneymaker, Shawn Rice and many others....they all said the same thing....the only time to fold KK preflop is NEVER!Okay, the folding the top fullhouse because you think someone has quads was the dumbest post I've seen in months.  If you're worried about losing $85 in a 1/2 game, you don't need to play 1/2, it's to big for you.

I've folded KK preflop.Oh P.S. 22-1 is wrong., KK vs AA is very slim.just thought i'd help ya out

Are you sure it's wrong? 220-1 that any random person at a table will have AA, but there are 9 of them (assumption), bringing it pretty close to 22-1.

Yeah, but it's done with 50 cards, not 52, since you start with kk, so it's more like 1-19

[iggymcfly 0]

Actually, some of these hands are possible to fold, just not in the situation listed.I had a situation the other day, where I had top full house, (with two pair on the board, and hitting my kicker), me and my opponent both had 200+ big blinds, and my opponent moved in on me.In retrospect, I really think I should have folded it, but I didnt and I cost myself a huge pot.Likewise, I'm pretty sure that if you're similarly deep-stacked, and there's two all-ins, you might be able to assume that one of them has AA.However, if you're folding either of these hands with only something like 100 big blinds in front of you, you're usually making a huge mistake.Remember, DN said he's only folded KK preflop once in his life, and the time that he did, he was wrong. (His opponent at the time was overplaying QQ.)

[Razor 0]

OK well here's a situation that happened to me at the Borgata a few weeks ago.  This kid comes and sits down at my 2-5 NL table.  Within the first 2 hours he picks up AA 3 times, KK 2 times and they hold up everytime and he runs his stack up from about 400 to around 1200 when this hand came up.I'm UTG +2.  I raise to 25.  It folds to him on the button.  He reraises to 75.  Now at this point I know that he has a monster because he has been playing ABC poker since he sat down....always reraising with big hands then pushing hard on the flop and this is obvious to the table.  So it comes back to me and I reraise to 300 leaving me about 350.  He thinks for a while, asks me how much I have left, then says, "i'll put you all in."  I immediately call and flip up AA and he obviously shows KK.  My question here is a lot of you say you should never fold them preflop but I think the situation determines it.  Obviously I knew he had a monster.  What hand am I going to come back over the top with?  I think this should have been an easy fold for him.  Thoughts?

Well, it wouldn't be easy for me, especially if I'd been dealt AA - 3 times and this was my third time getting KK's and until now they've all held up. My thinking would be more along the line of the great night I'm having, and how much more money I'm going to make with these KKs. And, if he's run his stack up to 1200 from 400, then there are ppl at this table that are calling his KK's with weaker hands. Unless he's seen you lay down big hands all night, he's going to get all your money in here.

[sanemancrazywrld 0]

I noticed this "fad" recently on a lot of the boards.  Laying down big hands is now the cool thing to do.  Folding KK preflop?  Folding the top fullhouse on the flop?  Are you kidding me?Unless you see the other players cards, folding KK preflop is ALWAYS wrong mathmatically (unless it's a satelite situation).  You're about 22-1 to not run into AA, and even if you do, you will beat AA 20% of the time.  So I don't care what tell you have or the guy only reraises with aces bull people always claim.  If you're folding KK preflop, you're weak and will never beat a game badly if you're affraid to play that hand.I've asked every pro I've had a chance to talk to, just to see what they say(I don't need their justification, just wanted to see what they'd say).  I've asked Gus Hansen, Hoyt Corkins, Moneymaker, Shawn Rice and many others....they all said the same thing....the only time to fold KK preflop is NEVER!Okay, the folding the top fullhouse because you think someone has quads was the dumbest post I've seen in months.  If you're worried about losing $85 in a 1/2 game, you don't need to play 1/2, it's to big for you.

Post of the week. I feel like I've been taking crazy pills. I can't believe the stuff I've been hearing lately on this forum about "big laydowns' bunch of hellmuth wanna bes..

If that was the post of the week, you really ahve been taking crazy pills.

[iCtrl 0]

Thats why hes the greatest in the world...He can dodge bullets baby.

[Advanex13 0]

So it's wrong to lay down a hand when you know you're beat? Excuse me, but I thought that was the point of playing poker. Playing to win...not playing to lose.

[trumpman84 0]

.25/.50UTG opens for $4 which is a huge raise for the game. Button re-raises to $7. I'm on the BB with KK and re-raise to $22. Now, me and UTG both have 2.5x the buy-in stacks and he pushes all in for $100 more in a .25/.50 game. Button folds, and I call. UTG has JJ to lose a $250 dollar pot in .25/.50. So, in response, no, i don't fold KK preflop... I play it as if I had aces.

[CaneBrain 95]

I had someone fold KK to my AA in the biggest cash game I ever played.I was playing 5/10 NL at a club in Manhattan. I am in MP. Villain was UTG. I had about 2500 in chips. He was big stack with about 4400.He raises to 60 preflop. A confusing bet. so I decide to really fast play my aces and I raise to 275. He thinks and thinks and thinks and finally just calls.Flop comes 8 5 3 rainbow. He bets out 800. I cant see him having a set so I raise all-in. He ponders and ponders and ponders and finally mucks his Kings face up. I was kinda mad but I respected the good laydown. He knew me well from the club and he also knew I usually played 1/2 NL not 5/10 NL so he figured I had to have the aces.I have never folded KK preflop. I have also never had KK when someone else had AA playing live. I must be lucky I guess. Online I have only had it happen 3 times and I outdrew the aces twice lol.

[scatory2 0]

I don't think laying down a huge hand is a winning play. I'd be insane. But you do realize you have lots to factor in when you have a huge hand. Like is if its the second best hand. If I get information through tells, what the board tells me and what my guts are telling me that Im beat, (albeit I only did this once in such an extreme situation) I'll lay it down

[alf13 0]

I don't think laying down a huge hand is a winning play.  I'd be insane.  But you do realize you have lots to factor in when you have a huge hand.  Like is if  its the second best hand.  If I get information through tells, what the board tells me and what my guts are telling me that Im beat, (albeit I only did this once in such an extreme situation) I'll lay it down

GOD DAMN IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!A "I am fukin' strong" tell could mean that other idiot had J2,J3,J4, J5,J6,J7,J8,J9,JT,QJ,KJ,AJ, KK, AA.... The ****ing guy could have T9 or KT sooooooooted and have a four flush with an open ended straight draw and give you the same tell.But you deduce that this guy MUST have JJ...get the fuk outta here!

[Royal_Tour 0]

.25/.50UTG opens for $4 which is a huge raise for the game.  Button re-raises to $7.  I'm on the BB with KK and re-raise to $22.  Now, me and UTG both have 2.5x the buy-in stacks and he pushes all in for $100 more in a .25/.50 game.  Button folds, and I call.  UTG has JJ to lose a $250 dollar pot in .25/.50.  So, in response, no, i don't fold KK preflop... I play it as if I had aces.

Uhh, using a complete idiot as an example doesnt help your case.

[benhoug 0]

From the WPT event going on right now.Date / Time: 2005-11-14 21:09:00Title: Hasan Habib Lays Down CowboysLog: Hasan Habib raised preflop to $6,000 and Chris McCormick pushed all in. Thomas Fuller contemplated the call for a short while before pushing all in over the top. Habib, almost immediately mucks his kings face up.With Habib out of the hand, Fuller immediately shows his A-A, clearly the hand that Habib put him on. McCormick is in a dominated position with his A-K. The board fails to produce a miracle, and McCormick is eliminated.Meanwhile, Habib averted disaster with a big laydown. Even after taking a minor hit, Habib is still sitting on a healthy stack of $75,000 in chips.

[Royal_Tour 0]

From the WPT event going on right now.Date / Time: 2005-11-14 21:09:00Title: Hasan Habib Lays Down CowboysLog:  Hasan Habib raised preflop to $6,000 and Chris McCormick pushed all in. Thomas Fuller contemplated the call for a short while before pushing all in over the top. Habib, almost immediately mucks his kings face up.With Habib out of the hand, Fuller immediately shows his A-A, clearly the hand that Habib put him on. McCormick is in a dominated position with his A-K. The board fails to produce a miracle, and McCormick is eliminated.Meanwhile, Habib averted disaster with a big laydown. Even after taking a minor hit, Habib is still sitting on a healthy stack of $75,000 in chips.

thats impossible.The OP said he talked to all pro's and they never fold KK, i mean comon, he talked to Moneymaker!! MONEYMAKER!!!!!

[alf13 0]

From the WPT event going on right now.Date / Time: 2005-11-14 21:09:00Title: Hasan Habib Lays Down CowboysLog:  Hasan Habib raised preflop to $6,000 and Chris McCormick pushed all in. Thomas Fuller contemplated the call for a short while before pushing all in over the top. Habib, almost immediately mucks his kings face up.With Habib out of the hand, Fuller immediately shows his A-A, clearly the hand that Habib put him on. McCormick is in a dominated position with his A-K. The board fails to produce a miracle, and McCormick is eliminated.Meanwhile, Habib averted disaster with a big laydown. Even after taking a minor hit, Habib is still sitting on a healthy stack of $75,000 in chips.

THUS...an obvious fold.....I bet Habib calls the allin.....once the other guy goes allin...things changed.

[blakheart 3]

I've asked every pro I've had a chance to talk to, just to see what they say(I don't need their justification, just wanted to see what they'd say).  I've asked Gus Hansen, Hoyt Corkins, Moneymaker, Shawn Rice and many others....they all said the same thing....the only time to fold KK preflop is NEVER!Okay, the folding the top fullhouse because you think someone has quads was the dumbest post I've seen in months.  If you're worried about losing $85 in a 1/2 game, you don't need to play 1/2, it's to big for you.

Phil Gordon's latest book gives one specific spot where he folds kk preflop. If he opens raise, he gets reraised, he comes back over the top, and gets reraised back. He figures a pro will not make the fourth raise without having aces. However, that is against pros, in a tournament situation wher going broke is terminal. Me- I go broke every tme. And I can not figure out how I could every lay down top full house.

[benhoug 0]

Phil Gordon's latest book gives one specific spot where he folds kk preflop. If he opens raise, he gets reraised, he comes back over the top, and gets reraised back.  He figures a pro will not make the fourth raise without having aces. However, that is against pros, in a tournament situation wher going broke is terminal. Me- I go broke every tme. And I can not figure out how I could every lay down top full house.

Wasn't he involved in a pot at the Main Event a few years back where some big name pro raised w/ QQ, Gordon re-raised w/ KK and Hellmuth moved in w/ AA and both players folded??? Then Hellmuth went on to complain how he never got paid off w/ his Aces... I think I remember reading somthing about that.

[CrackofmyACE 1]

I noticed this "fad" recently on a lot of the boards.  Laying down big hands is now the cool thing to do.  Folding KK preflop?  Folding the top fullhouse on the flop?  Are you kidding me?Unless you see the other players cards, folding KK preflop is ALWAYS wrong mathmatically (unless it's a satelite situation).  You're about 22-1 to not run into AA, and even if you do, you will beat AA 20% of the time.  So I don't care what tell you have or the guy only reraises with aces bull people always claim.  If you're folding KK preflop, you're weak and will never beat a game badly if you're affraid to play that hand.I've asked every pro I've had a chance to talk to, just to see what they say(I don't need their justification, just wanted to see what they'd say).  I've asked Gus Hansen, Hoyt Corkins, Moneymaker, Shawn Rice and many others....they all said the same thing....the only time to fold KK preflop is NEVER!Okay, the folding the top fullhouse because you think someone has quads was the dumbest post I've seen in months.  If you're worried about losing $85 in a 1/2 game, you don't need to play 1/2, it's to big for you.

Post of the week. I feel like I've been taking crazy pills. I can't believe the stuff I've been hearing lately on this forum about "big laydowns' bunch of hellmuth wanna bes..

But Phil Hellmuth dodges bullets baby

[blueodum 0]

All this talk about folding monster hands is indicative of an important type of error, one that many mediocre players commit.And that is, to put your opponent on a SINGLE hand, rather than a RANGE of HANDS, assigning a percentage according to the probability of holding each hand within that range.It's possible to narrow a range down to a single hand after the river, based on the actions of your opponent throughout the hand. You would have to know your opponent well, but it is sometimes correct to make monster laydowns after all the cards have come out.But on the flop, you have less information, and almost always not enough to narrow the range to a single hand. I can't recall DN, who is one of the best arround at narrowing likely ranges, ever giving an example when he was able to narrow an opponents hand range on the flop to a single holding when he was heads up on the flop.Yes, he did fold KK preflop recently because he was sure, because of the preflop action, that his opponent had AA. He said that this was the first time he had ever done this - and he ended up being wrong.It's easier to lay down big hands in a multiway pot, obviously. For example laying down the straight when the action almost guarantees that someone has made a flush.