poll related to dn's kk laydown

[monkeywicked 0]

This poll is in reply to:

"First time in my life I've folded KK preflop." A player raises to 225 to call, then the button makes it 1000, DN then makes it 3000 from the BB. Then the button proceeds to go all-in and Daniel has 10400 left and decides to fold. The guy turned over QQ.

AND

Point of the story is this...DN will be fine....90% of players have AA in that spot....

wrong. in a big tourney it's more like <10% have AA in that spot, not 90%.

[turd ferguson 1]

I'm only moving in with AA/KK right there. No question.

[Royal_Tour 0]

what Crowtrobot doesnt realise is not the % for odds purposes. its the play in generalPushing with Q's is a real balls to the wall play there.He was re-raised. He doesnt have any info except either A- DN wnats that pot, or B- DN has a big hand.with QQ - facing a raise, i'd probably re-raise DN and see where i was. He took a huge chance that DN didnt hold A's with his re-raise in that spot, and decided to push.I'm sure he thought he would be up against AK at best.sooo.. my views, this wasnt a well excuted semi-bluff, but rather a mistake made by the other player.

[majorleag 0]

I don't think it is quite that cut and dry. There are so many more players today of different calibers that you can't automatically assume that they are all good enough to know when to push and when not to.There are so many bad players that they could just as easily be pushing with just about any holdings.Me, I am not going to go all in necessarily at that point, since many hands beat me and I would like to see the flop and then make the decision but many people that don't know better will push all in. I have and I am sure many people here have seen people go all in, in very similar circumstances with pocket fours, 8's etc. etc.You cannot assume that everytime someone does it they have Aces. This is a little different analogy but, I find it really amusing how many times when there is an Ace on the flop, if you are in position and bet regardless of what you have people will be scared of the Ace and fold. To a great extent it is psychological, people see the Ace and if they don't hold one they automatically assume that you do.If you have kings, then pre-flop only the aces beat you.Every other hand that this guy could push with you are ahead pre-flop.Again just my opinion but I will either go broke right there with the kings or put myself in a much better position early.I certainly don't want to go broke with Kings versus Aces, but at the same time if you lay Kings down pre-flop every time, I don't think that works either long term.

[RayPowers 0]

I think with AA or KK I push. With everything else in that list (down to AK suited) I call the reraise to see the flop and base my play from there, knowing I have position. It seems silly to go broke on anything less than AA or KK there. Ray

[CodyHartman 0]

DN's supposed to have AA or KK when putting the 3rd raise in. The guy rerraises him, gutsy for sure, but it sends a message to DN. I think DN made the right play, and that other guy probably busted not too much later on.btw I voted for AA or KK

[Poker4Me2005 0]

The poll and alot of the posts dont take chip stacks into account. DN only had 10k left after his reraise with KK and 3k in the pot. What if the guy with QQ had 35k or more? Considering they started with 20k its a possibilty. If thats true the guy with QQ wasnt going to "go broke" by losing the hand and was instead putting DN to the test with a hand he felt was a coinflip or considerable favorite, which is usually the case. I think given DNs style and the fact that he's a recognizable pro tends to get amatuer players to play alot differently with him in general. I know I'd probably reraise all-in with QQ vs DN if I was in that guys position(especially if I had considerably more chips than DN) primarily because I dont want to get outplayed post-flop. DN said it best himself "First time in my life I've folded KK preflop." Its the first time you've done it because its not a good decision, especially in his situation given the facts. DN did fold KK even though hes shortstacked and committed nearly 25% of his remaining chips preflop. I think he's a great player, he just made a mistake. Happens to everyone sometimes.

[monkeywicked 0]

i'm a bit surprised that QQ is beating out AK as a hand to push with. AK only truly fears AA. even against KK you're only a 1-2 dog. QQ, though, you better hope they have AK or QQ (or JJ?!) when the chips go in. i guess i just don't like being dominated... anybody else feel the same?

[HurricaneKyle 0]

Knowing how Daniel Negreanu plays, I would reraise with considerably less than QQ. I would consider and often reraise with JJ or TT. It is all about table image. Your image, and the image of the person you are up against. If this was Dan Harrington or Dewey Tomko, I'd strongly consider folding and only reraise with AA or KK, but in this case its one of the loosest players in the tournament, so I don't need as big a hand to make this play. If I had projected a supertight image, I certainly would. If my image was really loose, then its a much trickier problem and folding would definitely be an option. I'm very surprised Daniel laid down Kings, because I thought his main goal in a tournament was to accumulate chips so he would be a major threat later in the tournament instead of merely surviving and making the money. I'm sure he had good reason to feel he was beat.

[crowTrobot 2]

I don't think it is quite that cut and dry. There are so many more players today of different calibers that you can't automatically assume that they are all good enough to know when to push and when not to.There are so many bad players that they could just as easily be pushing with just about any holdings.

exacty. that's why these tourneys pare down so quickly even with meaningless blinds.

[Royal_Tour 0]

i'm a bit surprised that QQ is beating out AK as a hand to push with. AK only truly fears AA. even against KK you're only a 1-2 dog. QQ, though, you better hope they have AK or QQ (or JJ?!) when the chips go in. i guess i just don't like being dominated... anybody else feel the same?

KK vs. AKits 70-30.. more than a 2-1.

[scottyno 0]

are we assuming in this situation that it is daniel negreanu we are playing? if so i might be more likely to move in with a hand like qq or ak, because i know there is a chance he will fold his kings. if i am playing a total amateur they arent laying down there if they have kings

[DCSports92GSR 0]

who knows what he had. most internet players push there with 99 or greater. i say call. if your up against aces, tuff luck... but im not folding that.

[Tommyhawkers 0]

Look at this donkey! He folded KK preflop in a cash game...http://fullcontactpoker.com/poker-forums/v...pic.php?t=28822He was a 2:1 favorite, my God is he tarded.

[crowTrobot 2]

in his new blog DN says the opponent was a novice. all the more reason for DN to assume the guy is gonna base what he's suppose to be doing on poker hands shown on TV, and will be slow-playing AA and pushing with everything else right down to small pairs.

[HurricaneKyle 0]

After reading the blog, I can't fault Daniel at all for folding considering his opponents behavior and the awesome blind structure. I'm sure Daniel wouldn't have folded if the blinds were escalating quickly.

[iveyfan30 0]

let me ask another question? if dn hasnt been on major downswing the last few months does he fold there? did not wanting to bust out outweigh wanting to double up there? i dont have a defenite answer, i just think its a good question.imho i think maybe the dn of 04 pushes there...but like i said im merly speculating for the sake of sparking a hopfeully lively debate ...

[JimmyWellington 1]

Are some of you guys serious? You really think that he's not going to have AA almost every time in that situation?

[na3r0k 0]

The thing is if i was playing against dn i would just move in preflop with aa-qq/ak mainly because i know he would out play me after the flop =P.

[KowboyKoop 0]

The thing is if i was playing against dn i would just move in preflop with aa-qq/ak mainly because i know he would out play me after the flop =P.

The one time DN lays down KK preflop, he is wrong. However, I believe Hellmuth has done it three times, and he has been right every single time!!!!!!! I guess that proves it, Hellmuth is way better than Negreanu will ever be........swseriously though, bad fold, come on, take a chance.

[PhilHellmuth 0]

i often lay down AA if i feel bad karma. :dance: im the :realplayer: hellmuth

[augmented 0]

people saying that since negreanu is such a creative player that it somehow makes sense to push with QQ here are kinda missing the mark on DN's style.DN is not a preflop player. he does not rereraise with crap hands. he might call with something marginal and try to see a big flop, but in this respect, he is not juanda. DN needs a big hand to rereraise here, just because he's seen as LAG does not mean he's gonna make some retarded move like this.so, the other guy should know that DN has a hand. in my opinion, DN must have AA, KK, or AKs here. i think that he just calls with QQ for the same reason, that he is so good postflop.the other guy made a mistake, and i don't fault him for folding here. he was wrong, oh well. in general, the other guy has aces.

[crowTrobot 2]

Are some of you guys serious? You really think that he's not going to have AA almost every time in that situation?

of course not

[majorleag 0]

When I first read the blog this morning and saw that Daniel's opponent talked and told him he had an unbeatable hand, for a moment I thought okay I see now why he laid them down since this guy convinced him that he had the Aces.But then I gave it some more thought, and I am not claiming here that I would not also have fallen for this guys ruse, but think about it, if he really does hold Aces, doesn't he want Daniel to call?Of course he does!What is one of the basic tells we are all taught? Strong=WeakWeak=StrongAgain I may have fallen for this guys line, hey it is impossible for your hand to beat me!Shouldn't Daniel though as a pro taken a couple more seconds and asked himself, would this guy really tell me he has Aces, especially when he has a chance to not only significantly increase his chip stack early but also bust out one one of the pros?Very few players would be sophisticated enough to even try such a reverse play in general but esepcially against a pro.I received Aces 3 times in about 6 hands in a B&M casino and the third time when a guy pushed I told him I had Aces, (Yes I know now, but didn't then that you are not allowed/supposed to do that), I told him I had them because I was almost certain he would not believe me and call and he did with Ace,Queen and I crushed him.Having said that I certainly would not say I have Aces in most cases or imply I had Aces again in the future. I definitely would not say it against a pro, if I have Aces I am going to say nothing in the hopes that Daniel will call.Again while there is no doubt that Daniel is a great poker player and easily among the best in the world, laying down Kings is almost always a bad move pre-flop and with this guy telling him he was beat, this guy had to believe he was up against Aces, Kings or Ace, King and he did NOT want Daniel to call.He got outplayed in this case by a reverse tell by an amateur.

[loxo 0]

let me ask another question? if dn hasnt been on major downswing the last few months does he fold there? did not wanting to bust out outweigh wanting to double up there? i dont have a defenite answer, i just think its a good question.imho i think maybe the dn of 04 pushes there...but like i said im merly speculating for the sake of sparking a hopfeully lively debate ...

I agree, again just an opinion but the in form uber agressive DN plays to win and would love to get his chips in here IMHO.Cmon DN, believe in yourself.............we all do!!!!!!!!